No, Christians didn’t adopt the immortal soul from the Greeks

[Brakelite]

Angels are immortal spirits too,

Are they? You would be able to show me that that right... From Scripture? Did you know Satan will be destroyed along with all his fallen angels at the end?

 

[David in NJ]

The entire story of "The rich man and Lazarus" is a work of fiction, built around folk lore and little facts of common knowledge.

The ONLY factual truth about the story, is found in the last paragraph where Jesus points to a soon to be known fact for their day:
Luke 16 [31] And he [Jesus] said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The LORD Spoke "fiction" ???

 

[David in NJ]

Are they? You would be able to show me that that right... From Scripture? Did you know Satan will be destroyed along with all his fallen angels at the end?

How old is Satan?

 

[Earburner]

The LORD Spoke "fiction" ???

Get out of your religion induced whirlwind by "the wisdom of men",
and start listening to what the Lord's Holy Spirit teaches from within you. 1 Cor. 2:12-13

 

[Marvelloustime]

An UNBELIEVER . exactly my friend .
And now time for a trivia question to this generation of christendom.
Hey christains , DO WE BELEIVE GOD or satan .
Hey christains , DO WE BELEIVE JESUS CHRIST or anti christ .
DO WE BELIEVE THE GOSPEL or not .
Now i know many will say they do . But it can easily be proven they do not .
How so you might ask .
Ask them two questions . FIRST ask them DO you BELIEVE the GOSPEL .
The one true gospel that says
YE MUST BELEIVE FROM THE HEART that GOD rose CHRIST from the dead , and confess HIM by mouth .
Now many will say yes .
BUT THEN ask them , so what about all the other religoins . AND YE SHALL SEE THEY BELEIVE ONLY IN UNBELIEF
as they give them a pass and say things like OH if they loved GOD or etc and loved their neighbor they okay .
FAT LIE . PROOF one beleives ONLY IN UNBELIEF .
because I KNOW I BELIEVE THE GOSPEL . AND MY ANSWER IS I KNOW THEY MUST REPENT TO BELIEVE ON HIM
or perish they will . I dont preach and claim beleif and then turn around and preach UNBELEIF to them false religions .
GET EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD OUTTA them anti christ ecumeincal intefaith churches RIGHT NOW .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. This Bible verse says that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but those who don't believe in Him will perish. Jesus saved us from the second death, not the second dying.

What on earth do you mean by second dying .

 

[amigo de christo]

How old is Satan?

I have no idea about that my friend .
But this i do know that all the world is under his influence
Cept for the sheep . JESUS has set them free from the power of darkness and of satan .
Now to the trenches one and all .

 

[amigo de christo]

How old is Satan?

speaking of time and how time relates to GOD , we can easily see His time is not like our limited knowledge of what we see
as time . Which to us would have seemed to have had a beginning .
GOD exists in a time that man cannot fully relate too . It had no beginning it has no end . IT JUST IS .
AND known by GOD are all things .
As far as how old is satan . He must have existed before man due to we see him in the garden .
How much before man , That i have no idea . Nor does any man .
we can speculate , sure , but we dont really have that answer . Angels and etc , SURE seem to have been
before man was . But who knows .
THIS i do know . GOD has always been . Never had a beginning and by HIM were all things that are, created .
And that in the beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was GOD and by him were all things created .
And that the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us .
And many rejected HIM , as many still today reject HIM .
And that will not profit them at all on the DAY of the LORD . GOD came to save.
HE sent the SON so that all who do beleive in HIM would not perish but have everlasting life .
But that ol dragon , you made mention of
the very crafity serpent , has always desired the death of man , thus he tempted eve to eat of that tree
and she gave to her husband , AND , well death came upon all ever since .
But that there WORD i made mention of , JESUS THE CHRIST , HE came to save us
But again that there dragon i also made mention of
He came to preach ecumeincal intefaith to ensure all would remain UNDER DEATH and be delivered to the second death .
He is one highly crafity and subtile creature indeed . But the sheep hear him not , nor his many in wool
who decieve this people right to a lie that has accepted not only certain sins , but even the lie of all lies .
FOR JE SUS said , IF YE BELEIVE NOT then ye shall SURELY DIE in your sins .
BUT it aint what the devil and his men now preach . TEHY say , OH It matters not what religoin one is of
we all serve the same GOD , we all coming to him differently .
LAST TIME I CHECKED JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER . AND YE MUST BELIEVE ON HIM

