A Little Season

[TribulationSigns]

Thank you for the replies. I have no comment because this is a lot to digest. Thank you though!

Yeah. I know it’s a long post. I’m not even done yet. Take your time.

 

[David in NJ]

You talk so cryptic. You often sound like you are on something or drunk.

Post 194 has been CLEARED UP

 

[WPM]

Good point - Thank You

In Genesis God used "mud" and CLEARED it UP to make a Man = Adam = and from Adam HE made a woman - Eve his wife

You have heard the saying "two is company and three is a crowd"

Well the Serpent showed up uninvited and from there the waters became very MUDDY with SIN

God SAVED the Day when He came to earth and CLEAR UP the Mud of Sin on the Cross

Adding Blessing upon Blessing JESUS then went back to the FATHER so that the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH could come to us.

Because even after our sins are forgiven, there is 6000+ years of Muddy water that needs Clearing UP from our hearts and minds.

What has this to do with anything we are discussing? Nothing. Again, you avoid the issues because your doctrine does not add up.

 

[Davy]

How is it that 70 AD's destruction of the temple back then was worse than what we see in this generation? Have we not seen much worse tribulations since then? I am curious and not trying to argue. We all have our beliefs and mine have changed over the decades. This is a genuine question, and the verses I quoted only seem to say it will be WORSE than the world has ever seen or ever will see.
Thank you!

Joel 2:2
"a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like the dawn overspreading the mountains a great and strong army appears, such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come." Bigger than the World Wars? Bigger than the genocides of the world?

Matt. 24:21
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

But still, when we weigh all the relevant Bible Scripture, the coming great tribulation is not going to be about war, and that army in the Book of Joel does not mean a literal army like with military weapons and such. God is only using the locust army as an example of how Satan's little workers on earth in the last days eat up the wealth of His people, comparing their takeover like wild locusts grazing off a field and bark off a tree.

So those who keep wrongly interpreting the "great tribulation" at the end like it will be WWIII simply have not done enough Bible study to understand how God uses symbolic images of things in His creation to represent a working by man.

Only after a few verses in Joel 1 one should easily realize God is using symbols of natural things to represent a people that take over the land of His people in the last days...

Joel 1:2-11
2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

God asks, has this happened yet in your day? Then tell your children about it, and their children, another generation; even to the end of the world actually. That lets us know this prophesy was not something that was fulfilled in Old Testament times.

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

Those are four stages of the development of the locust. God's Message is how the locust develops, each continuing stage eats what the previous stage left. It's symbolic for completeness by the locust, it won't miss eating everything in its path.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

The "new wine" is a symbol for understanding Truth in God's Word full strength. Recall Jesus' parable that you don't put new wine into old bottles.

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

There it is. The locusts represent "a nation" that comes upon God's land He gave to His people. That nation is about Satan's host on earth, the world controllers of today that are forming a one world government in prep for Satan to come to earth and reign, as the "another Jesus" which Apostle Paul warned us about (2 Cor.11).

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
KJV

The above God is giving as an example of how His people will be stressed out when the locust army shows up and takes over everything. They will be powerless to do anything about it.

Joel 1:13-15
13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
KJV

When the symbolic locust army attacks at the end of this world, taking over all nations, that "day of the Lord" destruction by God will be just around the corner with Christ's return.

The 2nd Chapter of the Book of Joel continues those locust symbol associations attacking like a military army. But it's not a real military army, but God is only using how an army attacks for how the locusts work at the end. At Joel 2:25 when the locust attack is over, God said He will restore to His people what the locusts ate, and even calls those locusts His great army He sent among His people.

In both Joel 1 and Joel 2 are parallels to the lion's teeth and battle horses of the locust army in Revelation 9.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Greetings, may mercy, grace and peace be ever upon you.

I've known the Lord Jesus for 35 years, He is my Life and my Love.
I was raised Southern Baptist and was instructed in the futurist view of eschatology since as far back as I can remember. Around the time the Spirit of Christ came into my heart, before or after I cannot be certain, I came to the understanding that at least some of what I had been taught was in error, particularly the pre-trib rapture.

Over the course of my Christian walk I never gave it much more thought. Prophecy was never my thing, but I rather preferred to spend my time in the word focusing on how to live the Christian life. Which by no means should imply that I have ever done so perfectly.

