Ammillennialism's illegitimate redefining and switching around of the meaning of Greek words and biblical concepts

[jeffweeder]

Gen 1
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely (unconditionally) eat [the fruit] from every tree of the garden; 17 but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat, otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die [because of your disobedience].”


How did Adam die on the day he ate?

He did not die physically on that day, so it must have been Spiritually. He was unable to access the tree of life until such a time as he was born again of the Spirit AND born again Physically.

 

[Zao is life]

Right, they were spiritually dead

Additionally, zao is a verb and zoe is a noun, so I'm not following your argument about comparing the patterns of use between the two?

How does it come about that the human spirit has life [zoe]? Does it give itself life?

Only when you can answer the question will you have the whole truth - because till now you have two things conflated in your interpretation of some parts of scripture:

Creature: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (when the creature is no longer living | alive [zao[)

Creator: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Since the fall of Adam, the creature did not have eternal life [zoe aionios].

Creator life given in the creation: For as the Father has life [zoe] in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life [zoe] within Himself. -- John 5:26 (He became flesh, taking on Himself the seed of Adam - the DNA of which had already been created by Him)

And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, [zoe aionios] and this life [zoe] is in His Son. He who has the Son has (everlasting) life [zoe); he who does not have the Son of God does not have (everlasting) life [zoe]. - 1 John 5:11-12

Creator: All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
In Him was life [zoe], and the life was the light of men. -- John 1: 3-4.

There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we IN HIM; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we BY him. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6.

In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring. -- Acts 17:28.

How does it come about that the human spirit has life [zoe]? Does it give itself life? The human spirit of created human beings (Adam and Eve) and all their seed does not have life IN ITSELF:

Creature: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (when the creature is no longer living | alive [zao[)

Creator: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7.

This is God's revelation to us in the Bible - and only once you begin to understand the biblical revelation of God, will you fully understand the difference the breath of life in the creation (which does not remain with the creature eternally because the creature dies) and eternal life IN CHRIST, which will ensure the resurrection of the body and immortality.

Throughout the New Testament,

Zoe pertains to life - the only source of which is the Spirit of God.
Zao - whenever it is used in reference to the creature - pertains to the creation - to living | being alive - the creature.

Eternal life: zoe aionois
To live | to be alive: zao.

@David in NJ Your human intelligence that helps you create clever human poems and apply them to others when the same poems apply to you in ways that you thought they apply only to others will not help you to understand the Divine Word:​

THE Answer you will Find
when you look at the Divine
Apostle John, yea he knew
i suggest you SEE from his View
now here is the Clue:
"Light that gives to each man that lives"

copy @amigo de christo - because if you are agreeing with David then you are one of the people you are speaking of below:

And yet time for another clue
for the answer is no longer found in many a pew

From whence leaders of the flock do fleece
and all who sit under them shall have no peace

And though these leaders cloaked in wool
sounding ever wise do only fool

Fool themselves and all who sit under their lips

If you are agreeing with David against the Divine revelation of the distinction between living | being alive [zao] and the life [zoe] that is its only source, then you are not doing this:

for from the cup of the LORD does a lamb only Sip .

But instead like David, you are doing this - you only need to replace the word "book" with the words "pew doctrines"

And in one book they sure love to read
and unto those words do they take heed .

So you are blind if you agree because you cannot see, and are unable to practice what you preach:

BIBLE TIME in the building and in the land
for anything contrary is but sinking sand .

Truth is the meat of those who are his
and the cup of a harlot to a sheep smells like whiz

They shall not sip , they shall not drink
for the cup of a harlot does surely stink .

 

[Zao is life]

He did not die physically on that day, so it must have been Spiritually. He was unable to access the tree of life until such a time as he was born again of the Spirit AND born again Physically.

No one is born again physically. To be born again is to be born of the Spirit of life [zoe] when you are still physically alive [zao] in the same body.

 

[Zao is life]

Right, they were spiritually dead

Additionally, zao is a verb and zoe is a noun, so I'm not following your argument about comparing the patterns of use between the two?

No one is born again physically. To be born again is to be born of the Spirit of life [zoe] while you are still physically alive [zao] in the same body

- which will ensure the quickening (making alive again) of your dead body - because Christ's dead body was quickened,

and will ensure the resurrection of your body from the dead - because Christ's dead body was raised from the dead,

and will ensure your immortality following the resurrection of your body because now the author and source of life [zoe] in human form is alive [zao] to the ages of the ages.

 

[Zao is life]

@Marty fox @Lizbeth @Archie @Hazelelponi @VictoryinJesus

Matt 27:51-53
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

What is MISSING in the Picture given here to us of these saints???

