Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

Infant baptism, still doesn't make any sense. Your support of it, is not based on any scripture. We don't find a single example of an infant being baptised and the Lord Jesus never asked His disciples to baptise children. So I must conclude that your view is based on your private unbiblical opinion.

You have bundled the all of the various contexts, in which the bible speaks of the Temple and tried twist them and force them to fit a single context.
You can't claim that the physical brick and mortar building and Christ's body are the same thing. So your opinion is dead wrong because if you were right that would mean that God the Father destroyed the body of Christ forever, as He did to the Jewish temple which He deliberately destroyed, to never reinstate the Jewish temple again.

I'm not sure what you motive is for attempting to breath life back into something which God completely destroyed forever. He even said that the burnt offerings of the Jews was a stench in His nostrils, so just accept that it's dead and it's never going to return.

I'm sure you're aware of the fact as I have previously mentioned, those under the old (redundant) dead covenant were saved by continuously sacrificing animals and keeping the law of Moses. But the Lord Jesus put an end to the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant.

There have only been two covenants, the old covenant was the covenant of "the law" and the new covenant is "the covenant of grace"

This post if for Pinseeker,,,he can reply to you - i'm sure he'll do a better job than I can...

However, two points:

You should know that there are more than two Covenants.
I've taught about 7 and there are more than that.

Just for your information.
They start with the Edenic and end with the New.

We don't need to keep any law or commandment to be saved, and we are not saved by "race" but we are saved by "grace" and that not of ourselves, lest anyone boast.

Here are a few verses of scripture to help you understand this truth.

Acts 15:1, 5: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved'... But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, saying, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.'" (This led to the Council at Jerusalem, which determined that the law was not necessary for Gentile salvation).

Galatians 15:1, 5: Paul recounts his confrontation with Peter, who had stopped eating with Gentiles due to pressure from "the circumcision party," an action that implied keeping Jewish customs was necessary for true Christian fellowship and justification.

We call those who preach the false "works + grace" hybrid version of the gospel (Judaizers). Their version of the gospel is an abomination in the sight of God.

Some Christians are afraid of the word WORKS.
Never understood why since Jesus said we are to ACT ON HIS WORDS...
matthew 7:24 IF we're WISE.

§And if we DO NOT ACT on His words,,,He calls those FOOLISH.


Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

[Christian Soldier]

YOU stated this in post no. 4465:

"In conclusion the ordinance of baptism in nothing in and of itself, it's all about what it symbolises."


Sounds like you're saying that baptism is only valid for what it symbolises...
which is a common belief among some Protestant denominations.

You also stated this.

"The act of pouring water on a baby's head doesn't achieve anything, except to make to poor child cry. God is not pleased with outward religious rituals, "


You see, the bottom line is this: Either baptism means something or it's a waste of everyone's time.
We don't need rituals.
We don't need an outside act/proof of an inner condition. God knows our heart, as you've stated.

We need to believe what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Baptism washes away sin.
Baptism allows the Holy Spirit to indwell within us.

I can dunk you in a pool of water pour pour 100 gallons of water on your head all day long and it would achieve nothing but arouse your wrath.

So you can imagine how ridiculous it to grab a child murdering reprobate and pour water on his head and tell him that his sins have been washed away. I would have both you and the murderer thrown in prison and throw way the keys. What gives you the right to wash away the sins of evil doers, it's a really crazy theology you have there.

Where does the bible say that baptism washes away sin????? answer NOWHERE!!!!

Where does the bible say that baptism allows the Holy Spirit to indwell within us?????? answer NOWHERE!!!!!!! so please stop making up these silly lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
**
What else does Paul teach is required of a believer to be saved/justified/sealed ?
I'm unaware of anything.

Well, looks like you want me to say something else is needed.

OK

How about this:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


Looks like Paul thinks we should have love.

So if we add ANYTHING to FAITH ALONE,,,it means faith alone is not sufficient.

We CAN say that this would fall under OBEDIENCE TO GOD (my number 2) since Jesus did teach that we are to love our enemies..love is a factor.

Jesus also stated that the Apostles were to TEACH and BAPTIZE.