I'm much older now, and having grown much closer to Christ in my later years, have begun to look more deeply into those things which previously held little interest for me.

One of those things is eschatology. When surfing the forums and interacting with other believers, it has occurred to me that of all the views put forth from the various camps, there seem to be only four major schools of thought, and the arguments between the adherents of each particular view are endless.

Conspicuously absent from any discussion of eschatology is the idea that we may actually be in the Little Season.

As I said, I never had much interest in end times prophecies or projections, much less debate on what I see as peripheral issues. So when I did begin to look into these things more deeply, I was not coming from a place of any preconceived notions, inherent bias, or theological indoctrinations.
This provided me with the capacity to evaluate the texts with clear eyes and a fresh perspective

For the sake of total transparency, I am completely opposed to any eschatological framework that has its roots in dispensational theology, as I am absolutely convinced that so called christian Zionism is the prime source of much of the evil that presently plagues our world, and perhaps the very last days deception that the scriptures warn about, at the least, it plays a significant role.

Neither at this time am I open to any discussion of the amillenial view, as I am not inclined to argue over the plainly stated words of Holy Scriptures.

The only view that would claim that we could be in Satan's little season now is Amillennialism, so I have no idea why you would not be open to discuss that view.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

There is not just normal tribulation, there will be "GREAT" tribulation such as has never been seen before on earth because Satan will be loosed and allowed to overcome "ALL" the Churches as judgment. The light has been put out, the witness or testimony of the saints unto Salvation is ended. That we see this darkness is not progressive revelation, but something we recognize because it is something that has never happened before! Some people claimed it was in 70A.D. are incorrect,

I agree "great tribulation" is not pointing to the literal destruction in 70 AD. We are close in our understanding, but I believe "great tribulation" is what has come and shall continue to come to the Church throughout the whole age of time given the Church while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. I believe it is "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" .......

Because Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell cannot prevent it, Satan is a defeated foe from the foundation of the world. For this reason, God allows Satan to test/try and at times overcome the Church, but never completely. Christ promises that though tribulation will be great, it will always be cut short to assure there will always be a faithful elect of God to make sure the Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete at the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth. It is through this trial and testing from the very beginning of building the Spiritual Kingdom of God that brings "great tribulation" to the whole body of Christ, called 'Church'. History shows us the Church is being built by the blood of the martyrs, many will remain faithful unto death, but God will always preserve a remnant alive that the Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete before the last/seventh trumpet sounds.

The purpose of this trial/testing that God allows the Church on earth to endure is not only to strengthen our faith in Christ, but also to teach us that we cannot have victory over all evil without God, through the Spirit sent from Christ being in us. Just as Christ did, so too, His disciples must learn obedience through suffering.

Hebrews 5:7-8 (KJV) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Philippians 2:8 (KJV) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 12:2-4 (KJV) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The words Christ speaks to His disciples are not things limited to first century Jews in unbelief. Christ speaks of things that shall come unto the Church in which believers are, throughout the whole gospel age. The words of Christ, though manifested physically, speak of things that shall come through spiritual warfare onto the Church of earth as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Knowing that tribulation against the Church would be greater than any other tribulation ever known to mankind, Christ says "And the gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Christ was not speaking of the end of the Old Covenant that would come 70 AD. This great tribulation wasn't the judgment through God's wrath that came in 70 AD. Christ is warning us of much more than only the Old coming to an end.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

History proves "great tribulation" is something the Church on earth, as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, has been on-going, relentless, and almost constant from the moment Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. Yes, as a testimony to the Power of Almighty God, Satan and his mighty foes have not been able, nor shall they ever be able to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth.

God permits these mighty forces of evil to do battle against His Church on earth, therefore every believer is called to FIGHT to prove, "greater is He that is in you, then he that is in this world." Our foes are many, but our God is GREATER than all.

Matthew 16:17-19 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree "great tribulation" is not pointing to the literal destruction in 70 AD. We are close in our understanding, but I believe "great tribulation" is what has come and shall continue to come to the Church throughout the whole age of time given the Church while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. I believe it is "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" .......

