ANTI-Paul live, well & going strong

[rvmb]

Ever noticed how when some believers claims are challenged by the teachings of Paul they head for the teachings of the 12 in order to discredit Paul.
Christ made it CRYSTAL CLEAR
Paul is the Apostle AND Minister to believers today - Acts 9:10-15.
Paul himself confirmed his unique role ---------------Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
The other Apostles ALSO confirmed Paul's role------ Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9
What authority does that role give Paul ?
The Christ given authority to teach believers today (Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) what is required to enter eternal life.
That teaching simply is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
So believers, why do you push back against the teachings of Christ through Paul ?

 

[rvmb]

Even many newer Bibles appear to reduce the authority of Paul ?
Rom 11:13 from THE apostle to AN apostle
Rom 15:16 from THE minister to AN minister
Gal 2:7 Paul gospel OF to gospel TO.
Hmm, you don't believe it matters ?
Is Christ THE Christ or a Christ ?
Is GOD THE God or just a god ?
Is it the Book TO Revelation or the Book OF Revelation ?

 

[lforrest]

So believers, why do you push back against the teachings of Christ through Paul ?

Why do some so called Christians reject Paul? I believe it boils down to his teachings on God's Grace. It runs counter to their works based religious beliefs. And instead of testing their doctrines against scripture, they test scripture against their doctrines.

 

[rvmb]

Why do some so called Christians reject Paul? I believe it boils down to his teachings on God's Grace. It runs counter to their works based religious beliefs. And instead of testing their doctrines against scripture, they test scripture against their doctrines.

Short, sweet, accurate, straight to the point answer with no wasted time in long sentences that have the habit of causing (intended?) confusion.

 

[Davy]

Why do some so called Christians reject Paul? I believe it boils down to his teachings on God's Grace. It runs counter to their works based religious beliefs. And instead of testing their doctrines against scripture, they test scripture against their doctrines.

Thing is though, Paul addressed our need to have works also; he simply showed that our works isn't what saves us, but believing the Promise by Faith is. And today there are two major factions of Christian 'extremists' that exist on each side of that concept. Hyper-Grace has factions that deny the need to repent of future sin. Works factions instead lean more towards the traditions of the Jews making works part of the requirement for Christ's Salvation.

 

[rvmb]

Thing is though, Paul addressed our need to have works also; he simply showed that our works isn't what saves us, but believing the Promise by Faith is. And today there are two major factions of Christian 'extremists' that exist on each side of that concept. Hyper-Grace has factions that deny the need to repent of future sin. Works factions instead lean more towards the traditions of the Jews making works part of the requirement for Christ's Salvation.

What verses from Paul teach works/behaviour/etc are a requirement to enter eternal life ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 - No
Titu 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 - no
Your turn
ps 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10 teaches the life a believer (THOUGH SAVED) affects their rewards/loss in eternity

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ever noticed how when some believers claims are challenged by the teachings of Paul they head for the teachings of the 12 in order to discredit Paul.
Christ made it CRYSTAL CLEAR
Paul is the Apostle AND Minister to believers today - Acts 9:10-15.
Paul himself confirmed his unique role ---------------Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
The other Apostles ALSO confirmed Paul's role------ Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9
What authority does that role give Paul ?
The Christ given authority to teach believers today (Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) what is required to enter eternal life.
That teaching simply is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
So believers, why do you push back against the teachings of Christ through Paul ?

Because many do not understand how to read the NT in its proper hermeneutical and exegetical way.

 

[Davy]

What verses from Paul teach works/behaviour/etc are a requirement to enter eternal life ?

You obviously didn't really read what I said. I never made any such claim that works is what saves us, but instead just the opposite. Read what I said again.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You obviously didn't really read what I said. I never made any such claim that works is what saves us, but instead just the opposite. Read what I said again.

I liked it. That was a very good thought. After we ate saved we follow the covenant distinctives because we were saved unto good works. It's not a requirement for salvation; it's because we were saved.

 

[Davy]

I liked it. That was a very good thought. After we ate saved we follow the covenant distinctives because we were saved unto good works. It's not a requirement for salvation; it's because we were saved.

That's right, because Lord Jesus said what about our heart will be where our treasure is? Likewise even with what Apostle James said, many take it the wrong way. James never made a claim that 'works' is what saves us. He was only saying that if one is a true believer, they naturally are going to have works in Christ to go with their Faith. Works are a 'natural byproduct' of Faith. And I don't have to claim this is just my reasoning either, because this is actually what Lord Jesus taught...

Matt 25:22-30
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, "Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them."

23 His lord said unto him, "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine."

26 His lord answered and said unto him, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
KJV


Many preachers prefer to skip over the above Scripture by Lord Jesus. It doesn't go well in the congregation because most congregations only want to hear smooth things, like Isaiah 30:10 says.