Also, i notice a very very sad behavior of many who will run and stick there head in the sand when shown God's words do not approve of doctrines that speak against His words.

Where did we SEE that before??? = GENESIS 3:10
“I heard Your voice in the garden,” he replied, “and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”

Then why are you hiding from the fact that no one can be born again physically but we are born again of the Spirit of life [zoe] while we are physically alive [zao] in the same body?

They are hiding in different ways and about different things than you are.

 

[Zao is life]

And yet time for another clue
for the answer is no longer found in many a pew
From whence leaders of the flock do fleece
and all who sit under them shall have no peace
And though these leaders cloaked in wool
sounding ever wise do only fool
Fool themselves and all who sit under their lips
for f rom the cup of the LORD does a lamb only Sip .
And in one book they sure love to read
and unto those words do they take heed .
BIBLE TIME in the building and in the land
for anything contrary is but sinking sand .
Truth is the meat of those who are his
and the cup of a harlot to a sheep smells like whiz
They shall not sip , they shall not drink
for the cup of a harlot does surely stink .

Your poems are often so true but they sometimes apply to you in ways you thought not. You fool yourself by your own self-confidence in your own human understanding of what is Divine.

I like @David in NJ 's poems also for the same reason, because they are full of truth, but sadly what I said above is true of brother David too.

 

[Marvelloustime]

And yet time for another clue
for the answer is no longer found in many a pew
From whence leaders of the flock do fleece
and all who sit under them shall have no peace
And though these leaders cloaked in wool
sounding ever wise do only fool
Fool themselves and all who sit under their lips
for f rom the cup of the LORD does a lamb only Sip .
And in one book they sure love to read
and unto those words do they take heed .
BIBLE TIME in the building and in the land
for anything contrary is but sinking sand .
Truth is the meat of those who are his
and the cup of a harlot to a sheep smells like whiz
They shall not sip , they shall not drink
for the cup of a harlot does surely stink .

@amigo de christo

 

[Zao is life]

Right, they were spiritually dead

Additionally, zao is a verb and zoe is a noun, so I'm not following your argument about comparing the patterns of use between the two?

By implication some of the verses using the word zao are also referring to the life [zoe] of Christ, which is the source of living | being alive [zao] ("The just shall live [zao] by faith")

The pattern of how the word zao is used in the New Testament and what it means when it is used as compared with the pattern of how the word zoe is used and what it means when it is used can be ignored so as to interpret a verse like Revelation 3:1 the way you have chosen to interpret it.

 

[Lizbeth]

Here are just FOUR PROPHECIES that have NOT been fulfilled

The PROPHECY of Matt 23:37-39 has NOT been fulfilled

The PROPHECY of Zechariah 14:1-5 has NOT been fulfilled

The PROPHECY of 1 Thess 1:10 and 3:11-13 and 4:13-18 has NOT been fulfilled

The PROPHECY of 2 Thess chapters 1 and 2 have NOT been fulfilled

Brother @Archie and @VictoryinJesus An @Hazelelponi , where are you? the LORD has us protected by His every word

Perhaps Zech 14 was partially fulfilled, because living waters did flow out from Jerusalem.....in the early believers who escaped the siege of Jerusalem and flowed out from there to other parts of the world with the gospel. "out of your belly will flow living waters". Interestingly I think I remember reading that they fled through a tunnel that had been built under the city to bring water to it...Hezekiah's tunnel. Jerusalem was left desolate because the possessors of the gospel had either been martyred or fled the city (as well as that the glory of the Lord had departed). That seems to be a pattern for what is happening with the church in the last couple of decades or so too. Many have fled churches because of false doctrines and also because the presence of the Lord has departed many churches....and they are receiving judgment in the form of deceptions......this house is being left desolate too now, sadly.

I take it that some part of some prophecies were fulfilled in type (ensample to the church) and some were partially fulfilled....but awaiting complete fulfillment in the end.

I fully understand what you are saying about looking for an earthly reign. I'm one of only two people who posts in these forums who cannot truly be called Premillnnial, nor Amillennial, nor Post millennial (although the other person has said I still fall under Premil)..

To shorten it, comparing scripture with scripture I have seen statements by Jesus, by Paul, by Peter, and in the Revelation, pointing unambiguously to a new heavens and new earth that commences when Christ returns - but the same goes for Revelation 20's thousand years being a literal period commencing at the same time - and that confuses most, of course, and makes some think I've lost it - so though I have posted about it, I don't expect anyone will understand what I believe scripture is telling us, or why.

It is nice when people disagree with me without going to war with name-calling and insults leveled either directly or subtly though. Truly what comes out of some of the people's mouths who post in these forums is like sulfur.