 

[Marvelloustime]

speaking of time and how time relates to GOD , we can easily see His time is not like our limited knowledge of what we see
as time . Which to us would have seemed to have had a beginning .
GOD exists in a time that man cannot fully relate too . It had no beginning it has no end . IT JUST IS .
AND known by GOD are all things .
As far as how old is satan . He must have existed before man due to we see him in the garden .
How much before man , That i have no idea . Nor does any man .
we can speculate , sure , but we dont really have that answer . Angels and etc , SURE seem to have been
before man was . But who knows .
THIS i do know . GOD has always been . Never had a beginning and by HIM were all things that are, created .
And that in the beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was GOD and by him were all things created .
And that the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us .
And many rejected HIM , as many still today reject HIM .
And that will not profit them at all on the DAY of the LORD . GOD came to save.
HE sent the SON so that all who do beleive in HIM would not perish but have everlasting life .
But that ol dragon , you made mention of
the very crafity serpent , has always desired the death of man , thus he tempted eve to eat of that tree
and she gave to her husband , AND , well death came upon all ever since .
But that there WORD i made mention of , JESUS THE CHRIST , HE came to save us
But again that there dragon i also made mention of
He came to preach ecumeincal intefaith to ensure all would remain UNDER DEATH and be delivered to the second death .
He is one highly crafity and subtile creature indeed . But the sheep hear him not , nor his many in wool
who decieve this people right to a lie that has accepted not only certain sins , but even the lie of all lies .
FOR JE SUS said , IF YE BELEIVE NOT then ye shall SURELY DIE in your sins .
BUT it aint what the devil and his men now preach . TEHY say , OH It matters not what religoin one is of
we all serve the same GOD , we all coming to him differently .
LAST TIME I CHECKED JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER . AND YE MUST BELIEVE ON HIM

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

speaking of time and how time relates to GOD , we can easily see His time is not like our limited knowledge of what we see
as time . Which to us would have seemed to have had a beginning .
GOD exists in a time that man cannot fully relate too . It had no beginning it has no end . IT JUST IS .
AND known by GOD are all things .
As far as how old is satan . He must have existed before man due to we see him in the garden .
How much before man , That i have no idea . Nor does any man .
we can speculate , sure , but we dont really have that answer . Angels and etc , SURE seem to have been
before man was . But who knows .
THIS i do know . GOD has always been . Never had a beginning and by HIM were all things that are, created .
And that in the beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was GOD and by him were all things created .
And that the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us .
And many rejected HIM , as many still today reject HIM .
And that will not profit them at all on the DAY of the LORD . GOD came to save.
HE sent the SON so that all who do beleive in HIM would not perish but have everlasting life .
But that ol dragon , you made mention of
the very crafity serpent , has always desired the death of man , thus he tempted eve to eat of that tree
and she gave to her husband , AND , well death came upon all ever since .
But that there WORD i made mention of , JESUS THE CHRIST , HE came to save us
But again that there dragon i also made mention of
He came to preach ecumeincal intefaith to ensure all would remain UNDER DEATH and be delivered to the second death .
He is one highly crafity and subtile creature indeed . But the sheep hear him not , nor his many in wool
who decieve this people right to a lie that has accepted not only certain sins , but even the lie of all lies .
FOR JE SUS said , IF YE BELEIVE NOT then ye shall SURELY DIE in your sins .
BUT it aint what the devil and his men now preach . TEHY say , OH It matters not what religoin one is of
we all serve the same GOD , we all coming to him differently .
LAST TIME I CHECKED JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER . AND YE MUST BELIEVE ON HIM

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 75491

spotted .