Because Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell cannot prevent it, Satan is a defeated foe from the foundation of the world. For this reason, God allows Satan to test/try and at times overcome the Church, but never completely. Christ promises that though tribulation will be great, it will always be cut short to assure there will always be a faithful elect of God to make sure the Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete at the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth. It is through this trial and testing from the very beginning of building the Spiritual Kingdom of God that brings "great tribulation" to the whole body of Christ, called 'Church'. History shows us the Church is being built by the blood of the martyrs, many will remain faithful unto death, but God will always preserve a remnant alive that the Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete before the last/seventh trumpet sounds.

The purpose of this trial/testing that God allows the Church on earth to endure is not only to strengthen our faith in Christ, but also to teach us that we cannot have victory over all evil without God, through the Spirit sent from Christ being in us. Just as Christ did, so too, His disciples must learn obedience through suffering.

Hebrews 5:7-8 (KJV) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Philippians 2:8 (KJV) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 12:2-4 (KJV) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The words Christ speaks to His disciples are not things limited to first century Jews in unbelief. Christ speaks of things that shall come unto the Church in which believers are, throughout the whole gospel age. The words of Christ, though manifested physically, speak of things that shall come through spiritual warfare onto the Church of earth as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Knowing that tribulation against the Church would be greater than any other tribulation ever known to mankind, Christ says "And the gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Christ was not speaking of the end of the Old Covenant that would come 70 AD. This great tribulation wasn't the judgment through God's wrath that came in 70 AD. Christ is warning us of much more than only the Old coming to an end.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

History proves "great tribulation" is something the Church on earth, as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, has been on-going, relentless, and almost constant from the moment Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. Yes, as a testimony to the Power of Almighty God, Satan and his mighty foes have not been able, nor shall they ever be able to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth.

God permits these mighty forces of evil to do battle against His Church on earth, therefore every believer is called to FIGHT to prove, "greater is He that is in you, then he that is in this world." Our foes are many, but our God is GREATER than all.

Matthew 16:17-19 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Wonderful extrapolation - thank you

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree "great tribulation" is not pointing to the literal destruction in 70 AD. We are close in our understanding, but I believe "great tribulation" is what has come and shall continue to come to the Church throughout the whole age of time given the Church while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. I believe it is "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" .......

Okay... close... Let me try this.

Revelation 7:9-10

• After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
• And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb...
  

Reelation 7:13-15

• "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
• And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

Revelation 7:9-10 is addressing the sealing of ALL Israel, representing ALL believers who have overcome in Christ and are servants of God so that they reign with Christ. That includes the Old Testament Elect. Starting from Adam and Eve to the Last Elect of mankind. They are those who have endured the tribulation of standing for Christ since the fall of man. It is not tribulation of the Cross, but the tribulation that is in the world that they overcame in Him. This tribulation is "great" because it covers the whole length of time from Adam to the Last Elect as we all Elect, shall suffer tribulation of sort.

However in Matthew 24, Christ is talking about the different "great tribulation" specifically for a short season after the sealing of Israel, the testimony of Two witnesses is finished, and the loosening of Satan.

Matthew 24:21-22

• For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is a unique great tribulation, specifically for the end time, that was not like the tribulation from the beginning of the world or shall be. It is the "little season" of the Great Tribulation for the Saints at that time which it is more severity than the rest of the great tribulation of all time. When Christ speaks in Matthew 24 about the coming Great Tribulation, He is obviously not talking about the cross, something present, or something imminent. It is a little season of a time of trouble for "God's People" that they are to prepare for and not succumb to it. That's what people mean when they say we have to carefully "consider the context" when comparing Scripture with Scripture. The context is not the cross, but the power to endure this coming time when iniquity will increase, love grow cold and false prophets abound. It is a trial on earth that will overtake the election.

That's all for now as I need to step out.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Noah's day saw the immediate rescue of all the elect and saw the immediate destruction of all the wicked. That is the way it is going to be when Jesus comes. That forbids premillennialism.

Right. How is it that Premils don't see His point in the following passage about the scope of destruction that will occur at His second coming being equal to the scope of destruction that happened in Noah's day with the flood?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [a]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Notice verses 35 and 36 here. Premils either ignore or somehow miss what Jesus said there. He indicated that heaven and earth will pass away. In verse 36, He is saying that no one knows the the day heaven and earth will pass away. Then He proceeds to relate that directly to His second coming. Which means the day of His second coming is the day that heaven and earth will pass away. Which agrees with what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

And Premils also somehow don't see how Jesus pointed out that the flood in Noah's day "took them all away" (destroyed all unbelievers) and then saying "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". He clearly indicated that just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day, all unbelievers will be killed at His second coming. Only extreme doctrinal bias can prevent anyone from seeing that. And that lines up with Him saying that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes. It makes sense that if earth passes away, no unbeliever can survive that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree "great tribulation" is not pointing to the literal destruction in 70 AD. We are close in our understanding, but I believe "great tribulation" is what has come and shall continue to come to the Church throughout the whole age of time given the Church while the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. I believe it is "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" .......

