Reason for The Crusades explained

[Wrangler]

If you can locate a post of mine anywhere on the forum (or anywhere away from Christianity Board) where I’ve said that I hold it to be only theoretically true then please post it for everyone to see.

It's implied. You accuse me of having in my heart to kill (as if that's a sin) and I asked if you accuse Christ of the same thing? No direct answer implies your answer. Same with your refusal to answer your principle opposition to the Crusades.

It's funny that you react as though your over-spiritualized sensibilities are offended at the idea that Jesus would command us to buy a sword for the purposes it was intended, i.e., to kill. Now, you be like: I never said it was only theoretically true. Well, if its not only theoretically true, then what is it? LOL I'm really only interested in the soulful other part of it as it pertains to the Crusades. Thanks!

 

[Matthias]

Yes …

And the beginning part of that history stands solidly against ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

… and this is the ONLY part of Christian history this thread is concerned about.

A quick review of the thread should convince any reasonable person that this thread is concerned about more than only that period of Christian history; the author of the OP herself contributing to it.

 

[Matthias]

It's implied.

It isn’t implied.

. You accuse me of having in my heart to kill (as if that's a sin) and I asked if you accuse Christ of the same thing? No direct answer implies your answer. Same with your refusal to answer your principle opposition to the Crusades.

It's funny that you react as though your over-spiritualized sensibilities are offended at the idea that Jesus would command us to buy a sword for the purposes it was intended, i.e., to kill. Now, you be like: I never said it was only theoretically true. Well, if its not only theoretically true, then what is it? LOL I'm really only interested in the soulful other part of it as it pertains to the Crusades. Thanks!

If it isn’t only theoretically true then it is absolutely true, and that is my position.

 

[Wrangler]

And the beginning part of that history stands solidly against ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

Well, your starting at the wrong beginning. Let's start with the reasons FOR the Crusades. (You've demonstrated ample capacity to hijack the thread and write about reasons AGAINST doing justice). Just for fun, let's see you demonstrate you superior education compared to me of the reasons FOR the Crusades.

That's a good beginning part of the history for this thread. Thanks!

 

[Matthias]

Well, your starting at the wrong beginning.

The beginning of Christianity is the place to begin. Everything hinges on that.

Let's start with the reasons FOR the Crusades. (You've demonstrated ample capacity to hijack the thread and write about reasons AGAINST doing justice). Just for fun, let's see you demonstrate you superior education compared to me of the reasons FOR the Crusades.

That's a good beginning part of the history for this thread. Thanks!

I didn’t hijack the thread (my first post is #8), nor have I written against doing justice.

 

[Wrangler]

The beginning of Christianity is the place to begin.

Not really an impressive dissertation of the reasons FOR the Crusades, is it?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

People like that often wind up making the situation worse.

And when the crazy nutjobs want to be the next mass hooter, they always seek out places where people are unarmed so they can murder as many as possible.

No, we aren't called to live by the sword but at the same time self defense is not a sin

Mass hooters enjoy people such as yourself because they are easier to slaughter

The farmer didn’t believe in killing his enemies.

I wouldn't want to have to kill anyone either but if a situation comes down to either doing nothing and allowing a demon possessed liberal nutjob to kill me, or me exercising my God given right to defend myself than I'll defend myself.
If it's a sin to have a deadly weapon then you are accusing Jesus of committing sin when He told them to get a sword the second time He sent His disciples out. (Luke 22:36). Accusing Jesus of sinful behavior ends badly.

And you would be saying Romans 13 is advocating sin for the "servant of God" who bares the sword

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

You are trying to make your conscience to be Truth and it's not.

If your conscience does not allow you to have a weapon to defend yourself, then that's what YOU need to do.

But don't try to put that on others because it becomes false doctrine when doing so.

Jesus says: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:12 NIV

Yes and a honest person would say IF they became a murderous nutjob about to murder someone they would appreciate it if someone killed them to prevent them from murdering another human being

Killing someone in self defense is not murder and is not sinful.

