Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

""There are a few verses that state that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit..""
From Paul l only have found - Eph 1:13.

Even better!
I certainly am not going to help you make YOUR point.

So there's only ONE verse re being sealed in the Holy Spirit.
OK.
So we toss out all the others that I posted?

""What do we do with all the verses that state that we can forfeit our salvation?""
List the ones from Paul

You only accept Paul's teachings?
Not Jesus' teachings?

I believe I posted scripture from both -or - I'm getting mixed up with a different member.
Please advise.

"ALL of scripture must be reconciled.""
List Scripture that teaches LIKE Paul the other Apostles are Rom 11:13 Apostle & Rom 15:16 Minister to the Gentiles

Not sure what you mean.
Sorry.

 

[rvmb]

Even better!
I certainly am not going to help you make YOUR point.

So there's only ONE verse re being sealed in the Holy Spirit.
OK.
So we toss out all the others that I posted?



You only accept Paul's teachings?
Not Jesus' teachings?

I believe I posted scripture from both -or - I'm getting mixed up with a different member.
Please advise.


Not sure what you mean.
Sorry.

Who selected Paul ? Jesus
Who taught Paul ? Jesus
What role did Jesus give to Paul ?
Apostle AND Minister to the Gentiles.
Did the 12 acknowledge that ?
Yes, Gal 2:7-9, Acts 15:6-25
After Paul was Acts 9:15 commissioned can you show where the 12 have the role of Apostle AND Minister to the Gentiles ? No.
So what's the problem ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello. The following is a response to your longer post, which you made to another poster. I'm responding to that as you pointed me to read it, ialthough I am quoting this one. I appreciate the response and appreciate your position and honesty. About a year ago I was about where you are, I wanted to call it law just to see more professed Christians actually follow Christ, but we aren't under law, we are under Grace. So we follow God's moral law and all covenant distinctives and encourage them to be followed but our obedience in Christ is from salvation already given. Collapsing that into law keeping undermines salvation.

I DID say, to either you or the other member, that we are not under The Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago.
So let's get The Law out of the way.

A question, however, would be:
HOW does obeying God fall under The Law?
Is it legalistic to obey God if that what He asks throughout the NEW testament?

.
Every single warning passage must be taken with full weight, I completely agree on this point.

However, We are never allowed to play “sealed-by-the-Spirit” texts off against the warnings.

OK. Let's see how YOU reconcile the two.
1. We are SEALED by the Spirit.
2. We can fall away.

Both are God-breathed, so both must fit perfectly.The only way they fit is if we let Scripture tell us who the warnings are actually addressing.The New Testament never treats the visible church as if every single member is regenerate.

It always recognises two groups inside the covenant community:

A. Those who have been truly united to Christ by the Spirit-wrought gift of persevering faith
B. Those who really do belong to the visible covenant, receive real covenant privileges and blessings, yet were never born again

So this is the THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH argument.
Just stated in a much more eloquent and intelligent manner.

You're saying that a person can:
BELONG TO THE VISIBLE COVENANT
RECEIVE REAL COVENANT PRIVILEGES
RECEIVE BLESSINGS
Yet, are never born again.

And who are WE to determine who is saved and who is not?
We can judge a persons ACTIONS,,,Matthew 18 (take a sinner to the church)
but we certainly cannot know a person's heart and judge their SALVATION.

If we refuse to recognize and distinguish those two groups, the warnings and the promises will always sound like they contradict each other.

Once we see them, everything falls into perfect harmony.

Here are the decisive lines of evidence:

1. Jesus Himself draws the controlling distinction (Matt 7:21–23)
   “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven …
   I will say to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me.’”

Notice what Jesus deliberately does not say:

“I knew you for a while but you lost it.”
“I knew you once but you fell away.”

H....you're adding word to scripture.
You kow the bible well...you know we're not supposed to do that.

I like to read scripture and understand it AS IT IS WRITTEN.

In Matthew 7:21-23, your verses,
Jesus explains EXACTLY WHY He will not recognize them...

Matthew 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


Jesus is very clear when He speaks and teaches...we should never assume that Jesus does not know HOW
to express Himself. The NT has already been written - it is not for us to REWRITE it and add to it what we THINK Jesus meant.