 

[Earburner]

Get out of your religion induced whirlwind by "the wisdom of men",
and start listening to what the Lord's Holy Spirit teaches from within you. 1 Cor. 2:12-13

In regards to the reference to the parable of the "Rich man and Lazarus", I add:
By the Holy Spirit, try to think the following through, and stop understanding it by the religious wisdom of men and their doctrines of what a soul is.
Rule #1. "...man BECAME a living soul".
He was NEVER GIVEN an eternally living soul by God. No one has eternal existence of any kind!!

However, what  Adam did receive was the breath of life, which IS Oxygenated air.
In our pro-creation, that is exactly what we all have done ever since.

All should know that ALL land animals have the breath of life also. KJV Gen. 6:17, 7:15, 22. Since they do, are you ready and willing to say that they also have been given a fictitious "eternal immortal soul", and therefore they have eternal existence??

 

[Keiw]

That is problematic because many saints were also raised when Christ was raised (Mat 27:52).



You’re conflating the Nephesh and the soul (consciousness), but they are not the same. Animals are Nephesh too, but no one would argue we are the same as animals (1Co 15:39). There is something intrinsic about man that makes him unique from all living creatures. And there is nothing in scriptures that prevents that unique, intangible something from continuing on after bodily death. In fact, there are scriptural examples to the contrary:

2Co 5:8 “…to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

Jon 2:2 "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice."

Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psyche)…”

Rev 6:9-10 “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”



Angels are immortal spirits too, which throws your logic out the window.



I don’t believe that is accurate. Scriptures suggest that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected:

Dan 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Jhn 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Yes, animals and fish are living souls--They do NOT have a soul as in a ghost like spirit living within.
The alter would have to be gigantic if all the souls were under it literally. Its symbolism.
Angels are not immortal.

 

[Jericho]

Are they? You would be able to show me that that right... From Scripture? Did you know Satan will be destroyed along with all his fallen angels at the end?

How about Luke 20:36? When comparing our future resurrected bodies to that of the angels, it says, “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. There’s nowhere in the Bible where angels are ever described as dying or being killed. Even fallen angels are only said to be bound, judged, and thrown into the lake of fire. I know you guys believe in annihilationism, but I’d like to know how spiritual beings that are not flesh and blood can be destroyed. I don’t believe they can; they can only be contained. And that is exactly what Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 say of the angels that sinned and are kept in “eternal” chains under gloomy darkness.

Yes, animals and fish are living souls--They do NOT have a soul as in a ghost like spirit living within.
The alter would have to be gigantic if all the souls were under it literally. Its symbolism.
Angels are not immortal.

By turning it symbolism you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. But I think you missed my point. If animals, fish, and humans are all living souls, then what makes us different? Nephesh refers to the physical lifeforce, but that doesn’t preclude humans from having an internal, spiritual component. In fact, that is the only thing that can make us different among all the other Nephesh. For the record, I don’t believe we become ghosts, as in eternal disembodied spirits. We will still have bodies, just of a different kind.

This is true....however, God is not beholden to the general direction of how it is explained by Paul. God also raised Moses and Elijah with Enoch never saw death. These are exceptions.....and why not? it doesn't oppose what Paul revealed for the majority.

Then you agree that humans can possess immortality. So then, what makes them the exception and not the rule? Either it's a part of our spiritual makeup or it's not. When Paul said that only God is immortal, it means only God possesses it intrinsically as He is the only uncreated being. But again, that doesn't mean we don't share in his divinity because we are his children. Children inherit the attributers of their parents. It's true of our earthly parents and it's true of our heavenly Father.

 

[quietthinker]

Then you agree that humans can possess immortality. So then, what makes them the exception and not the rule? Either it's a part of our spiritual makeup or it's not. When Paul said that only God is immortal, it means only God possesses it intrinsically as He is the only uncreated being. But again, that doesn't mean we don't share in his divinity because we are his children. Children inherit the attributers of their parents. It's true of our earthly parents and it's true of our heavenly Father.