So baptism would seem to be an order that we are to obey.

 

[Christian Soldier]

This post if for Pinseeker,,,he can reply to you - i'm sure he'll do a better job than I can...

However, two points:

You should know that there are more than two Covenants.
I've taught about 7 and there are more than that.

Just for your information.
They start with the Edenic and end with the New.


Some Christians are afraid of the word WORKS.
Never understood why since Jesus said we are to ACT ON HIS WORDS...
matthew 7:24 IF we're WISE.

§And if we DO NOT ACT on His words,,,He calls those FOOLISH.


Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

I don't know of any Christians who are afraid of works, but I know many false Christians who are afraid of works, because they know that Gods wrath abides on them because they can never hope to d any good works. All they can do is evil continuously, until they are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.

There are only two covenants, stop lying about the other five false covenants. You're not a very good liar, because you never provide any fabricated evidence.

 

[rvmb]

Well, looks like you want me to say something else is needed.

OK

How about this:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


Looks like Paul thinks we should have love.

So if we add ANYTHING to FAITH ALONE,,,it means faith alone is not sufficient.

We CAN say that this would fall under OBEDIENCE TO GOD (my number 2) since Jesus did teach that we are to love our enemies..love is a factor.

Jesus also stated that the Apostles were to TEACH and BAPTIZE.

So baptism would seem to be an order that we are to obey.

Paul teaches faith AND to be justified, where ?
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[GodsGrace]

I can dunk you in a pool of water pour pour 100 gallons of water on your head all day long and it would achieve nothing but arouse your wrath.

Why did you say that I should read posts better?
You are REPEATING here what I stated that you said.

You DO believe that baptism means nothing.
This is your prerogative.

But it is NOT what orthodox Christianity believes.

So you can imagine how ridiculous it to grab a child murdering reprobate and pour water on his head and tell him that his sins have been washed away.

Quite a few replies that would apply to this nonsensical statement.
Yes sir...it IS nonssense.

1. A chlld is NOT a murdering reprobate.
The bible teaches that we are responsible for ONLY OUR OWN SINS.
A child has committed no sins.

2. In ADULTS baptism washes away all sins...as does confessing our sins...HOWEVER, Jesus still stated that we are to be baptized and even the Apostles taught this.

I would have both you and the murderer thrown in prison and throw way the keys. What gives you the right to wash away the sins of evil doers, it's a really crazy theology you have there.

It would seem CS, that it is YOUR theology that is off since IT does not agree with orthodox Christianity.
I do believe you know that only your denomination teaches what it does. NO OTHER.

Where does the bible say that baptism washes away sin????? answer NOWHERE!!!!

It's there for sure.
But I have no desire to have any conversation with you.
I do, however, like to point out your mistaken theology,,,
for the sake of those reading along.

Where does the bible say that baptism allows the Holy Spirit to indwell within us?????? answer NOWHERE!!!!!!! so please stop making up these silly lies.

Answer this:
WHERE was the Holy Spirit located in the OT?
WHERE is the Holy Spirit located now (the NT) in believers?

The answer to this very simple question will also answer your question to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know of any Christians who are afraid of works, but I know many false Christians who are afraid of works, because they know that Gods wrath abides on them because they can never hope to d any good works. All they can do is evil continuously, until they are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.

There are only two covenants, stop lying about the other five false covenants. You're not a very good liar, because you never provide any fabricated evidence.

And to YOU,,,,
neither will I. (provide any information)

You could ask Gemini, or any other AI device...
so easy these digital days....

Just ask how many Covenants there are from the OT onward.
To state that there are only TWO is just plain SILLY on your part.

And the reason I do NOT converse with you is because you call me a liar.

Because someone does not agree with you does not make them a liar.
I know Forums that would permanently ban you for doing this.

Go instruct yourself on the Covenants...
They're not even TITLED what the reformed call them.
The reformed have their very own explanation for everything it would seem.

For instance..there's NO SUCH COVENANT as the Covenant of Grace.
DOESN'T EXIST.