It actually involves a good few other subjects which I believe have been misunderstood for many hundreds of years - including the subject of the OP of this thread - but it's way too much to go into. Especially on a Thursday

I also know that Jesus has far more important priorities than understanding prophecy - priorities which I personalize like what Paul tells us is the will of God for us in 1 Thessalonians 4:3-9.

Which is why I've been sorry I posted in these forums and wished I had not - like this thread. Wish I had not even posted it. Hopefully I'll be able to withdraw myself for a few months again soon as I have done in the past. Hopefully the next time I won't ever even look at the forums ever again, so as not to be tempted to say something.

God bless you and thank you for disagreeing respectfully where you disagree.

Well I thank you for discussing this subject peaceably with me. I can't tell who started all the arguing, as I haven't been able to keep up with the whole thread and all the posts. It is sometimes hard to know who started a fight anyhow, especially if it involves a kind of gradual rise in temperature. ;)

2Peter 3 clinched it for me...realizing that the thousand years is as a day in that passage is referring to the time of waiting for the Lord to return..it is this time of longsuffering which we are to account as salvation, and which was causing scoffers to mock and chide, where is the promise of His coming? And seeing that much of Revelation is a kind of summation and reiteration of the gospel in general, reiterating so much of the scripture that was written before Rev was given.

Psalm 90, where the thousand years is a day or watch in the night is mentioned....even reading it just this morning, seems to be likening that period on a personal level as the length of an individual's life. (In that, could we arguably say that He is coming for each of us in the end of our life here on earth..?) Our temporal bodies (dead because of sin) will be dissolved in the grave, and we look for a whole new life and "world" to come. And none of us know the day and hour of our deaths. I mean, that is what is most important anyhow, how we spend our lives while we are here to "attain" to the resurrection.....the vast preponderance of believers and all people who ever existed will not be alive on the earth at the end of this age and coming of the Lord to wind things up in a general corporate way. Only one generation out of all the generations who ever lived will be alive at that time, so I think that helps me to keep it in perspective. "It is appointed unto man but once to die and then the judgment." Judgment awaits everyone regardless of who is "alive and remains" in the end or not. There can be more than one layer of truth embedded in the word of the Lord, when He speaks......"one thing has He spoken, two things have I heard".

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus was not speaking to people who were physically dead. He was speaking to people who were physically alive {zao] but did not have the indwelling of the Spirit of life [zoe] in them - hence, dead.

By implication some of the verses using the word zao are also referring to the life [zoe] of Christ, which is the source of living | being alive [zao] ("The just shall live [zao] by faith")

The pattern of how the word zao is used in the New Testament and what it means when it is used as compared with the pattern of how the word zoe is used and what it means when it is used can be ignored so as to interpret the above verse as you have chosen to interpret it.

I can't stop you - but I can stop debating it with you because we won't agree - which our past experience tells me would be wise.

Just a thought, but I wonder how the Greeks of the first century who didn't believe in the Living God used that word "zoe", as opposed to "zao".....? Could they have sometimes used those words interchangeably? It might be useful to know how they were understood and used generally back then. or maybe it was already discussed.

 

[David in NJ]

Then why are you hiding from the fact that no one can be born again physically but we are born again of the Spirit of life [zoe] while we are physically alive [zao] in the same body?

They are hiding in different ways and about different things than you are.

You MUST be Born Again = Spirit gives Life to man's spirit

If a man hide from this then he miss

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree. CBN's news reader said the other day that if we are Christians then we "should be" Christian Zionists. Well Christian Zionists should have Jesus on the throne in Zion and should gratefully receive the covenant God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the blood of the Messiah (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The Zionism that established the modern state of Israel does neither - and God has been allowing its enemies to place them in - now a permanent - existential battle which has produced wars on all fronts.

That reminds me of where Jesus said there would be "wars until the end."

I try to keep in mind that ultimately it is the LORD who raises and lowers kings and kingdoms. Geopolitical affairs really are HIS business, not ours. Though of course we may pray concerning suffering and injustices etc. But our overall mandate as the church is the gospel, period full stop.

 

[rwb]

Answer my queries please. This is starting to get old. You are acting like a Premiller here with your avoidance. You are also playing with words to justify your position. Scripture nowhere teaches "the whole man consisting of body and spirit as living soul." That is you! 1 Thessalonians 5:23 teaches: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Of course "being a soul is to be alive or have life."

The unsaved who are cast into hell only have a living soul and body. They are spiritually dead. That is what needs quickened, resurrected and empowered. Not our soul who is sinful.