Jesus made a whip of cords (rushes/reeds) and drove people, sheep, and cattle out of the temple, not physical harm to persons.

Yeah, so Jesus was threatening to hit them with that whip if they did not get out so He used the threat of physical violence to make His point.

Nobody can prove Jesus did not actually hit anybody with that whip. Even if He didn't, He did use the threat of physical violence

You promote crime against humanity

Only satan and his servants would teach people to be unarmed and lay down so evil can destroy them

Either way isn't the Peacemaker following Jesus words?

Yes,, always try to establish peace but obtain a weapon just in case.

War is in itself a crime against humanity

That code for lay down and allow evil to destroy you.

That's satan's message alright

(David E. Aune, Word Biblical Commentary, Revelation 17-22, Vol. 52C, p. 1179)

No leading of the Holy Spirit to be able to study and be led of the Lord for yourself???

Sadly the vast majority of commentaries contain false doctrine so beware.

You accuse me of having in my heart to kill (as if that's a sin)

Having the desire yo kill is sinful.

Having to kill someone in self defense should be the last thing any Christian would ever want to have to do and should be treated as a last resort in extreme circumstances

Such as in a school with children and here comes a crazy nutjob murderous liberal gunman shooting at innocent children

You speak as someone who believes it's OK for all the innocent children to be murdered by the gunman and it's a sin for anybody to use deadly force to stop the gunman. That's a twisted and demonic point of view right there

The Lord has killed many in self defense of His people - do you think He committed sin when He did so???

 

[Matthias]

Not really an impressive dissertation of the reasons FOR the Crusades, is it?

The reasons for the Crusades have been identified in the OP and restated several times in the thread.

Unless we go back to the beginning of Christianity we cut ourselves off from Jesus, the apostles, and the early generations of Christians. Without taking all of them into account, ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” cannot be properly evaluated.

 

[walter]

And when the crazy nutjobs want to be the next mass hooter, they always seek out places where people are unarmed so they can murder as many as possible.

No, we aren't called to live by the sword but at the same time self defense is not a sin

Mass hooters enjoy people such as yourself because they are easier to slaughter




I wouldn't want to have to kill anyone either but if a situation comes down to either doing nothing and allowing a demon possessed liberal nutjob to kill me, or me exercising my God given right to defend myself than I'll defend myself.
If it's a sin to have a deadly weapon then you are accusing Jesus of committing sin when He told them to get a sword the second time He sent His disciples out. (Luke 22:36). Accusing Jesus of sinful behavior ends badly.

And you would be saying Romans 13 is advocating sin for the "servant of God" who bares the sword

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

You are trying to make your conscience to be Truth and it's not.

If your conscience does not allow you to have a weapon to defend yourself, then that's what YOU need to do.

But don't try to put that on others because it becomes false doctrine when doing so.




Yes and a honest person would say IF they became a murderous nutjob about to murder someone they would appreciate it if someone killed them to prevent them from murdering another human being

Killing someone in self defense is not murder and is not sinful.




Yeah, so Jesus was threatening to hit them with that whip if they did not get out so He used the threat of physical violence to make His point.

Nobody can prove Jesus did not actually hit anybody with that whip. Even if He didn't, He did use the threat of physical violence




Only satan and his servants would teach people to be unarmed and lay down so evil can destroy them




Yes,, always try to establish peace but obtain a weapon just in case. View attachment 75792




That code for lay down and allow evil to destroy you.

That's satan's message alright




No leading of the Holy Spirit to be able to study and be led of the Lord for yourself???

Sadly the vast majority of commentaries contain false doctrine so beware.




Having the desire yo kill is sinful.