 

[HealthyShape]

Even many newer Bibles appear to reduce the authority of Paul ?
Rom 11:13 from THE apostle to AN apostle
Rom 15:16 from THE minister to AN minister

Rom 11:13 - εἰμι ἐγὼ ἐθνῶν ἀπόστολος
- there is no "the" in the Greek text

Rom 15:16 - εἰς τὸ εἶναί με λειτουργὸν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
- there is no "the" in the Greek text

 

[Davy]

Because many do not understand how to read the NT in its proper hermeneutical and exegetical way.

Do you find that the belief by the Hyper-Grace movement claiming those in Christ need never repent of sin again is Biblical, or that it is an EXTREMIST doctrine that is not written in God's Word?

 

[Davy]

Why do some so called Christians reject Paul? I believe it boils down to his teachings on God's Grace. It runs counter to their works based religious beliefs. And instead of testing their doctrines against scripture, they test scripture against their doctrines.

But why does the Hyper-Grace movement teach 'extremist' doctrine that is not written, like those in Christ have no need to repent of future sin?

A lot of this battle comes from what I had said about extremist factions on both ends about Christ's Salvation. We are saved only by God's grace, which is a free gift from God, and is based on our Faith, not by our works.


Ideas promoted by:

Hyper-Grace:
Works don't save us. No need to repent of future sins. This promotes to believers that once they believe, then they can just go about their own business of following this world. Only the 'volunteers' who want to serve have the urge to do works in Christ.

Works Salvation:
It appears many brethren have yet to understand traditional Jewish influences within some Christian factions. Where do you think those come from? From Jewish converts to Christ, of course. Thus you will hear that sabbath keeping and basically keeping of much of God's law is also a responsibility for saved Christians.

Other:
Yes, there are 'other' extremist factions among Christianity too, like denominations that have some specific rules to follow that are not specifically written in God's Word, but are part of that Church organization's doctrine and requirements just to belong to that Church system.

Yet I... declare, backed by God's written Word:
That I am a "born again" believer on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah, His death and resurrection, and His Holy Spirit Promise, unto His Eternal Salvation. And that 'should'... mean, that ANY Church where God's Word is taught, I 'should'... be accepted as a Christian brother, even if there exists differences in Bible interpretation that goes against that Church organizational system's man-made doctrines.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Do you find that the belief by the Hyper-Grace movement claiming those in Christ need never repent of sin again is Biblical, or that it is an EXTREMIST doctrine that is not written in God's Word?

Rev. Michael Glodo (Reformed Theological Seminary) summarizes that the hermeneutical center of Scripture is Christ, and Christ is also the historical/redemptive-historical center—the one in whom God’s purposes reach their appointed fullness (cf. Gal. 4:4-5)

If our reading of Scripture consistently sidelines Christ as the goal and fulfillment, we are not merely disputing a “method”—we’re missing the interpretive pattern the risen Lord Himself used when He taught His disciples how to read the Scriptures.

Proper hermeneutics is Christ-centered.

How Does Reformed Theology Interpret Scripture? | Reformed Theological Seminary

One of the most enriching but also intractable challenges when it comes to interpreting the Bible is how the New Testament and the Old Testament are to relate. I think one of the geniuses of the Reformed tradition is letting the Bible’s own way of interpreting itself guide us in how we’re going...

rts.edu

 

[Davy]

Rev. Michael Glodo (Reformed Theological Seminary) summarizes that the hermeneutical center of Scripture is Christ, and Christ is also the historical/redemptive-historical center—the one in whom God’s purposes reach their appointed fullness (cf. Gal. 4:4-5)

If our reading of Scripture consistently sidelines Christ as the goal and fulfillment, we are not merely disputing a “method”—we’re missing the interpretive pattern the risen Lord Himself used when He taught His disciples how to read their Bibles.

Proper hermeneutics is Christ-centered.

How Does Reformed Theology Interpret Scripture? | Reformed Theological Seminary

One of the most enriching but also intractable challenges when it comes to interpreting the Bible is how the New Testament and the Old Testament are to relate. I think one of the geniuses of the Reformed tradition is letting the Bible’s own way of interpreting itself guide us in how we’re going...

rts.edu

I believe The Bible itself is its own best interpreter, and that is what we are to follow, two or more witnesses to confirm every word, 2 Corinthians 13:1.

 

[rvmb]

Rom 11:13 - εἰμι ἐγὼ ἐθνῶν ἀπόστολος
- there is no "the" in the Greek text

Rom 15:16 - εἰς τὸ εἶναί με λειτουργὸν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
- there is no "the" in the Greek text

These translations don't agree with you.
Rom 11:13
New International Version
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
New International Version
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
Berean Study Bible
I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles,
King James Bible
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
King James Bible
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
American King James Version
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Webster's Bible Translation
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Geneva Bible of 1587
For in that I speake to you Gentiles, in as much as I am the Apostle of ye Gentiles, I magnifie mine office,
Bishops' Bible of 1568
For I speake to you gentiles, in as much as I am the Apostle of the gentiles, I magnifie myne office.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
I speake vnto you Heythen: for in as moch as I am ye Apostle of the Heythen, I wil prayse myne office,
Tyndale Bible of 1526
I speake to you gentyls in as moche as I a m the Apostle of ye gentyls I will magnify myn office
Douay-Rheims Bible
For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Lamsa Bible
It is to you Gentiles that I speak, inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
Anderson New Testament
For I speak to you, Gentiles; inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
Haweis New Testament
For I address myself to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am indeed the apostle of the Gentiles
Mace New Testament
this concerns you Gentiles, for as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
Worsley New Testament
For I speak to you Gentiles: inasmuch indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles

 

[HealthyShape]

These translations don't agree with you.
Rom 11:13
New International Version
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
New International Version
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
Berean Study Bible
I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles,
King James Bible
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
King James Bible
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
American King James Version
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Webster's Bible Translation
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Geneva Bible of 1587
For in that I speake to you Gentiles, in as much as I am the Apostle of ye Gentiles, I magnifie mine office,
Bishops' Bible of 1568
For I speake to you gentiles, in as much as I am the Apostle of the gentiles, I magnifie myne office.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
I speake vnto you Heythen: for in as moch as I am ye Apostle of the Heythen, I wil prayse myne office,
Tyndale Bible of 1526
I speake to you gentyls in as moche as I a m the Apostle of ye gentyls I will magnify myn office
Douay-Rheims Bible
For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles
Lamsa Bible
It is to you Gentiles that I speak, inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles
Anderson New Testament
For I speak to you, Gentiles; inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
Haweis New Testament
For I address myself to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am indeed the apostle of the Gentiles
Mace New Testament
this concerns you Gentiles, for as I am the apostle of the Gentiles,
Worsley New Testament
For I speak to you Gentiles: inasmuch indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles

With me? I did not write the Greek text.

English translations can translate as they wish, of course. Many translate it as "the apostle" because of the context and because of how they interpret the claim Paul is making.

But the translation "an apostle" is a valid, even a more precise translation of the Greek grammar.

 

[Jack]

Paul wrote more Books in the Bible than anyone. Whoever rejects Paul rejects Jesus.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Davy]

DANGER: there does exist a dangerous situation with this kind of debate about Paul as an Apostle vs. the other Apostles, particularly Apostle Peter.

Per what Jesus said about Paul in Acts 9, Paul was His chosen vessel to take The Gospel to...
1. the Gentiles
2. to kings
3. to the children of Israel


But men's doctrines have deceived some by bad interpretation of the following Scripture, and wrongly try to create TWO Gospels when there has only ever been but ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
KJV

Apostle Paul's meaning above is simply that God chose him to take The Gospel mainly to the Gentiles, while Peter went to the Jews with the SAME Gospel.

Yet we know per what Jesus said that Paul also was to take The Gospel also to kings and to the children of Israel. And Paul did preach The Gospel to Jews also. That is how the other Apostles confirmed The Gospel that Apostle Paul had received. If The Gospel was different than what Paul taught, then Paul could not have preached The Gospel to the children of Israel like Jesus also ordained Paul to do.

So this debate by men's doctrines over The Gospel that Paul preached vs. what the other Apostles preached, is really all for naught, and is just from a false crept in unaware into the Church that at some point started such divisions that do not exist Biblically. What Paul preached agrees with what the other Apostles also preached.

 

[lforrest]

But why does the Hyper-Grace movement teach 'extremist' doctrine that is not written, like those in Christ have no need to repent of future sin?

A lot of this battle comes from what I had said about extremist factions on both ends about Christ's Salvation. We are saved only by God's grace, which is a free gift from God, and is based on our Faith, not by our works.


Ideas promoted by:

Hyper-Grace:
Works don't save us. No need to repent of future sins. This promotes to believers that once they believe, then they can just go about their own business of following this world. Only the 'volunteers' who want to serve have the urge to do works in Christ.

Works Salvation:
It appears many brethren have yet to understand traditional Jewish influences within some Christian factions. Where do you think those come from? From Jewish converts to Christ, of course. Thus you will hear that sabbath keeping and basically keeping of much of God's law is also a responsibility for saved Christians.

Other:
Yes, there are 'other' extremist factions among Christianity too, like denominations that have some specific rules to follow that are not specifically written in God's Word, but are part of that Church organization's doctrine and requirements just to belong to that Church system.

Yet I... declare, backed by God's written Word:
That I am a "born again" believer on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah, His death and resurrection, and His Holy Spirit Promise, unto His Eternal Salvation. And that 'should'... mean, that ANY Church where God's Word is taught, I 'should'... be accepted as a Christian brother, even if there exists differences in Bible interpretation that goes against that Church organizational system's man-made doctrines.

These are opposite extremes when it comes to the teaching on God's grace. Both are erroneous, but I was answering the question in the OP.

As for hyper grace I don't think I've met anyone who actually taught what it's opponents said about it.

Personally, I think the spiritual aspects can not be ignored, which points to our motivations. If someone has the Spirit they will do Good works, because they are lead by the Spirit.

Can one who is lead by the Spirit sin? No, when anyone does sin they are not following the Spirit's lead. This means they need to repent, or in other words change their mind. And in renewing the mind they come closer to the image of Christ.