Reason for The Crusades explained
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Sure. It’s the teaching of @Wrangler. He owns it.
“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill“ - Wrangler
They obeyed the teaching of Jesus, even unto death. They weren’t armed and they weren’t ready to kill. By the standard of Wrangler’s teaching, assuming that it is correct, the only conclusion we are left with is “They weren’t followers of Jesus”. Why? Wrangler tells us why those who aren’t armed and ready to kill their enemies aren’t followers of Jesus - they are “over-spiritualized” and “Men in form not in substance.”
Their blood cries out from the dust of the earth. Wrangler‘s teaching is a witness against them. Wrangler, not Jesus, is a witness against them - and Wrangler didn’t want to look at their history, calling it “misdirection”.
I thanked Wrangler for (presumably) being consistent in the application of his judgment. If he had any sense he would repent.
P.S.
I shouldn’t have to say this again but I find that I should: Wrangler’s teaching is wrong; Wrangler is wrong. Well-documented and preserved Christian history proves it.
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Wrangler
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I think you are treading on ground you are not serious about. Can’t answer basic questions, like what is your principle opposition to the Crusades? Does God hate? Is there a time to kill or is Ecclesiastes wrong? Why did Jesus command buying a sword? And Do you accuse Jesus of killing people in his heart also?
Then you aren’t thinking clearly.
Answered.
That’s a new one from you. Yes, God hates.
Ecclesiastes is right. (I think I answered this earlier but just in case I didn’t, there’s your answer.)
To fulfill a messianic prophecy. (Someone asked me this earlier in the thread. Since I’m not certain that it was you, there’s your answer.)
Answered.
“Christ’s soldiers always win their battles on their knees.” - C.H. Spurgeon
Consistent with Paul (2 Corinthians 10:4).
Compare:
Christ’s soldiers always win their battles with the weapons of the world they are armed with, ready to kill.
Not consistent with Paul; contradicting Paul (2 Corinthians 10:4).
Consistent with Paul (2 Corinthians 10:4).
Compare:
Christ’s soldiers always win their battles with the weapons of the world they are armed with, ready to kill.
Not consistent with Paul; contradicting Paul (2 Corinthians 10:4).
It seems to me that the majority of Jesus words, are words of Peace and Love for Neighbor, even Enemy, and Jesus words for war is definitely a minority idea.
God gave many instructions for War with Moses, Joshua and others, but God's Son has given specific instructions for peace not war!
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This is definitely something they would say back in the time of Moses, not hundreds of years later in the time of Jesus ministry!
There was a time when the Just War theory was not.
Church history supplies the answer to the question I posed.
Wrangler
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You are confusing non-responsive replies with an answer. Knowing your reply doesn't hold up to scrutiny, replying with "answered" shows how unserious you are.
There is a time to kill. Again, begging the question of what is your objection to the Crusades. It's really fanatical, an over-spiritualized obsession.
The Crusades, along with Christ whipping at people and striking down his enemies at Rev 19:15 proves Spurgeon is not correct.
Wrangler
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Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinion. Fact is, this thread is about the reasons for the Crusades and no one should doubt that is exactly what the Crusaders would say. “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill“This is definitely something they would say back in the time of Moses, not hundreds of years later in the time of Jesus ministry!
For me, one thing that is striking about the Bible is how no command is equivocal. For instance, modern day man-hating feminists say they'll respect a man "if he deserves it." The Bible says that a wife is to respect her husband and there is not qualification or condition where doing so is permissible. A stand out trait of Christianity is commitment and this commitment cannot be any less on matter of life and death - like why one buy a sword.
It's not to collect dust (or merely to fulfill prophecy as the over-spiritualized allege) but to use it for its intended purpose, i.e., to kill.
Peter learned the lesson when he was rebuked for using the sword. The earliest Christians obeyed Jesus’ teaching, didn’t arm themselves, and didn’t kill their enemies.
The Christian attitude to war changed over time. That’s a dividing line.
The Crusaders aren’t like the earliest Christians. They‘re like the Muslims.
Wrangler
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Wrong. Totally wrong. Jesus did not tell them to buy a sword to defend him but themselves after he was gone.
To your over-spiritualized, pacifist world view, Jesus commanded them to buy a sword only so he could rebuke them for using it for its intended purpose.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth. OTOH, there is a time to kill per Ecclesiastes. This you hold is only theoretically true. In practice, OTOH, it’s not time to kill - ever!
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Wrangler
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The Crusades are Christian history! Again, your over-spiritualism shows.
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“The early church
At first glance, most people, even Christians, doubt that the Sermon on the Mount can be effective in the ‘real’ world. As G.K. Chesterton said, ‘Christianity is a wonderful religion, too bad it has never been tried.’
Well, Chesterton is wrong. It has been tried and it has been politically effective. For the first three-plus centuries of the early church, Christians followed the nonviolent, positive way taught by Jesus. They demonstrated that it was not dreamy idealism, but politically effective.
The very first political challenge the early Christians had to face was whether ti join their fellow Jews in the revolt against Rome in the year 66. Reflecting on the example and teaching of Jesus, they refused to enter into the violence and withdrew across the Jordan to the city of Pella.