At least, not under that title

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul teaches faith AND to be justified, where ?
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Eph 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

But is love a work of THE LAW?

I never discuss works of The Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago...
at least the civil and ceremonial law...
the Moral Law will NEVER be abolished.

All Christians believe in Ephesians 2:8
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH....

It is faith that saves...NOT WORKS.

Do we agree?

 

[rvmb]

But is love a work of THE LAW?

I never discuss works of The Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago...
at least the civil and ceremonial law...
the Moral Law will NEVER be abolished.

All Christians believe in Ephesians 2:8
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH....

It is faith that saves...NOT WORKS.

Do we agree?

Eph 2:8-9 AND :-
Titus 3:5, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
I agree that :-
Scripture teaches we are saved AND sealed by :-Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4
AND though SAVED our works/life lead will be subject to rewards/loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:-
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Cor 5:-
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well, looks like you want me to say something else is needed.

OK

How about this:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


Looks like Paul thinks we should have love.

So if we add ANYTHING to FAITH ALONE,,,it means faith alone is not sufficient.

We CAN say that this would fall under OBEDIENCE TO GOD (my number 2) since Jesus did teach that we are to love our enemies..love is a factor.

Jesus also stated that the Apostles were to TEACH and BAPTIZE.

So baptism would seem to be an order that we are to obey.

You're right to observe that love and obedience are real realities in the Christian life. Scripture is clear that once a person is united to Christ by faith alone and adopted into the covenant family, the fruit of that union necessarily follows. The moral law does not contribute to our justification, but it does accompany our salvation as part of the Spirit’s renewing work.

Sanctification always brings new affections—a genuine desire to walk in the ways God commands, including the commands to love, to obey Christ’s teaching, and to receive the sacraments. These are not conditions for being justified but the evidences and outworkings of a new heart. In other words: they “exist because salvation does,” not as additions to it.

So yes, love matters deeply (1 Cor 13), but as the fruit of a justified life, not a co-cause of justification.

 

[PinSeeker]

Infant baptism, still doesn't make any sense.

To you. I get that. Well, it does, even to you, I think, but you've just made up your mind, and you're dug in on it, and that's that. Yeah, I get it.

Your support of it, is not based on any scripture.

Even though I've supported what I've said with Scripture extensively. Hm.

We don't find a single example of an infant being baptised and the Lord Jesus never asked His disciples to baptise children.

But all the exhortations to be baptized are for the men hearing, and for not only them, but to have their entire households baptized. And we know that God instituted the sacrament of circumcision, which was to be administered at eight days old (in Genesis 17) and that baptism in New Testament times has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant (Colossians 2:11-12). And Jesus did tell his disciples to let the children come to Him...

So I must conclude that your view is based on your private unbiblical opinion.

You can if you want, certainly. <smile>

You have bundled the all of the various contexts, in which the bible speaks of the Temple and tried twist them and force them to fit a single context.

Well no... <smile>

You can't claim that the physical brick and mortar building and Christ's body are the same thing.

I'm not. I didn't. Is that what you think I did? Really? Surely not...

So your opinion is dead wrong because if you were right that would mean that God the Father destroyed the body of Christ forever, as He did to the Jewish temple which He deliberately destroyed, to never reinstate the Jewish temple again.

Well, if that was what I had said, or if that was my opinion... you know, like if I really thought that, then... <smile> Yes, that would be quite ridiculous, I agree. <smile>

I'm not sure what you motive is for attempting to breath life back into something which God completely destroyed forever. He even said that the burnt offerings of the Jews was a stench in His nostrils, so just accept that it's dead and it's never going to return.

I... don't even know what you're talking about here. <smile> The sacrificial system? I mean yeah, that's surely no more...

I'm sure you're aware of the fact as I have previously mentioned, those under the old (redundant) dead covenant were saved by continuously sacrificing animals and keeping the law of Moses. But the Lord Jesus put an end to the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant.