Death has been visited upon Earth's inhabitants. This intrinsically means Life has been cut short.
God's remedy which has been played out in the incarnation and resurrection, ultimately defeats death and life granted to those who want it as specifically explained in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4

Given this information, God can and does give life in other situations independent of the general rule as mentioned.
There are the accounts of Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Lazarus, those resurrected when Jesus rose, the son of the woman of Nain and no doubt others being raised from the dead.
Jesus' healing (temporary reversal) of the various ailments which are in the train of death ie, blindness, deafness, lameness, even death, are indicators that he is the Prince of Life.
None of this means immortality is given to God's creatures independent of these 'special' events.

We understand from scripture that Satan and his angels, who for lack of a better way of putting it, have been given a bigger battery, eventually will also see their demise.

 

[Keiw]

How about Luke 20:36? When comparing our future resurrected bodies to that of the angels, it says, “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. There’s nowhere in the Bible where angels are ever described as dying or being killed. Even fallen angels are only said to be bound, judged, and thrown into the lake of fire. I know you guys believe in annihilationism, but I’d like to know how spiritual beings that are not flesh and blood can be destroyed. I don’t believe they can; they can only be contained. And that is exactly what Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 say of the angels that sinned and are kept in “eternal” chains under gloomy darkness.



By turning it symbolism you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. But I think you missed my point. If animals, fish, and humans are all living souls, then what makes us different? Nephesh refers to the physical lifeforce, but that doesn’t preclude humans from having an internal, spiritual component. In fact, that is the only thing that can make us different among all the other Nephesh. For the record, I don’t believe we become ghosts, as in eternal disembodied spirits. We will still have bodies, just of a different kind.



Then you agree that humans can possess immortality. So then, what makes them the exception and not the rule? Either it's a part of our spiritual makeup or it's not. When Paul said that only God is immortal, it means only God possesses it intrinsically as He is the only uncreated being. But again, that doesn't mean we don't share in his divinity because we are his children. Children inherit the attributers of their parents. It's true of our earthly parents and it's true of our heavenly Father.

Luke 20:36 is speaking of the little flock( Luke 12:32). These are the 144,000 of Rev 14:3-bought from the Earth. These are the bride of Christ, these will sit on thrones and rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus. ( Rev 1:6,,Rev 20:6)- Only those are promised heaven. The great crowd( Rev 7:9) no man can number are the ( John 10:16) other sheep who are not of that fold. These are promised the Earth( new) by Jesus( Matt 5:5) and by the psalmist-37:9,11,29)--Prov 2:21-22 teaches they are not leaving the Earth.

 

[Keiw]

How about Luke 20:36? When comparing our future resurrected bodies to that of the angels, it says, “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. There’s nowhere in the Bible where angels are ever described as dying or being killed. Even fallen angels are only said to be bound, judged, and thrown into the lake of fire. I know you guys believe in annihilationism, but I’d like to know how spiritual beings that are not flesh and blood can be destroyed. I don’t believe they can; they can only be contained. And that is exactly what Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 say of the angels that sinned and are kept in “eternal” chains under gloomy darkness.



By turning it symbolism you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. But I think you missed my point. If animals, fish, and humans are all living souls, then what makes us different? Nephesh refers to the physical lifeforce, but that doesn’t preclude humans from having an internal, spiritual component. In fact, that is the only thing that can make us different among all the other Nephesh. For the record, I don’t believe we become ghosts, as in eternal disembodied spirits. We will still have bodies, just of a different kind.



Then you agree that humans can possess immortality. So then, what makes them the exception and not the rule? Either it's a part of our spiritual makeup or it's not. When Paul said that only God is immortal, it means only God possesses it intrinsically as He is the only uncreated being. But again, that doesn't mean we don't share in his divinity because we are his children. Children inherit the attributers of their parents. It's true of our earthly parents and it's true of our heavenly Father.