Because Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell cannot prevent it, Satan is a defeated foe from the foundation of the world. For this reason, God allows Satan to test/try and at times overcome the Church, but never completely. Christ promises that though tribulation will be great, it will always be cut short to assure there will always be a faithful elect of God to make sure the Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete at the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth. It is through this trial and testing from the very beginning of building the Spiritual Kingdom of God that brings "great tribulation" to the whole body of Christ, called 'Church'. History shows us the Church is being built by the blood of the martyrs, many will remain faithful unto death, but God will always preserve a remnant alive that the Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete before the last/seventh trumpet sounds.

The purpose of this trial/testing that God allows the Church on earth to endure is not only to strengthen our faith in Christ, but also to teach us that we cannot have victory over all evil without God, through the Spirit sent from Christ being in us. Just as Christ did, so too, His disciples must learn obedience through suffering.

Hebrews 5:7-8 (KJV) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Philippians 2:8 (KJV) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 12:2-4 (KJV) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The words Christ speaks to His disciples are not things limited to first century Jews in unbelief. Christ speaks of things that shall come unto the Church in which believers are, throughout the whole gospel age. The words of Christ, though manifested physically, speak of things that shall come through spiritual warfare onto the Church of earth as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Knowing that tribulation against the Church would be greater than any other tribulation ever known to mankind, Christ says "And the gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Christ was not speaking of the end of the Old Covenant that would come 70 AD. This great tribulation wasn't the judgment through God's wrath that came in 70 AD. Christ is warning us of much more than only the Old coming to an end.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

History proves "great tribulation" is something the Church on earth, as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, has been on-going, relentless, and almost constant from the moment Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. Yes, as a testimony to the Power of Almighty God, Satan and his mighty foes have not been able, nor shall they ever be able to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth.

God permits these mighty forces of evil to do battle against His Church on earth, therefore every believer is called to FIGHT to prove, "greater is He that is in you, then he that is in this world." Our foes are many, but our God is GREATER than all.

Matthew 16:17-19 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So, you don't think that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22? I believe it clearly is and that passage is referring to "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people". Which would indicate that the great tribulation/great distress that Jesus talked about was related to God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews, which is exactly what happened in 70 AD.

Jesus also talked about His future second coming at the end of the age, of course, so I'm not intending to support preterism here. Just pointing out that Jesus talked about both events.

 

[rwb]

Okay... close... Let me try this.

Revelation 7:9-10

• After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
• And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb...

Reelation 7:13-15

• "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
• And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

Revelation 7:9-10 is addressing the sealing of ALL Israel, representing ALL believers who have overcome in Christ and are servants of God so that they reign with Christ. That includes the Old Testament Elect. Starting from Adam and Eve to the Last Elect of mankind. They are those who have endured the tribulation of standing for Christ since the fall of man. It is not tribulation of the Cross, but the tribulation that is in the world that they overcame in Him. This tribulation is "great" because it covers the whole length of time from Adam to the Last Elect as we all Elect, shall suffer tribulation of sort.

However in Matthew 24, Christ is talking about the different "great tribulation" specifically for a short season after the sealing of Israel, the testimony of Two witnesses is finished, and the loosening of Satan.

Matthew 24:21-22

• For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is a unique great tribulation, specifically for the end time, that was not like the tribulation from the beginning of the world or shall be. It is the "little season" of the Great Tribulation for the Saints at that time which it is more severity than the rest of the great tribulation of all time. When Christ speaks in Matthew 24 about the coming Great Tribulation, He is obviously not talking about the cross, something present, or something imminent. It is a little season of a time of trouble for "God's People" that they are to prepare for and not succumb to it. That's what people mean when they say we have to carefully "consider the context" when comparing Scripture with Scripture. The context is not the cross, but the power to endure this coming time when iniquity will increase, love grow cold and false prophets abound. It is a trial on earth that will overtake the election.

