How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Jack]

My Brother Denis was killed by drunk drivers. I returned from NAM. Both Stories ran on the same page of a local paper. Mine had Daniel, the other had only D Marsh. People who knew me assumed it was me who died. From NAM various stories was reported on TV News that I died via Land Mine, ran over by a tank, Shot and Strabed. Near Denver CO, There was the Big Thompson Flood. There, a group of hiked up a Mountain, my knee gave out so we camped up there. During the night the flood came. We were picked up by Military Chopers to help in the Rescues. Stories were in the new papers, on radio and Tv including my home town. The others were natural disasters like floods, tornadios, huricanes, earth quakes. More were I broke up a Robbery and was shot. Each time I "died", I was sent on temporary duty somewhere since I was not allowed to report, be in my Offices. One of the times I was sent to Jonestown to help in the clean up by an Athest and LDS Officers to try to break up the Revivals that happened wherever, I was.

I'm so glad you're here!!!

 

[walter]

Jesus said "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER".

Jesus never said that.. That verse is from the Book of Revelation -- and applies to the devil, the Beast in the false prophet.

 

[Jack]

Jesus never said that.. That verse is from the Book of Revelation -- and applies to the devil, the Beast in the false prophet.

So you don't believe the Bible! There you go folks!

Did you read Verse One of Revelation?

 

[walter]

So you don't believe the Bible! There you go folks!

Did you read Verse One of Revelation?

You win! I'm going to burn in Hell for longer than a trillion years. Thanks for the conversation anyway.

 

[Jack]

You win! I'm going to burn in Hell for longer than a trillion years. Thanks for the conversation anyway.

There may be hope for you.

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am not sure what you are asking here...about believers today?
Scripture teaches who they are >> Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11
Whose Ministry are they under ? Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
What is the Gospel taught by that Ministry ? Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Plain, simple & easy to understand :)

OK let’s check out those Scriptures....

Gal 3:28 in context...
“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Gal 3:23-29 NASB)

So from this passage we see that Paul was talking about the Jewish Law as a tutor leading to Christ, so that once Christ arrived and “revealed” “the faith” that was to come, under a new covenant, they no longer required a tutor.
Nationality no longer made any difference. All Christians now “clothed themselves with Christ” and became Abraham’s descendants without being directly related to him by birth. (Rom 2:29)

I believe this is speaking about “spiritual Israel”....(the Israel of God) who replaced fleshly Israel as the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” to God, something that was originally promised natural Israel. And a remnant of natural Israel formed the first members of the “body of Christ”.

Whose ministry are they under? The Gentiles? They were Paul’s special assignment, but as I said, it wasn’t Paul who first responded to the Gentiles...it was Peter. God sent Peter to Cornelius. It was God’s time to bring them in, according to his promise to Abraham.

What is the gospel taught by that ministry?.....I am getting the impression that you might be one who separates Paul’s ministry from that of the other apostles, yet that makes no sense as the 12 form the very foundations of the Kingdom of God...(Rev 21:14) Paul’s name is not among them.

All the apostles had the same gospel to spread. They formed one united body in Christ....his bride.
(1 Cor 1:10)

What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”.

 

[Jack]

OK let’s check out those Scriptures....

Gal 3:28 in context...
“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Gal 3:23-29 NASB)

So from this passage we see that Paul was talking about the Jewish Law as a tutor leading to Christ, so that once Christ arrived and “revealed” “the faith” that was to come, under a new covenant, they no longer required a tutor.
Nationality no longer made any difference. All Christians now “clothed themselves with Christ” and became Abraham’s descendants without being directly related to him by birth. (Rom 2:29)

I believe this is speaking about “spiritual Israel”....(the Israel of God) who replaced fleshly Israel as the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” to God, something that was originally promised natural Israel. And a remnant of natural Israel formed the first members of the “body of Christ”.

Whose ministry are they under? The Gentiles? They were Paul’s special assignment, but as I said, it wasn’t Paul who first responded to the Gentiles...it was Peter. God sent Peter to Cornelius. It was God’s time to bring them in, according to his promise to Abraham.