What does PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS mean?
It means not following the laws of Jesus.
It means not obeying HIM.

If we do not obey Jesus...we are lawless.


And, to be clear, Jesus DOES state that one could be saved for a while and then fall away.

Here are 2 times:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE

Jesus said they believed for a while.
A person that believes is a saved person.
Otherwise we have to redefine what saves a person.

Jesus said they believed FOR A WHILE.
The person is saved for a while.

and then...

THEY FALL AWAY....the same exact words Paul has used.

What do you believe they are falling away from?


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[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 3

No, He says: “I never knew you.” That is covenantal language for “you were never regenerate.”

No sir.
That is not conventional language.
Those that believe as YOU do have tried to make it the conventional language...

But the real language is the language Jesus speaks...
unless, as I've stated, we wish to CHANGE what Jesus MEANT....

Maybe He was a terrible communicator?
The church has always taught obedience to God....
The church has always taught that we are to endure to the end and not fall away.

Enduring to the end:
Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Matthew 24:13 Jesus
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Falling away:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened,
5who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith...


Paul tells us exactly from WHAT they are falling away...
from the faith.

No faith...
No salvation...

They have FALLEN AWAY from SALVATION.

To be “known” by the Lord is to belong to Him in saving love (Amos 3:2; John 10:14, 27–28; 1 Cor 8:3; Gal 4:9).
These people prophesied, cast out demons, did mighty works in His name—yet were never His.

1. Hebrews 6:4–6 describes the exact same group
   They were once:
   • enlightened
   • tasted the heavenly gift
   • made sharers (μέτοχοι) of the Holy Spirit
   • tasted the goodness of the word and the powers of the age to come

…and yet they fall away. Notice what the text never says:

“they were justified”
“they were born again"
“they were indwelt in the saving sense”
"They were sealed"

You're adding words again.
Many do works in the name of Jesus,,,,
but they do not worship Him or obey Him.

These are works of SELF-righteousness.

“Tasting” and “sharing in” the Spirit is not the same as drinking the living water or being the temple of the Holy Spirit, or being sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)

This is real covenant privilege without regeneration—exactly the category Jesus described.

1. The warning passages are one of God’s appointed means of perseverance, not evidence against it
   Heb 3:14
   “We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold fast … to the end.”

Yes sir.
We must share in Christ UNTIL THE END...
IF indeed we HOLD FAST TILL THE END.

I posted Hebrews 3:14 above.
It cannot have two OPPOSITE meanings.

Here it is again:

14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


It plainly states:
IF we HOLD FAST our original confidence firm to the end.

So, again, either the NT writer cannot express himself properly...
or we are misunderstanding a very clear verse.

1 John 2:19
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out, so that it would be shown that they were never of us.”

The apostates do not become unregenerate.
Their leaving reveals that they never were.regenerate in the first place.

Please study up on some church history.
1 John 2:19 is referring to gnostics that had infiltrated the church.
This began while John was still alive and he was very concerned about this and the fact that they might
want to change church teachings...which they indeed did do some years later, beginning with Arianism.

In any case,,,scripture does not CONTRADICT itself.
If there's a verse that sounds different,,,we still have to reconcile it with every other verse.

John is the same person that stated:
1 John 3:4-10
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No * one who abides in Him sins; no * one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


Exactly the same as what Jesus stated in Matthew 7:23
and
Those who PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS are of God and those who DO NOT practice righteousness are of the devil.
Verse 10


John, the same John that wrote Revelation:

He tells us to heed the words of theis book.
Rev 22:9
9 But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

22:11
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."


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[GodsGrace]

page 3 of 3

1. Judgment according to works is about reward and vindication, not about earning or losing salvation
   1 Cor 3:15
   “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, yet only as through fire.”

Please read 1 Cor 3:15 again.
It is not about a sinner barely missing hell.
It's about the missionary work that is not complete being burned up....

Works are the fruit of saving faith, not the root.
The tree is known by its fruit, but the tree is not created by the fruit it produces.

1. A real-life picture
   Think of someone who grows up in the church, is baptized, takes communion, sings the hymns, serves on committees, even sometimes feels emotional during worship—yet has never bowed the knee to Christ in repentant faith.
   If that person later walks away and denounces the faith, we do not say, “He lost his salvation.”
   Jesus says, “I never knew you.”