That's all for now as I need to step out.

It's not that I disagree with great tribulation becoming more and more intense as the Kingdom of God in heaven grows through preaching the gospel. Especially during Satan's little season, I agree this time will surely be greater tribulation for those saints still alive when a thousand years of symbolic time has expired.

I view great tribulation for saints of Old not that which comes from preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God as we find after Christ literally comes with the Kingdom of God. The sealing in Rev 7 begins first with 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Sealed prior to the four winds being loosed to blow upon the whole earth. Four winds symbolizing the universal nature of the sealing through the Messenger "ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God:" Before the Spirit of Christ was sent unto all the earth, the 144,000 saints of Old must first be spiritually sealed because they lived and died before the advent of Christ then sending His Spirit to give spiritual life universally. They must be sealed to ascend to heaven spiritually alive. These 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel most assuredly shall be spiritually alive in heaven with the innumerable multitude from all the world. Once the Old Covenant 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel ascended to heaven with Christ through His Spirit, then the angels (spirit messengers) holding back the wind universally loosed (four) the winds and the gospel of the Kingdom of God giving salvation through the Lamb was sent unto all nations, kindreds, people and tongue. The innumerable multitude of people who have and are being saved as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached and John see the Kingdom of God in heaven when it is complete with all throughout the earth who have been eternally saved both before and after the cross and resurrection.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

The saints of Old are the souls of them slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held, but they were not martyred for preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God they could not have known before Christ came to earth with the Kingdom. The saints of Old were not beheaded for the witness of Jesus, because they did not yet know Him. That name 'Jesus' would not be known until Christ was given that name when He was born. That's the difference between the persecuted saints of Old, who foretell of the Messiah to come, but did not live to be witness of Jesus.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

So, you don't think that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22? I believe it clearly is and that passage is referring to "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people". Which would indicate that the great tribulation/great distress that Jesus talked about was related to God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews, which is exactly what happened in 70 AD.

Jesus also talked about His future second coming at the end of the age, of course, so I'm not intending to support preterism here. Just pointing out that Jesus talked about both events.

Both Matthew and Luke write of things that will come to the nation of Old EXCLUSIVELY through the wrath of God, however, nowhere is it stipulated great tribulation beginning with the abomination of desolation shall be in 70 AD.

 

[David in NJ]

My last post addressed and refuted what you are saying here yet you still continue to promote your view. I refer you back.

You can never refute the words of Christ except thru unbelief.

 

[WPM]

You can never refute the words of Christ except thru unbelief.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance of Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Our Lord is telling us here that the casting out devils is proof that His kingdom has come. He highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. This was proof that He was indeed the true Messiah and that He carried all power over Satan.

As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Christ said: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.” This was a direct reference to the unchallenged power of Satan over the nations in the Old Testament. The vast territory of the Gentile nations was under his evil control. He governed the nations at will and operated in an unmolested environment – thus “his goods” were said to be “in peace.”

Satan’s wicked grip over the nations was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many millions were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [Gr. deo] him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[David in NJ]

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance of Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Our Lord is telling us here that the casting out devils is proof that His kingdom has come. He highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. This was proof that He was indeed the true Messiah and that He carried all power over Satan.

As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Christ said: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.” This was a direct reference to the unchallenged power of Satan over the nations in the Old Testament. The vast territory of the Gentile nations was under his evil control. He governed the nations at will and operated in an unmolested environment – thus “his goods” were said to be “in peace.”

Satan’s wicked grip over the nations was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many millions were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [Gr. deo] him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

Never assume you posting a page of scripture will overcome the Truth of Christs words that expose the error of Amill.

 

[David in NJ]

What are you scared of? You have no answer to the truth. That is why you constantly avoid, have no rebuttal and are full of noise.

Your belief system has been exposed as fraudulent.

JESUS Said so

You should be terrified and you should run to the LORD asking for forgiveness and for Him to open your understanding as HE has done for so many bound in religion.

 

[WPM]

Never assume you posting a page of scripture will overcome the Truth of Christs words that expose the error of Amill.