What is the gospel taught by that ministry?.....I am getting the impression that you might be one who separates Paul’s ministry from that of the other apostles, yet that makes no sense as the 12 form the very foundations of the Kingdom of God...(Rev 21:14) Paul’s name is not among them.

All the apostles had the same gospel to spread. They formed one united body in Christ....his bride.
(1 Cor 1:10)

What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”.

The Gospel is eternal Hell Fire for unbelievers and JW Bible attackers, and Jesus is God of the Bible, the ONLY Savior, not Michael.

Michael is the JW savior, Jesus/God is the Christian Savior! Michael didn't shed his blood for us. Michael didn't die for us! Jesus did!

 

[Aunty Jane]

You win! I'm going to burn in Hell for longer than a trillion years. Thanks for the conversation anyway.

LOL.....we can toast marshmallows together...or have endless popcorn.

 

[rvmb]

OK let’s check out those Scriptures....

Gal 3:28 in context...
“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Gal 3:23-29 NASB)

So from this passage we see that Paul was talking about the Jewish Law as a tutor leading to Christ, so that once Christ arrived and “revealed” “the faith” that was to come, under a new covenant, they no longer required a tutor.
Nationality no longer made any difference. All Christians now “clothed themselves with Christ” and became Abraham’s descendants without being directly related to him by birth. (Rom 2:29)

I believe this is speaking about “spiritual Israel”....(the Israel of God) who replaced fleshly Israel as the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” to God, something that was originally promised natural Israel. And a remnant of natural Israel formed the first members of the “body of Christ”.

Whose ministry are they under? The Gentiles? They were Paul’s special assignment, but as I said, it wasn’t Paul who first responded to the Gentiles...it was Peter. God sent Peter to Cornelius. It was God’s time to bring them in, according to his promise to Abraham.

What is the gospel taught by that ministry?.....I am getting the impression that you might be one who separates Paul’s ministry from that of the other apostles, yet that makes no sense as the 12 form the very foundations of the Kingdom of God...(Rev 21:14) Paul’s name is not among them.

All the apostles had the same gospel to spread. They formed one united body in Christ....his bride.
(1 Cor 1:10)

What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”.

Many words are not required but thank you.
Lets make it easy with a simple yes or no :)
- Do you believe that Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 applies to anyone anywhere today who trusts only Christ for Salvation ?
- Do you accept that the above are under the Ministry & Apostleship of Paul Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
- Do you accept that the Gospel that Paul taught is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 & is the Gospel that applies today ?

 

[Jack]

LOL.....we can toast marshmallows together...or have endless popcorn.

It may be funny to you now, but when Bible mockers get a glimpse of the furnace of fire they'll NEVER laugh again.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Many words are not required but thank you.
Lets make it easy with a simple yes or no :)
- Do you believe that Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 applies to anyone anywhere today who trusts only Christ for Salvation ?
- Do you accept that the above are under the Ministry & Apostleship of Paul Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
- Do you accept that the Gospel that Paul taught is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 & is the Gospel that applies today ?

Many words may not be required, but enough so that there is no misunderstanding.....
You fire Scripture with no explanation as to how you interpret the words.
Perhaps if you are more specific....I can be more specific.

If you are suggesting what I already suspect, then we are on opposite ends of what the entirety of Scripture teaches.

I asked you.....”What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”....by whom?

Can you answer me that at least?

Jesus words to his 11 faithful apostles after his resurrection, in Matt 28:19-20 gave them that same commission, which also was to be until “the end” of the age.
How then is Paul’s minIstry separate from what the other apostles preached? Jesus’ instruction to his original apostles was not different to Paul’s, except that his assignment to preach to the Gentiles was purposeful due to his education and status as a former Pharisee in the Jewish community.

Jesus and the 12 preached to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”.....on their level.....Paul was given a different audience, not a different gospel.

 

[rvmb]

Many words may not be required, but enough so that there is no misunderstanding.....
You fire Scripture with no explanation as to how you interpret the words.
Perhaps if you are more specific....I can be more specific.