You're repeating.
Already replied to.


JESUS said we could lose our faith.
Paul said we could lose our faith.

I believe them.

The seal of the Spirit is God’s doing, not ours Ephesians 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22
The Spirit is God’s own pledge and down-payment that He will bring His work to completion.

Agreed.
And the seal will protect us...
for as long as we allow it to.

Paul said to work out our salvation...
Paul NEVER assumes we cannot fall away from our salvation.
THIS is why he warns against the falling away.

If falling away were NOT POSSIBLE
Paul would have no need to warn against it.

Ditto for Jesus.

Warnings do not cancel the seal; they are one of the tools the Spirit uses to keep the elect secure.

Replied to above.
Warnings are an indication that the subject is POSSIBLE.

Those who are truly sealed heed the warnings and persevere.

Those who are not sealed eventually expose themselves.

Conclusion

Scripture nowhere teaches:
“Some people are genuinely saved and then become unsaved.”

Let's see what JESUS says about being sealed and unsealed.
Do we believe Jesus?

Luke 15:24 THE PRODIGAL SON
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


JESUS states that the Prodigal Son has come to life AGAIN.
What does AGAIN mean?

It means that the son was SAVED,,,
then he became LOST,,,
then he became saved AGAIN.

Scripture constantly teaches:

“Some people are outwardly in the covenant, enjoy real blessings, and yet never truly belong to Christ”

That is why Jesus’ last word to the false professors is not
“I knew you once and now I don’t.”
It is
“I never knew you.”

Explained.
And you're writing your very own NT again.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Once we accept that biblical category, every warning passage and every perseverance passage fits perfectly—without diminishing either the solemn urgency of the warnings or the rock-solid assurance of the promises.

Jesus, Paul, and all the writers are writing to the BRETHREN.
The warnings are to THE BRETHREN....
those that are NOT the brethren are already lost...
cannot be more lost than lost.

We do NOT accept judging the soul of another.
What we DO accept are the plain and simple words of Jesus, Paul and all the writers of the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who selected Paul ? Jesus
Who taught Paul ? Jesus
What role did Jesus give to Paul ?
Apostle AND Minister to the Gentiles.
Did the 12 acknowledge that ?
Yes, Gal 2:7-9, Acts 15:6-25
After Paul was Acts 9:15 commissioned can you show where the 12 have the role of Apostle AND Minister to the Gentiles ? No.
So what's the problem ?

I don't know what the problem is because I don't know WHAT you are addressing.

What did I state to which YOU are replying??

 

[rvmb]

I don't know what the problem is because I don't know WHAT you are addressing.

What did I state to which YOU are replying??

--- So we toss out all the others that I posted?
----You only accept Paul's teachings?
----Not Jesus' teachings?
Jesus chose and selected Paul as Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles
Jesus taught Paul what to teach who & when.
Accepting the teachings of Christ THROUGH Paul is accepting the teachings of Christ - RIGHTLY DIVIDED :)

 

[GodsGrace]

--- So we toss out all the others that I posted?
----You only accept Paul's teachings?
----Not Jesus' teachings?
Jesus chose and selected Paul as Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles
Jesus taught Paul what to teach who & when.
Accepting the teachings of Christ THROUGH Paul is accepting the teachings of Christ - RIGHTLY DIVIDED :)

Oh.
OK!
Agreed 100%

If they conflicted, we could toss the NT.

I'm a little suspicious of your last words.
RIGHTLY DIVIDED....

but I hope we agree.
I'm getting so tired of having to debate whether or not we are required to obey God.

 

[rvmb]

Oh.
OK!
Agreed 100%

If they conflicted, we could toss the NT.

I'm a little suspicious of your last words.
RIGHTLY DIVIDED....

but I hope we agree.
I'm getting so tired of having to debate whether or not we are required to obey God.

I'm a little suspicious of your last words.
2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I'm getting so tired of having to debate whether or not we are required to obey God.
GOD commands animal sacrifices for the remission of sin, why haven't you done that ?
Ans :- RIGHTLY DIVIDED :)

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a little suspicious of your last words.
2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I'm getting so tired of having to debate whether or not we are required to obey God.
GOD commands animal sacrifices for the remission of sin, why haven't you done that ?
Ans :- RIGHTLY DIVIDED :)

Are YOU under The Law?
The Ceremonial Law?