As you engage online with Premils, you start to notice that 1 Peter 5:8 seems to be many of their most popular quoted Scripture in the Bible outside of Revelation 20. Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” Premils stop here. They go no further. The reason is: they are determined to elevate the power of Satan and degrade the power of Christ and His Church during this current new covenant age. They (notably) never quote the very next verse. 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us. That is because since the binding of Satan, Christ has given us power over him. He is a defeated foe!

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

The root problem is:

• Premil has a big devil and a small god.
• Premil has a big devil and an impotent powerless Church.

Amils have the opposite. They have a conquering Christ who has empowered the Church to invade Satan’s territory and see him defeated everywhere the light of the Gospel is received throughout the nations.

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

This is an incredible promise from God. It is a massive speak! When Christians function in the power of the Holy Spirit and exercise the heavenly authority delegated to them, they strip Satan of His power.

When they are tuned into heaven, when they are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power of God ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross, we have complete authority over the enemy. He cannot do what he wants with us. We are protected by God and armed with real potent spiritual power. We merely have to submit to God, resist the devil and he must flee from us.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luke 9:1 records: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

 

[Nancy]

But still, when we weigh all the relevant Bible Scripture, the coming great tribulation is not going to be about war, and that army in the Book of Joel does not mean a literal army like with military weapons and such. God is only using the locust army as an example of how Satan's little workers on earth in the last days eat up the wealth of His people, comparing their takeover like wild locusts grazing off a field and bark off a tree.

So those who keep wrongly interpreting the "great tribulation" at the end like it will be WWIII simply have not done enough Bible study to understand how God uses symbolic images of things in His creation to represent a working by man.

Only after a few verses in Joel 1 one should easily realize God is using symbols of natural things to represent a people that take over the land of His people in the last days...

Joel 1:2-11
2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

God asks, has this happened yet in your day? Then tell your children about it, and their children, another generation; even to the end of the world actually. That lets us know this prophesy was not something that was fulfilled in Old Testament times.

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

Those are four stages of the development of the locust. God's Message is how the locust develops, each continuing stage eats what the previous stage left. It's symbolic for completeness by the locust, it won't miss eating everything in its path.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

The "new wine" is a symbol for understanding Truth in God's Word full strength. Recall Jesus' parable that you don't put new wine into old bottles.

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

There it is. The locusts represent "a nation" that comes upon God's land He gave to His people. That nation is about Satan's host on earth, the world controllers of today that are forming a one world government in prep for Satan to come to earth and reign, as the "another Jesus" which Apostle Paul warned us about (2 Cor.11).

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
KJV

The above God is giving as an example of how His people will be stressed out when the locust army shows up and takes over everything. They will be powerless to do anything about it.

Joel 1:13-15
13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
KJV

When the symbolic locust army attacks at the end of this world, taking over all nations, that "day of the Lord" destruction by God will be just around the corner with Christ's return.

The 2nd Chapter of the Book of Joel continues those locust symbol associations attacking like a military army. But it's not a real military army, but God is only using how an army attacks for how the locusts work at the end. At Joel 2:25 when the locust attack is over, God said He will restore to His people what the locusts ate, and even calls those locusts His great army He sent among His people.

In both Joel 1 and Joel 2 are parallels to the lion's teeth and battle horses of the locust army in Revelation 9.

Thanks Davy...this is too much for my pea brain to decipher . I've so much more even, to understand in Eschatology. There are too many views on this subject and, they are tossing such confusion around, it is hard to determine which one to believe anymore. But I do thank you for your reply.

 

[rwb]

So, you don't think that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22? I believe it clearly is and that passage is referring to "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people". Which would indicate that the great tribulation/great distress that Jesus talked about was related to God's wrath upon unbelieving Jews, which is exactly what happened in 70 AD.

Jesus also talked about His future second coming at the end of the age, of course, so I'm not intending to support preterism here. Just pointing out that Jesus talked about both events.

Both Matthew and Luke write of things that will come to the nation of Old EXCLUSIVELY through the wrath of God, however, nowhere is it stipulated great tribulation beginning with the abomination of desolation shall be in 70 AD.

You're allowing Preterit doctrine to influence you. Preterits want us to forget that first and foremost Christ is speaking to His DISCIPLES (not ethnic Jews in unbelief) about what faithful saints will come against as they/we preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world. Great affliction/tribulation was ordained for them/us not 30-40 years later with the literal destruction of the city and temple. No, great affliction/tribulation, just as Christ describes began with the earliest disciples of Christ. Stephen in the earliest ages of the Church was stoned to death because He preached in the name of Christ. This is what Christ meant when He says, "ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."