If you are suggesting what I already suspect, then we are on opposite ends of what the entirety of Scripture teaches.

I asked you.....”What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”....by whom?

Can you answer me that at least?

Jesus words to his 11 faithful apostles after his resurrection, in Matt 28:19-20 gave them that same commission, which also was to be until “the end” of the age.
How then is Paul’s minIstry separate from what the other apostles preached? Jesus’ instruction to his original apostles was not different to Paul’s, except that his assignment to preach to the Gentiles was purposeful due to his education and status as a former Pharisee in the Jewish community.

Jesus and the 12 preached to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”.....on their level.....Paul was given a different audience, not a different gospel.

What are your yes or no answers to :-
- Do you believe that Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 applies to anyone anywhere today who trusts only Christ for Salvation ?
- Do you accept that the above are under the Ministry & Apostleship of Paul Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
- Do you accept that the Gospel that Paul taught is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 & is the Gospel that applies today ?

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic:

What is the difference between the gospel to the Jews and the gospel to the gentiles?

There is a biblical warning about not preaching any OTHER gospel. But it seems that there was a gospel message to the Jews and a gospel message to the gentiles. Because the two audiences were completely different. - The Jews, of course were expecting a Messiah. The gentiles weren't. - The Jews...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[The Learner]

Till Jazz gets back....can we all read this passage together? I’ll break it up and explain as we go.....

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.”

This is the separation of two categories of people found on earth at the time of Christ’s return. The separation is made by comparing their deeds towards Christ’s true disciples....and each has an destiny that is irreversible.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

So this first group are those who did good deeds towards Christ’s “brothers”....so we need to identify the two groups...Christ’s “brothers” and those who do good deeds towards them....sometimes they don’t even know that they are doing so according to their response. So it’s a trait in these ones to be good to their neighbors as a matter of doing what is natural for a Christian disciple....but to Christ’s brothers especially.
Jesus said that those doing acts or deeds of kindness to the least of those who were his “brothers”, they did it to him.
These are ones God counts worthy to become citizens of his incoming Kingdom. Kind, loving, unselfish people who love God and his Christ and show it by the way they live their lives.

But what about the other group?

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This is not a destiny anyone would sign up for on purpose....the “eternal fire” of “Gehenna”, is reserved for the devil and his angels, but the “goats” are not the first ones sent to this destination.....Jesus condemned the Pharisees to this place of eternal death. (Matt 23:33) So Gehenna is not Christendom’s “hell”, but the opposite of everlasting life. A place of no return, (“the second death”) unlike “hades” which releases its dead. (Rev 20:13-14)
What do the goats fail to do?

“For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

These are not the sort of people who express human kindness to their fellow man...it’s not in their nature to care about anyone but themselves, let alone seeking to do good to Christ’s “brothers”.
These are not the ones God wants in his Kingdom....they are neither “meek” nor “teachable” as Jesus said his disciples would be.

Is there anything you disagree with so far? Is this a fair assessment of that passage?



Acts 9:10-15 is the conversion of Saul...chosen by Christ to represent him especially to the nations. He was an educated man, up to the task of addressing both Jewish leaders (as a former Pharisee) and to the learned Greek philosophers who would not have accepted humble uneducated fishermen to teach them anything.

Acts 15:6-25 is the circumcision issue where certain Jews wanted to impose the law on gentiles. They sent to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem to sort out the issue.

Gal 2:7-9 Paul is appointed as an apostle to the nations, as Rom 11:13 says....and given the power of Holy Spirit just as the other apostles were for the Jews that they were sent to. Yet it was Peter who was sent to the first Gentile convert to Christianity....Cornelius and his household who received the Holy Spirit before their baptism...that is how Peter knew why God had given him that vision of the unclean animals he was told to “slaughter and eat”. God had opened the way for the gentiles to come to him through Christ.

Rom 15:16 shows that it was God’s time to include the gentiles as his promise to Abraham had stated....”all the nations” would be blessed by this seed who would be a descendant of Abraham.