Having to kill someone in self defense should be the last thing any Christian would ever want to have to do and should be treated as a last resort in extreme circumstances

Such as in a school with children and here comes a crazy nutjob murderous liberal gunman shooting at innocent children

You speak as someone who believes it's OK for all the innocent children to be murdered by the gunman and it's a sin for anybody to use deadly force to stop the gunman. That's a twisted and demonic point of view right there

The Lord has killed many in self defense of His people - do you think He committed sin when He did so???

Jesus says: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:12 NIV

You say:
Yes and a honest person would say IF they became a murderous nutjob about to murder someone they would appreciate it if someone killed them to prevent them from murdering another human being

Killing someone in self defense is not murder and is not sinful.
---------------------------

Thanks for the conversation, makes sense, but I am not the judge and in my understanding I can't kill another to prevent him from murdering another being, unless it is a last resort and I have no other choice, but what I can do is listen to everything Jesus says and try to put it into practice, not an easy job.

Whether I was trying to prevent a person from killing another or prevent them from killing me, is it necessary that I have to kill them?
I would think Jesus would want me to defend myself and definitely stop this person and do whatever is necessary to stop this person, this would not be a sin.

Listening to the overwhelming majority of Jesus words, I don't think I can be a judge and jury, and take another person's life, when I can stop this person. But I do not think that defending myself has anything to do with engaging in war, against other nations.

I have brothers and sisters in every nation in the world, how can I engage in war against them and kill them, and love my neighbor as myself?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I would think Jesus would want me to defend myself and definitely stop this person and do whatever is necessary to stop this person, this would not be a sin.

Then if faced with an extreme situation, you would have to either kill or be killed.

Whether I was trying to prevent a person from killing another or prevent them from killing me, is it necessary that I have to kill them?

God deemed it necessary to kill a lot of people. When Jesus returns, He'll be pouring out God's wrath killing many.

Mercy rejoices against judgement and He doesn't want to have to do that, but evil has to be exterminated.

People have free will and once they turn themselves over to evil it most cases the only way to stop them is to put them out of their body

 

[Matthias]

If the Crusaders of old were to have come across a community like Christianity Board, everyone in the community would have been killed. @Wrangler - his heros would have torn him apart. The OP’s heros wouldn’t have spared her. The Catholics in our community? The Crusaders would have put an end to them too.

They would have spared me though.

* Just checking to see if you’re awake out there. It wouldn’t have mattered to the Crusaders. A noncombatant Jewish monotheist would have been killed along with everyone else in the CB community. *

The Crusaders.



Catholics on a mission, not the great commission.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Catholics in our community? The Crusaders would have put an end to them too.

Yeah well the catholics did some crusading themselves

They and the calvinists / lutherns all murdered people for refusing to follow their false doctrine.

 

[Matthias]

Yeah well the catholics did some crusading themselves

Almost all of the Crusaders were Catholics. It is documented that the Crusaders killed Catholics if they encountered them in a mixed community. Catholics killing fellow Catholics - good deal, eh?

The Byzantine Christians? The Crusaders put them to the sword too. I wish @Wrangler and his family could have been there. The Crusaders would have taught him a real lesson or two.

They and the calvinists / lutherns all murdered people for refusing to follow their false doctrine.

There were no Calvinists or Lutherans in existence at the time of the Crusades. Let’s go ahead and ignore the constraints of history and place them there too. Catholics vs. Calvinists and Lutherans - a make believe preview of attractions coming 500 years later.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Catholics killing fellow Catholics - good deal, eh?

It is a good deal as it thins out the heard.

Just like moslems whackin moslems is good as it thins out their heard

There were no Calvinists or Lutherans in existence at the time of the Crusades.

The calvinists and lutherans did plenty of crusading and they did lots of murder in the Name of the Lord.

This is yet another way we know calvinists, lutherans, and catholics are not of the Lord.

They are of the god of this world (satan)

 

[walter]

Then if faced with an extreme situation, you would have to either kill or be killed.

If it was my last resort yes, but I will not engage in war against any Nation, that would not be my last resort!