Ah, well, you're right, of course, about Jesus, but really, CS, there is only one everlasting covenant, and Jesus is the perfect embodiment of it. All the old covenants (with Adam (covenant of life), Noah (covenant of liferemade), Abraham (land and a people), Moses (the law), and David (kingship) were lesser manifestations of it, and Jesus is the full manifestation of all the lesser covenants ~ He is the way, the truth, and the life and gives us eternal life in Him, we will be co-heirs of the world with Him and we are children of Abraham and of the promise like Isaac and thus God's people, and Jesus is the Greater David and our forever King. In a very small nutshell, this is Covenant theology (as opposed to Dispensational theology)...

Like I have said, the issue is not understanding ~ and disavowing, I guess ~ the continuity from the Old Testament to the New. And that's not to say that all the laws and other things (like circumcision) in the Old Testament still apply today. But there is a real continuity. Maybe a good way to put it is that the lesser truths of the Old Testament are greater,,, in the sense of final... today, the first example being... <smile> ...Jesus is the second Adam. He's also the true Lamb without blemish, which we read over and over and over about (in the lesser sense) in Leviticus. But on and on and on... Jesus is seen in various ways throughout the Old Testament.

There have only been two covenants, the old covenant was the covenant of "the law" and the new covenant is "the covenant of grace"...

Hmmm, okay, well, who do you think is under the covenant of grace, CS? How far back do you think it goes? I think I know what you're going to say here... <smile>

We don't need to keep any law or commandment to be saved...

Right, we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God (John 3:8). But that surely does not mean that the commandments are defunct, right? And like I said before, the civil and ceremonial laws are no more, but the moral still stands. And again, Jesus is the perfect embodiment of it. And I pointed out what Jesus said in the gospels about the greatest commandment... to love the Lord your God) and the second that is like it; to love your neighbor as yourself... and that on those two commandments hang the entire law (Matthew 22:34-40)...

, and we are not saved by "race" but we are saved by "grace" and that not of ourselves, lest anyone boast.

Um, well yeah, sure, I agree.

Race? Where did that come from? Goodness gracious.

Here are a few verses of scripture to help you understand this truth.

<chuckles>

Acts 15:1, 5: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved'... But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, saying, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.'" (This led to the Council at Jerusalem, which determined that the law was not necessary for Gentile salvation).

Ah, circumcision. I thought that was something you were... well, obsessing on, so to speak. Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about it, and you're either not understanding... or just denying... what the Bible says about it, what it is. Or, sorry, what it was, because baptism has replaced it, as I said, as the sign and seal of the covenant... and therefore is to be administered (baptism) the same way as circumcision was. If it were not, there would be something... something... in the New Testament stating otherwise. But no, the promise ~ which baptism is the sign and seal of now, just as circumcision used to be ~ is for us and all our children. and all those who are far off (Acts 2:38). But yes, as is consistent with this passage in Acts 15, circumcision did not then... and baptism does not now... save. But there is a sign and seal of God's covenant ~ now baptism, as opposed to then when it was circumcision ~ and we are to administer it in the same way, as I said.

Galatians 15:1, 5: Paul recounts his confrontation with Peter, who had stopped eating with Gentiles due to pressure from "the circumcision party," an action that implied keeping Jewish customs was necessary for true Christian fellowship and justification.

Yeah... not relevant to what we're talking about. No foods are forbidden; all God's gifts are blessed to us in Jesus Christ. We agree that circumcision itself is no longer required by God, and that it doesn't ~ never did, actually ~ save. And in that respect, baptism, which has replaced circumcision as the sign and seal of the covenant, God's promise to save, is the same in that baptism in and of itself doesn't save. See above. It is a visual reminder that God does save, and works through families to do so, and as such is a sign and seal of God's promise. Goodness gracious.

We call those who preach the false "works + grace" hybrid version of the gospel (Judaizers). Their version of the gospel is an abomination in the sight of God.

Sure. Agree. <smile> But that applies not to me. <smile>

You're certainly welcome to your opinions, CS. Thanks for your time.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[LoveYeshua]

This post if for Pinseeker,,,he can reply to you - i'm sure he'll do a better job than I can...

However, two points:

You should know that there are more than two Covenants.
I've taught about 7 and there are more than that.

Just for your information.
They start with the Edenic and end with the New.