I am not.

Does this mean that I'm not required to obey God?
Jesus is the last sacrifice.

So I can do whatever I want to do now with no consequences?

 

[Christian Soldier]

Why did you say that I should read posts better?
You are REPEATING here what I stated that you said.

You DO believe that baptism means nothing.
This is your prerogative.

But it is NOT what orthodox Christianity believes.


Quite a few replies that would apply to this nonsensical statement.
Yes sir...it IS nonssense.

1. A chlld is NOT a murdering reprobate.
The bible teaches that we are responsible for ONLY OUR OWN SINS.
A child has committed no sins.

2. In ADULTS baptism washes away all sins...as does confessing our sins...HOWEVER, Jesus still stated that we are to be baptized and even the Apostles taught this.


It would seem CS, that it is YOUR theology that is off since IT does not agree with orthodox Christianity.
I do believe you know that only your denomination teaches what it does. NO OTHER.

It's there for sure.
But I have no desire to have any conversation with you.
I do, however, like to point out your mistaken theology,,,
for the sake of those reading along.



Answer this:
WHERE was the Holy Spirit located in the OT?
WHERE is the Holy Spirit located now (the NT) in believers?

The answer to this very simple question will also answer your question to me.

You obviously can't find any scriptures to support your silly opinions, so you just resort to slander. This is exactly what Satan does.

I said that pouring water on a person or dunking them under water does nothing, this act has no power to save anyone. I don't understand why you think Baptism is witchcraft, or black magic, as they have supernatural powers but Baptism has no power to do anything.

You need to show me a verse of scripture to prove me wrong, you know I reject your private opinion, so why do you keep pushing your foolish private opinions. I have never expressed my private opinion about anything and I only quote the word of God. You have never ever found a single fault with my theology so your only response has been to slander the Word of God, which is blasphemous on your part.

Where does the bible say that children don't sin???? answer NOWHERE!!!!! man your full of lies all day long.

Where does the bible say that baptism washes away adult sin??? answer NOWHERE!!!!!! at least you're consistent with your lies.

You have confused "Orthodox Christianity" with the Eastern Orthodox Religious Sects. They departed from the Church to form their own Denominations and Sects, because thewy rejected Gods Word.

 

[rvmb]

Are YOU under The Law?
The Ceremonial Law?

I am not.

Does this mean that I'm not required to obey God?
Jesus is the last sacrifice.

So I can do whatever I want to do now with no consequences?

1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10 Judgement Seat of Christ
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
ps, You no longer WILLFULLY sin ?
Want to take a "love your neighbor" test ?

 

[Christian Soldier]

And to YOU,,,,
neither will I. (provide any information)

You could ask Gemini, or any other AI device...
so easy these digital days....

Just ask how many Covenants there are from the OT onward.
To state that there are only TWO is just plain SILLY on your part.

And the reason I do NOT converse with you is because you call me a liar.

Because someone does not agree with you does not make them a liar.
I know Forums that would permanently ban you for doing this.

Go instruct yourself on the Covenants...
They're not even TITLED what the reformed call them.
The reformed have their very own explanation for everything it would seem.

For instance..there's NO SUCH COVENANT as the Covenant of Grace.
DOESN'T EXIST.

At least, not under that title

OK, now I see your problem. You are trusting in a robot to teach you theology, rather than trusting in the Lord/. That explains why your so confused and full of lies and hypocrisy.
Your private opinions and lies are never supported by any scripture, and the sad part is you vehemently reject sound doctrine, in order to hold on to your private opinions.

 

[GodsGrace]

You obviously can't find any scriptures to support your silly opinions, so you just resort to slander. This is exactly what Satan does.

I said that pouring water on a person or dunking them under water does nothing, this act has no power to save anyone. I don't understand why you think Baptism is witchcraft, or black magic, as they have supernatural powers but Baptism has no power to do anything.

You need to show me a verse of scripture to prove me wrong, you know I reject your private opinion, so why do you keep pushing your foolish private opinions. I have never expressed my private opinion about anything and I only quote the word of God. You have never ever found a single fault with my theology so your only response has been to slander the Word of God, which is blasphemous on your part.