When God gave instructions to go to war, I would follow his instructions, if I lived thousands of years ago when he made those instructions. Now He gives new instructions by means of his Son and I follow Jesus instructions of Love of Neighbor and Peace.

When Jesus returns, He'll be pouring out God's wrath killing many.

Which scripture are you referring to?

Mercy rejoices against judgement and He doesn't want to have to do that, but evil has to be exterminated.

Which scripture are you referring to?

People have free will and once they turn themselves over to evil it most cases the only way to stop them is to put them out of their body

yes that makes sense, but I still have to put Jesus words in the practice in my life, I am not the judge, I like to follow the words Jesus explains that is recorded in the Bible, do you have a scripture in mind that explains what you are saying?

 

[Matthias]

It is a good deal as it thins out the heard.

From your mouth to the ears of @Wrangler.

Just like moslems whackin moslems is good as it thins out their heard

The Crusaders. Just like Muslims. I pointed that out to Wrangler.

The calvinists and lutherans did plenty of crusading and they did lots of murder in the Name of the Lord.

This is yet another way we know calvinists, lutherans, and catholics are not of the Lord.

They are of the god of this world (satan)

Any regular reader of my posts would have seen me write about my appreciation of irony. Wrangler would kill the Crusaders he champions. Toss in armed and ready to kill Calvinists and Lutherans - he would kill them too.

 

[Matthias]

“In this corner, the Crusaders, Roman Catholics, armed to the teeth and ready to kill.”

“In that corner, @Wrangler, unitarian, armed to the teeth and ready to kill.”

Look away, little children. Look away.

* Ding, ding. *

 

[walter]

unitarian

google says Unitarians both go to war and do not go to war. I don't know too much about it.

 

[Matthias]

google says Unitarians both go to war and do not go to war. I don't know too much about it.

I know much about it. What Google said is true. Some of them do, some of them don’t. @Wrangler is one who would, if he could. He’s “ready to rumble.”

 

[walter]

Is Jesus teaching both peace and a spiritual War?

AI Overview

Yes, Jesus teaches both peace and spiritual conflict:
He calls for internal peace and love for others ("peacemakers," "love your enemies") while also warning of division and conflict that His message brings ("not to bring peace, but a sword"), and commands followers to engage in spiritual warfare against evil, sin, and Satan, not physical war for His kingdom. His peace (shalom) is deep harmony with God, achieved through radical love and obedience, even amidst worldly turmoil, which requires actively confronting evil through spiritual strength, not worldly weapons.

Teachings on Peace

• Internal & External Harmony: Jesus promises "peace I leave with you; my peace I give you," a deep inner calm not dependent on worldly circumstances (John 14:27).
• Love & Forgiveness: He taught radical love, including loving enemies and turning the other cheek (Matthew 5), bringing reconciliation (Ephesians 2:14).
• Prince of Peace: The prophecy (Isaiah 9:6) points to Jesus bringing ultimate peace, which begins with right relationship with God.

Teachings on Spiritual Conflict ("Sword")

• Division: Jesus warned, "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword," meaning His message divides people and families, creating conflict with those who reject Him (Matthew 10:34).
• Spiritual Warfare: He confronted evil spirits and taught prayers to be delivered from the "Evil One," signifying an ongoing spiritual battle against Satan, sin, and the world.
• Active Engagement: Jesus actively confronted religious hypocrisy (cleansing the temple) and the power of sin, demonstrating that peace requires active opposition to evil, not passive avoidance.

The Balance

• Internal vs. External: The "sword" is not for His followers to wield physically for His kingdom (which isn't of this world), but represents the spiritual turmoil and division His truth causes, requiring believers to be both peacemakers and spiritually resilient warriors.
• Love & Power: Christians must live peacefully but contend earnestly for the faith, relying on the Holy Spirit for strength to fight evil spiritually, not physically.