I am not sure what you are asking here...about believers today? Both Jews and Gentiles continued to be added to the Christian congregations due to the preaching work that Christ commanded. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

The roles were only unique for a time.....the Jews were offered a place in God’s kingdom first, but as a nation they rejected their Messiah. God then chose a new nation...one Paul called “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) which was made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians......there was no longer a unique appeal to Jews and non-Jews...all were to be given the same witness. The two became one body.


Over to you....

I was at a Jazz club Resturant last night for a wedding.

 

[The Learner]

Jesus never said that.. That verse is from the Book of Revelation -- and applies to the devil, the Beast in the false prophet.

Revelation 20:9-10
Easy-to-Read Version
9 I saw Satan’s army march across the earth and gather around the camp of God’s people and the city that God loves. But fire came down from heaven and destroyed Satan’s army.
10 And he (the one who tricked these people) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they would be tortured day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a large white throne. I saw the one who was sitting on the throne. Earth and sky ran away from him and disappeared. 12 And I saw those who had died, great and small, standing before the throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened—the book of life. The people were judged by what they had done, which is written in the books.

Revelation 21:24-25
Easy-to-Read Version
24 The peoples of the world will walk by the light given by the Lamb. The rulers of the earth will bring their glory into the city. 25 The city’s gates will never close on any day, because there is no night there.

Jesus is hte Judge there.

 

[The Learner]

So you don't believe the Bible! There you go folks!

Did you read Verse One of Revelation?

Revelation 1
Easy-to-Read Version
John Tells About This Book
1 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.

 

[The Learner]

OK let’s check out those Scriptures....

Gal 3:28 in context...
“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Gal 3:23-29 NASB)

So from this passage we see that Paul was talking about the Jewish Law as a tutor leading to Christ, so that once Christ arrived and “revealed” “the faith” that was to come, under a new covenant, they no longer required a tutor.
Nationality no longer made any difference. All Christians now “clothed themselves with Christ” and became Abraham’s descendants without being directly related to him by birth. (Rom 2:29)

I believe this is speaking about “spiritual Israel”....(the Israel of God) who replaced fleshly Israel as the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” to God, something that was originally promised natural Israel. And a remnant of natural Israel formed the first members of the “body of Christ”.

Whose ministry are they under? The Gentiles? They were Paul’s special assignment, but as I said, it wasn’t Paul who first responded to the Gentiles...it was Peter. God sent Peter to Cornelius. It was God’s time to bring them in, according to his promise to Abraham.

What is the gospel taught by that ministry?.....I am getting the impression that you might be one who separates Paul’s ministry from that of the other apostles, yet that makes no sense as the 12 form the very foundations of the Kingdom of God...(Rev 21:14) Paul’s name is not among them.

All the apostles had the same gospel to spread. They formed one united body in Christ....his bride.
(1 Cor 1:10)

What is “the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about in Matt 24:14? It was to be preached until “the end”.

It boils down to believing in the Jesus who is fully God and fully Man.

 

[The Learner]

The Gospel is eternal Hell Fire for unbelievers and JW Bible attackers, and Jesus is God of the Bible, the ONLY Savior, not Michael.

Michael is the JW savior, Jesus/God is the Christian Savior! Michael didn't shed his blood for us. Michael didn't die for us! Jesus did!

Jude 9
Not even the archangel Michael did this. Michael argued with the devil about who would have the body of Moses. But Michael did not dare to condemn even the devil for his false accusations. Instead, Michael said, “The Lord punish you!”

 

[soberxp]

It boils down to believing in the Jesus who is fully God and fully Man.

So, do angels also obey the will of God?
Is angle also fully God and fully angle?

 

[The Learner]

So, do angels also obey the will of God?
Is angle also fully God and fully angle?

So, do angels also obey the will of God?
Most do, some fell out of Heaven due to rebellion.

Is angle also fully God and fully angle?
No not fully God. However, some fallen angels may pretend to be a false god.

Satan is called the god of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:4

Easy-to-Read Version

​

4 The ruler[god] of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They cannot see the light of the Good News—the message about the divine greatness of Christ. Christ is the one who is exactly like God.