They were the only group, besides the small group of Jews that left to found a Torah-based community in Jamnia, to refuse. The rest of the Jews, including the Pharisees and the Essenes, joined the revolt. What Jesus feared would happen came to pass - the destruction of the Temple and the slaughter of the Jewish people.
The second great political challenge the early church faced was how to respond to Roman persecution. Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch, knew the apostle John personally. The five letters he wrote as he was dragged to Rome in the year 110 by Roman soldiers for execution are filled with counsel to continue to greet violence with love. One of the letters asked the people in Rome not to interfere with the martyrdom. He was happy to follow in his savior’s footsteps.
All the early fathers wrote as if the prophesy of Isaiah and Micah had come true in their midst. ‘They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore; but they shall all sit under their own fig trees, and no one shall make them afraid’ (Micah 4:4-5).
They took great pride that their way of loving their enemies was making converts to Christianity in great numbers. Tertullian, the crusty lawyer from North Africa, converted to Christianity after he witnessed their bravery under persecution. He later wrote in On Idolatry, ‘When Peter cut off Malchus’ ear, Jesus “cursed the works of the sword for ever after.”’
As Thomas Merton wrote in Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander: ‘The early church converted the Roman Empire through nonviolence.’ Their example emboldens us to re-embrace Jesus’ way.”
www.ncronline.org
@Wrangler please note that one of the bullet points in the article is “A renewed appreciation of the way the early church practiced Jesus’ teachings on peace.”
At first glance, most people, even Christians, doubt that the Sermon on the Mount can be effective in the ‘real’ world. As G.K. Chesterton said, ‘Christianity is a wonderful religion, too bad it has never been tried.’
Well, Chesterton is wrong. It has been tried and it has been politically effective. For the first three-plus centuries of the early church, Christians followed the nonviolent, positive way taught by Jesus. They demonstrated that it was not dreamy idealism, but politically effective.
The very first political challenge the early Christians had to face was whether ti join their fellow Jews in the revolt against Rome in the year 66. Reflecting on the example and teaching of Jesus, they refused to enter into the violence and withdrew across the Jordan to the city of Pella.
They were the only group, besides the small group of Jews that left to found a Torah-based community in Jamnia, to refuse. The rest of the Jews, including the Pharisees and the Essenes, joined the revolt. What Jesus feared would happen came to pass - the destruction of the Temple and the slaughter of the Jewish people.
The second great political challenge the early church faced was how to respond to Roman persecution. Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch, knew the apostle John personally. The five letters he wrote as he was dragged to Rome in the year 110 by Roman soldiers for execution are filled with counsel to continue to greet violence with love. One of the letters asked the people in Rome not to interfere with the martyrdom. He was happy to follow in his savior’s footsteps.
All the early fathers wrote as if the prophesy of Isaiah and Micah had come true in their midst. ‘They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore; but they shall all sit under their own fig trees, and no one shall make them afraid’ (Micah 4:4-5).
They took great pride that their way of loving their enemies was making converts to Christianity in great numbers. Tertullian, the crusty lawyer from North Africa, converted to Christianity after he witnessed their bravery under persecution. He later wrote in On Idolatry, ‘When Peter cut off Malchus’ ear, Jesus “cursed the works of the sword for ever after.”’
As Thomas Merton wrote in Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander: ‘The early church converted the Roman Empire through nonviolence.’ Their example emboldens us to re-embrace Jesus’ way.”
Why is the Catholic church moving away from just war theory?
Essay: Five reasons underlie the church's pivot to a positive vision of peace and a point of view that goes well beyond the just war theory.
www.ncronline.org
@Wrangler please note that one of the bullet points in the article is “A renewed appreciation of the way the early church practiced Jesus’ teachings on peace.”
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The Crusades are only a part of Christian history. Christian history began a thousand years before the time of the Crusaders.
I’m wearing early Christian history.
The article I quoted from in post #655 mentions a Catholic organization called Pax Christi. I encourage my readers to visit their web page -
“As early as the fifth century, St. Augustine of Hippo was considering the moral consequences of war. He was one of the first people to articulate a philosophical statement on war and peace, known as the Just War doctrine.”
www.catholicleague.org
What did the church do before the fifth century? For most of that time it followed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles on how to treat our enemies -> they did not arm themselves and kill their enemies.
Compare and contrast with @Wrangler’s teaching: “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”
JUST WAR DOCTRINE - Catholic League
Several pages in Catalyst address the controversy in the Middle East where a horrific genocide is being committed against Christians by a terrorist group
www.catholicleague.org
What did the church do before the fifth century? For most of that time it followed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles on how to treat our enemies -> they did not arm themselves and kill their enemies.
Compare and contrast with @Wrangler’s teaching: “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”
If you can locate a post of mine anywhere on the forum (or anywhere away from Christianity Board) where I’ve said that I hold it to be only theoretically true then please post it for everyone to see. Upon doing so, I will immediately close my account here and never return.
***
He won’t do it, readers. He can’t do it, readers. Why? He isn’t telling you the truth. At no time in my life have I ever thought, let alone written, that it is only theoretically true.
Wrangler
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Yes and this is the ONLY part of Christian history this thread is concerned about.
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