Some Christians are afraid of the word WORKS.
Never understood why since Jesus said we are to ACT ON HIS WORDS...
matthew 7:24 IF we're WISE.

§And if we DO NOT ACT on His words,,,He calls those FOOLISH.


Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Yes people do not understand works, they have to read James;

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

Jas 2:14-26, NKJV ​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?​

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.​

If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?​

So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.​

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.​

You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.​

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?​

Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?​

You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.​

And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.​

As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.​

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route?​

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.​

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 2:8-9 AND :-
Titus 3:5, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
I agree that :-
Scripture teaches we are saved AND sealed by :-Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4

And sealed?
There are a few verses that state that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..

What do we do with all the verses that state that we can forfeit our salvation?
Most by the very writer that wrote Ephesians and Corinthians where this is mentioned.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


Hebrews 3:1
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Revelation 2:4-5
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


Colossians 1:22-23
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.


And so many more.
ALL of scripture must be reconciled.
We cannot pick out 2 or 3 verses about being sealed and ignore many verses about the possibility of the loss of salvation due to falling away or disobedience.

AND though SAVED our works/life lead will be subject to rewards/loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:-
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please read 1 Corinthians 3 regarding the work of Paul and Apollo.
It does not mean what you THINK it means...it's speaking about the work of ministry and not just barely making heaven.
Catholics use these verses to prove that Purgatory exists...also incorrectly.

2 Cor 5:-
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yes sir...the above is correct.

We will be judged by what we have done.


Romans 2:5-6 PAUL
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


John 5:28-29 JESUS
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right to observe that love and obedience are real realities in the Christian life. Scripture is clear that once a person is united to Christ by faith alone and adopted into the covenant family, the fruit of that union necessarily follows. The moral law does not contribute to our justification, but it does accompany our salvation as part of the Spirit’s renewing work.

Sanctification always brings new affections—a genuine desire to walk in the ways God commands, including the commands to love, to obey Christ’s teaching, and to receive the sacraments. These are not conditions for being justified but the evidences and outworkings of a new heart. In other words: they “exist because salvation does,” not as additions to it.

So yes, love matters deeply (1 Cor 13), but as the fruit of a justified life, not a co-cause of justification.

I used to believe as you've posted above many years ago.
I'd call this eternal security.

But then I found out about OSAS.

So I'd say this:
What you've written is absolutely true.
IF we're saved, then it will show by our fruit. Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruit.

You say we will have a genuine desire to walk in the ways of God.
Perfect.

But I've come to believe that we need to take this a step further....
We need to state, unequivocably to the naysayers, that obedience to God is demanded.
God does not make requests...He issues commandments.

So I'd say that obedience is required...
and, indeed, it is.

If we decide NOT to obey God, for whatever reason, for 2 months or a year or two years....
we ARE putting our soul in danger...Jesus said we should not test the LORD our God.

There are many verses to support the above, if you need them.

 

[walter]

The Bible explains:

• It is by God's undeserved kindness and Grace, it is a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 2:11
• and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him Hebrews 5:9
• Those who endure to the end will be Saved. Mark 13:13
• We should get baptized and be born again. John 3:5
• We should observe all the commands that Jesus has given us. (like Matthew 28:20 and 1 John 2:3-6)
• Those who do not know God and do not obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

Which scriptures are true? Shouldn't we consider all these scriptures to be true, or does one scripture cancel out the other scripture?

What if we used all these scriptures in our understanding?

Once Jesus was made perfect he became the source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him, and it is by God's grace, his undeserved kindness that we are saved, we should endure to the end, we should get baptized, we should believe in Jesus and observe all his commands, those who do not know God and Obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes people do not understand works, they have to read James;

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

​

Jas 2:14-26, NKJV ​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?​

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.​

If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?​

So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.​

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.​

You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.​

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?​

Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?​

You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.​

And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.​

As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.​

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the spies and sent them off on another route?​

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.​

WORKS has become a dirty word.
Not to be used within Christendom.

Which is kind of strange since that's ALL JESUS SPOKE OF !!
Our behavior.
Our obedience.