Where does the bible say that children don't sin???? answer NOWHERE!!!!! man your full of lies all day long.

Where does the bible say that baptism washes away adult sin??? answer NOWHERE!!!!!! at least you're consistent with your lies.

You have confused "Orthodox Christianity" with the Eastern Orthodox Religious Sects. They departed from the Church to form their own Denominations and Sects, because thewy rejected Gods Word.

I am NOT required to prove orthodox Christianity to you...
and I CHOOSE not to.
My CHOICE must have been predestinated by God.

Also,, please learn the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Orthodox denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, now I see your problem. You are trusting in a robot to teach you theology, rather than trusting in the Lord/. That explains why your so confused and full of lies and hypocrisy.
Your private opinions and lies are never supported by any scripture, and the sad part is you vehemently reject sound doctrine, in order to hold on to your private opinions.

I do not enjoy conversing with ignorant persons.
Of which YOU are one.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10 Judgement Seat of Christ
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
ps, You no longer WILLFULLY sin ?
Want to take a "love your neighbor" test ?

I don't know rvmb.
I'm havng difficulty posting to you.
I'm pretty good at understanding folk, but not YOU.

WHO said I no longer willfully sin?

You reply to statement I DID NOT MAKE....
and do NOT reply to statements I've made.

So there's some misunderstanding here and I cannot spend my limited time on here
correcting what you've misunderstood or trying to state in a more clear fashion what I'VE written.

I'm truly sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

You obviously can't find any scriptures to support your silly opinions, so you just resort to slander.

Must be what YOU do CS....
slander persons...you know, like calling me a liar.


because I NEVER resort to slander.
However YOU do this all the time...

This very post proves it.

Which is why I prefer not to post to you.

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

And if you think IGNORANCE is slander...
please look up the word in a dictionary.

This is exactly what Satan does.

I said that pouring water on a person or dunking them under water does nothing, this act has no power to save anyone. I don't understand why you think Baptism is witchcraft, or black magic, as they have supernatural powers but Baptism has no power to do anything.

You need to show me a verse of scripture to prove me wrong, you know I reject your private opinion, so why do you keep pushing your foolish private opinions. I have never expressed my private opinion about anything and I only quote the word of God. You have never ever found a single fault with my theology so your only response has been to slander the Word of God, which is blasphemous on your part.

Where does the bible say that children don't sin???? answer NOWHERE!!!!! man your full of lies all day long.

Where does the bible say that baptism washes away adult sin??? answer NOWHERE!!!!!! at least you're consistent with your lies.

You have confused "Orthodox Christianity" with the Eastern Orthodox Religious Sects. They departed from the Church to form their own Denominations and Sects, because thewy rejected Gods Word.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

And if you think IGNORANCE is slander...
please look up the word in a dictionary.

When you resort to name-calling you've already lost the argument.

 

[GodsGrace]

When you resort to name-calling you've already lost the argument.

I hope you're referring to the other poster!

 

[rvmb]

I don't know rvmb.
I'm havng difficulty posting to you.
I'm pretty good at understanding folk, but not YOU.

WHO said I no longer willfully sin?

You reply to statement I DID NOT MAKE....
and do NOT reply to statements I've made.

So there's some misunderstanding here and I cannot spend my limited time on here
correcting what you've misunderstood or trying to state in a more clear fashion what I'VE written.

I'm truly sorry.

Sorry not required but thank you :)
I do try & keep it short n sweet.
--So I can do whatever I want to do now with no consequences?
As Christians IN SOME WAY we continue to do what we want (sin)
Ps, I'm guilty of the following
Why do we fail at "love your neighbor" ?
Because IN SOME WAY we continue to do what we want.
"Love your neighbor" is a command, not doing it is disobeying GOD by doing whatever we want.
Entry (NOT ETERNAL REWARDS) into eternal life is ONLY by faith/trust/belief in the death/burial/resurrection of Christ - Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
If obey GOD is an additional condition to Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 then where are the verse/s from Paul that teach the amount of obey that is required ?
Either entry into eternal life for believers 'today' is only by faith or it isn't.
Titu 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 teaches what ? :)