We are made in Gods image=The ability to love, be forgiving, be merciful, kind, reasoning, etc. Where as the other cannot that well as humans can. God can give any immortality, So far only to Jesus and the majority of the 144,000 that are by his side, few remain on Earth.

 

[Butch5]

There are those denominations who contend that Christians adopted the concept of the immortal soul from the Greeks. Ironically, they have no problems with adopting the use of allegory, which originates from Greek thought. There are many verses I could use to challenge such a position, but for the sake of brevity, I will restrict it to just two: one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.

It’s easy to dispel this accusation alone from the account of the Witch of Endor summoning the spirit or ghost of Samuel (1Sa 28). Whether it was actually the spirit of Samuel or a demon, trick, or hallucination is not what’s relevant. The point is, it clearly demonstrates that the ancient Israelites understood the concept of an immortal, disembodied spirit (soul) existing apart from the body by at least 1010 BC. This was well before Greek influence and Hellenization began around 332 BC and peaked from 175 to 167 BC in Judea.

In the New Testament, we find the story, or parable, spoken about by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). Again, whether it’s meant to be taken literally or figuratively is not what’s important. What is important is that the rich man and Lazarus are depicted as having souls that live on beyond the grave, just as the spirit of Samuel. If the concept of the immortal soul came from the Greeks, it wouldn’t explain why Jesus thought to include such pagan ideas in his sermon. It also doesn’t explain why he never refuted it as being a false pagan concept. In fact, nowhere in the Bible will you find such a repudiation.

Do similarities exist between the Greek concept of the immortal soul and the dominant Christian belief in an immortal soul? Sure, just as similarities can be found between the Hebrews’ understanding of the underworld, Sheol, and that of their Mesopotamian and Levantine neighbors. However, just because similarities exist does not prove borrowing. There are many biblical motifs, for example, that share similar themes with pagan motifs without adoption. Also, similarities don’t automatically invalidate something as untrue. The Genesis flood account mirrors the Chaldean flood tradition as told in the Epic of Gilgamesh. However, no one would accuse Moses, the supposed writer of Genesis, of adopting pagan flood traditions.

And while there are some Christian theologians who were in part influenced by Aristotle's understanding of the soul, such as Thomas Aquinas, it wasn’t without justification. Thomas Aquinas’ rationale was that even pagans could discover the truth through philosophical reasoning, and if something is true, it belongs to the Lord, no matter the source. Therefore, it wasn’t so much borrowing as arriving at similar conclusions. In the same way, many ancient Greek philosophers also came to believe in the existence of a supreme being, because it was reasonable and logical to do so. Yet, no one would argue that Christians got their ideas about God from the Greeks, and rightfully so.

Moreover, whatever similarities exist, there exists a multitude of differences. The Greeks may have believed in disembodied souls but not bodily resurrection like the Christians. Nor did Christians believe in eternal disembodied souls as the Greeks did. Likewise, the Egyptians believed in the concept of the soul, but it vastly differed from Christian belief. They believed the soul was comprised of multiple components, wasn't fully disembodied, and could even come back to the tomb to revisit the body and partake of food and drink offerings. So, to say that Christians got their ideas of the soul and the afterlife from the pagans ignores the major differences between them.

There is another explanation why the Old Testament writers focused so little on the soul and why there is a much bigger emphasis on the afterlife, heaven, and eternal rewards in the New Testament. It is due to progressive revelation. Not everything was revealed to the Old Testament saints. They didn't know, for instance, that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, though they were given hints. Nor did they foresee the church age or the inclusion of the gentiles. Such things would have been alien to them. Therefore, more was revealed to the New Testament writers, including greater insights into the soul and afterlife.

Two questions, one, where did the idea of an immortal soul come from. Did, not start with Pagans? This idea came into being before Israel existed. My second question is, where in Scripture would we find this idea being taught as fact?