Why anyone would believe some doctrine invented a couple of hundred years ago over what the church has ALWAYS taught is a mystery to me.

Maybe these persons don't understand what works are?
Maybe they'd rather not do any?
Maybe they think Christianity is a free ride to heaven - even though Jesus said to count the cost before you join.

Who can know??

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible explains:

• It is by God's undeserved kindness and Grace, it is a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 2:11
• and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him Hebrews 5:9
• Those who endure to the end will be Saved. Mark 13:13
• We should get baptized and be born again. John 3:5
• We should observe all the commands that Jesus has given us. (like Matthew 28:20 and 1 John 2:3-6)
• Those who do not know God and do not obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

Which scriptures are true? Shouldn't we consider all these scriptures to be true, or does one scripture cancel out the other scripture?

Great points.
Yes,,,I believe we can be assured of our salvation IF we continue in the faith and obey God (to the best of our ability, so we don't get accused of believing in perfection).

We will be secure for as long as we remain in Jesus and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This will include obeying Him.

It just seems so easy to me...
I never understand why it could be debated.


Jesus Himself stated this:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

 

[rvmb]

And sealed?
There are a few verses that state that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..

What do we do with all the verses that state that we can forfeit our salvation?
Most by the very writer that wrote Ephesians and Corinthians where this is mentioned.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


Hebrews 3:1
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Revelation 2:4-5
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


Colossians 1:22-23
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.


And so many more.
ALL of scripture must be reconciled.
We cannot pick out 2 or 3 verses about being sealed and ignore many verses about the possibility of the loss of salvation due to falling away or disobedience.



Please read 1 Corinthians 3 regarding the work of Paul and Apollo.
It does not mean what you THINK it means...it's speaking about the work of ministry and not just barely making heaven.
Catholics use these verses to prove that Purgatory exists...also incorrectly.


Yes sir...the above is correct.

We will be judged by what we have done.


Romans 2:5-6 PAUL
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


John 5:28-29 JESUS
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

""There are a few verses that state that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..""
From Paul l only have found - Eph 1:13.
""What do we do with all the verses that state that we can forfeit our salvation?""
List the ones from Paul
"ALL of scripture must be reconciled.""
List Scripture that teaches LIKE Paul the other Apostles are Rom 11:13 Apostle & Rom 15:16 Minister to the Gentiles

 

[Hazelelponi]

usd to believe as you've posted above many years ago.
I'd call this eternal security.

But then I found out about OSAS.

So I'd say this:
What you've written is absolutely true.
IF we're saved, then it will show by our fruit. Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruit.

You say we will have a genuine desire to walk in the ways of God.
Perfect.

But I've come to believe that we need to take this a step further....
We need to state, unequivocably to the naysayers, that obedience to God is demanded.
God does not make requests...He issues commandments.

So I'd say that obedience is required...
and, indeed, it is.

If we decide NOT to obey God, for whatever reason, for 2 months or a year or two years....
we ARE putting our soul in danger...Jesus said we should not test the LORD our God.

There are many verses to support the above, if you need

Hello. The following is a response to your longer post, which you made to another poster. I'm responding to that as you pointed me to read it, ialthough I am quoting this one. I appreciate the response and appreciate your position and honesty. About a year ago I was about where you are, I wanted to call it law just to see more professed Christians actually follow Christ, but we aren't under law, we are under Grace. So we follow God's moral law and all covenant distinctives and encourage them to be followed but our obedience in Christ is from salvation already given. Collapsing that into law keeping undermines salvation.
.
Every single warning passage must be taken with full weight, I completely agree on this point.

However, We are never allowed to play “sealed-by-the-Spirit” texts off against the warnings.

Both are God-breathed, so both must fit perfectly.The only way they fit is if we let Scripture tell us who the warnings are actually addressing.The New Testament never treats the visible church as if every single member is regenerate.

It always recognises two groups inside the covenant community:

A. Those who have been truly united to Christ by the Spirit-wrought gift of persevering faith
B. Those who really do belong to the visible covenant, receive real covenant privileges and blessings, yet were never born again

If we refuse to recognize and distinguish those two groups, the warnings and the promises will always sound like they contradict each other.