These first disciples of Christ, having come from the Old Covenant Law and Prophets, couldn't imagine a literal Kingdom of God that did not physically include Jerusalem and the Temple. That's why Christ warns them of the impending destruction, reminding them that when they see the signs approaching, they should flee from the city, otherwise they would not live to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

The days/years leading up to the physical destruction had already been great affliction/tribulation for the faithful disciples of God from the cross forward. This too was ordained by God to be the means for which Christ's disciples would be scattered throughout the nations, fleeing persecution and death, proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God with them as they went, the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven being built as they remained faithful unto death.

Notice the gospel of Luke says much about the literal destruction of the physical city and temple, speaking more clearly he writes that when the armies surround Jerusalem, knowing its destruction is imminent they should flee to the mountains not because this is great affliction/tribulation the Church is called to endure. Rather, Luke says "these be the days of vengeance." Vengeance is retribution/punishment for the nation Christ calls them a nation, "that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee."

Matthew 23:38 (KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 21:20-22 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The days of vengeance that all things ordained to come against the city which are written may be fulfilled. This is not great affliction/tribulation for faithfulness to God that would come against the Church as She seeks to build the spiritual Kingdom of God by proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world, until the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given the Church for building shall be no longer.

Vengeance from God for faithlessness is ordained for the physical city and temple and all who remain in unbelief, but great tribulation/affliction is ordained for the faithful saints; the Church, as She is faithful unto death as we proclaim eternal life to whosoever among mankind shall believe the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[David in NJ]

You're allowing Preterit doctrine to influence you. Preterits want us to forget that first and foremost Christ is speaking to His DISCIPLES (not ethnic Jews) about what faithful saints will come against as they/we preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world. Great affliction/tribulation was ordained for them/us not 30-40 years later with the literal destruction of the city and temple. No, great affliction/tribulation, just as Christ describes began with the earliest disciples of Christ. Stephen in the earliest ages of the Church was stoned to death because He preached in the name of Christ. This is what Christ meant when He says, "ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."

These first disciples of Christ, having come from the Old Covenant Law and Prophets, couldn't imagine a literal Kingdom of God that did not physically include Jerusalem and the Temple. That's why Christ warns them of the impending destruction, reminding them that when they see the signs approaching, they should flee from the city, otherwise they would not live to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

The days/years leading up to the physical destruction had already been great affliction/tribulation for the faithful disciples of God from the cross forward. This too was ordained by God to be the means for which Christ's disciples would be scattered throughout the nations, fleeing persecution and death, proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God with them as they went, the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven being built as they remained faithful unto death.

Notice the gospel of Luke says much about the literal destruction of the physical city and temple, speaking more clearly he writes that when the armies surround Jerusalem, knowing its destruction is imminent they should flee to the mountains not because this is great affliction/tribulation the Church is called to endure. Rather, Luke says "these be the days of vengeance." Vengeance is retribution/punishment for the nation Christ calls them a nation, "that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee."

Matthew 23:38 (KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 21:20-22 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The days of vengeance that all things ordained to come against the city which are written may be fulfilled. This is not great affliction/tribulation for faithfulness to God that would come against the Church as She seeks to build the spiritual Kingdom of God by proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world, until the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given the Church for building shall be no longer.

Vengeance from God for faithlessness is ordained for the physical city and temple and all who remain in unbelief, but great tribulation/affliction is ordained for the faithful saints; the Church, as She is faithful unto death as we proclaim eternal life to whosoever among mankind shall believe the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:4-14 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

You post is excellent

If you get rid of the labels, including amill, you only have JESUS = which is our HIGH CALLING and GOAL

A literal 1,000 years came from the Mouth of God = it never came from man

If you believe satan is locked up sealed in prison now/today then you fall short of the Glory of GOD's WORD.
When i say "fall short" i am NOT questioning your Salvation in CHRIST

Every teaching that denies even one Word of Truth from the mouth of GOD in Revelation must be tossed in the garbage bin.

JESUS Said: "I know where you live and where Satan's seat is..........who dwells in your midst" = Revelation ch 2 Pergamum

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