Once we see them, everything falls into perfect harmony.

Here are the decisive lines of evidence:

1. Jesus Himself draws the controlling distinction (Matt 7:21–23)
   “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven …
   I will say to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me.’”

Notice what Jesus deliberately does not say:

“I knew you for a while but you lost it.”
“I knew you once but you fell away.”

No, He says: “I never knew you.” That is covenantal language for “you were never regenerate.”

To be “known” by the Lord is to belong to Him in saving love (Amos 3:2; John 10:14, 27–28; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9).
These people prophesied, cast out demons, did mighty works in His name—yet were never His.

1. Hebrews 6:4–6 describes the exact same group
   They were once:
   • enlightened
   • tasted the heavenly gift
   • made sharers (μέτοχοι) of the Holy Spirit
   • tasted the goodness of the word and the powers of the age to come

…and yet they fall away. Notice what the text never says:

“they were justified”
“they were born again"
“they were indwelt in the saving sense”
"They were sealed"

“Tasting” and “sharing in” the Spirit is not the same as drinking the living water or being the temple of the Holy Spirit, or being sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)

This is real covenant privilege without regeneration—exactly the category Jesus described.

1. The warning passages are one of God’s appointed means of perseverance, not evidence against it
   Heb 3:14
   “We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold fast … to the end.”

1 John 2:19
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out, so that it would be shown that they were never of us.”

The apostates do not become unregenerate.
Their leaving reveals that they never were.regenerate in the first place.

1. Judgment according to works is about reward and vindication, not about earning or losing salvation
   1 Cor 3:15
   “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, yet only as through fire.”

Works are the fruit of saving faith, not the root.
The tree is known by its fruit, but the tree is not created by the fruit it produces.

1. A real-life picture
   Think of someone who grows up in the church, is baptized, takes communion, sings the hymns, serves on committees, even sometimes feels emotional during worship—yet has never bowed the knee to Christ in repentant faith.
   If that person later walks away and denounces the faith, we do not say, “He lost his salvation.”
   Jesus says, “I never knew you.”

The seal of the Spirit is God’s doing, not ours Ephesians 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22
The Spirit is God’s own pledge and down-payment that He will bring His work to completion.

Warnings do not cancel the seal; they are one of the tools the Spirit uses to keep the elect secure.

Those who are truly sealed heed the warnings and persevere.

Those who are not sealed eventually expose themselves.

Conclusion

Scripture nowhere teaches:
“Some people are genuinely saved and then become unsaved.”

Scripture constantly teaches:

“Some people are outwardly in the covenant, enjoy real blessings, and yet never truly belong to Christ”

That is why Jesus’ last word to the false professors is not
“I knew you once and now I don’t.”
It is
“I never knew you.”

Once we accept that biblical category, every warning passage and every perseverance passage fits perfectly—without diminishing either the solemn urgency of the warnings or the rock-solid assurance of the promises.

 

[walter]

The Bible explains:

• It is by God's undeserved kindness and Grace, it is a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 2:11
• and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him Hebrews 5:9
• Those who endure to the end will be Saved. Mark 13:13
• We should get baptized and be born again. John 3:5
• We should observe all the commands that Jesus has given us. (like Matthew 28:20 and 1 John 2:3-6)
• Those who do not know God and do not obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

Which scriptures are true? Shouldn't we consider all these scriptures to be true, or does one scripture cancel out the other scripture?

What if we used all these scriptures in our understanding?

Once Jesus was made perfect he became the source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him, and it is by God's grace, his undeserved kindness that we are saved, we should endure to the end, we should get baptized, we should believe in Jesus and observe all his commands, those who do not know God and Obey the good news of our Lord Jesus will be punished.

In the Bible words alone is much better, then anything I could explain.

• Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 2:11
• Hebrews 5:9
• Mark 13:13
• John 3:5
• John 3:16, 3:36
• Matthew 28:20 and 1 John 2:3-6
• 2 Thessalonians 1:8

If anyone has another scripture that is related to salvation or everlasting life please let me know.