Prove biblically what you allege! I've answered your queries repeatedly now, but you haven't bothered to address the questions I raise with biblical proof texts! It is not I who says man was created with body + the breath of life which is spirit and the two together became a living soul. I showed you from the Bible this is truth, and you ignore it! You use language you have apparently been taught, because nowhere in Scripture can I find man being "spiritually dead", or "soulish man", and you say I am playing with words!

The unsaved shall be called before God in mortal flesh made alive by spirit (breath of life) once again living souls. Because their names shall not be found written in the book of life, they as complete living souls (flesh & spirit) shall suffer the second death as they are cast into the lake of fire. Why? Because during their lifetime on earth they were never born again, never had partaken of eternal life through the Spirit of Christ. Man is not cast into the lake of fire for a second death because they are "spiritually dead"! Many shall die in unbelief, and suffer the fate that awaits them because they are never born again! "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN"!

Where do you find only the 'soul' of man is sinful, as though that is not both body & spirit of all who are in unbelief?

Now the name calling begins, I quote, "You are acting like a Premiller here with your avoidance", therefore it's time to end this discussion! Because I don't desire to again be drawn into resorting in kind as I have in the past! You see that's a good example of how born-again man desires to do good through the new nature he has through the Spirit of God in him, but the old nature is still there and desires to return evil for evil. It's not a spiritual battle waged between believers' spirit and soul; it's a spiritual battle waged within the hearts and minds that comes from the fact that sin is still present within man as long as we are clothed in mortal body of flesh in this world.

 

[Lizbeth]

You sometimes warn about adding words to the book of Revelation, as it talks about in Revelation 22:18, yet what are you doing here? It does not say "1,000 literal years". You are adding the word "literal" to the sacred text. It says "the thousand years" or "a thousand years", not "1,000 literal years".

Do you think the word "thousand" is always used literally in scripture? It's not. Unless you think it's used literally in verses like these...

Deuteronomy 7:9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Do you think this is talking about God keeping covenant and mercy for a thousand generations and no longer doing so for the 1,001st generation?

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Is this verse saying that only the cattle on a thousand hills belongs to God, but not the cattle on the rest of the hills?

If you ever want to discuss these things honestly like an adult, let me know.

Except for your last sentence, amen. ;) And where it says a thousand years is as a day to the Lord, and vice versa, is telling us it is not literal. "Thousand" in so many instances means "a great many" or maybe we could sometimes even take it to mean "all"...or really both are true. He owns the cattle on ALL the hills, which are a great many hills. And He is coming on the last day at the end of the "thousand years"....that is a great many years as well as all the years until the last of them.

 

[amigo de christo]

That reminds me of where Jesus said there would be "wars until the end."

I try to keep in mind that ultimately it is the LORD who raises and lowers kings and kingdoms. Geopolitical affairs really are HIS business, not ours. Though of course we may pray concerning suffering and injustices etc. But our overall mandate as the church is the gospel, period full stop.

The Lord do as He do my dear sister . Yes indeed .
But often what folks whose hopes be in these earthern govts and earthen jerusalem
do what was not to be done . Put their hopes IN such men and such earthen temples and things .
OH you are correct GOD allows and does AS HE sees fit .
EVEN the ten kings , of whom we are not to hope in , give their kingdom unto the beast .
You are correct , OUR mandate is not earthern pacts for peace or anything . Our mandate IS the gospel .
For by peace men often destroy much . And how can a man have peace with GOD ,
LEST HE BE IN CHRIST JESUS . There will be no peace to the wicked .
And the only way to be justfied , made righteous , to be reconciled to GOD
IS IN JESUS CHRIST . which means ONE would have BELEIVED IN HIM .
We are very near the end my sister . And a powerful d elusion of judgment
has been given , has been sent , unto all who rejected the LOVE of the TRUTH whereby they COULD
have been saved . a lie they call love and cliam to b e the way to peace , to GOD and even OF GOD . only
its not GOD at all . This god and its love and its peace is none o ther than
el serpent , the great red dragon , satan . For the destruction of all of h umanity at their end . He is
a liar and the father of lies . And the sheep shall not heed its cry
for greater IS HE that is in the sheep than he who is of the world .
When it said ALL not in the lamb s book of life will worship the beast , It meant ALL not IN the lambs book of life .
JESUS has the sheep sister . And we do surely and shall surely POINT ONLY UNTO HE , CHRIST JESUS , whom GOD did send .

 

[Lizbeth]

In Genesis GOD foretold of the LITERAL 1,000 years

SIN prevented Adam from reaching 1,000 LITERAL years = Adam lived 930 LITERAL years

In Revelation, AFTER the First Resurrection, Satan is locked up, sent to prison and Sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations.

Uh- Oh = Satan is deceiving the nations RIGHT NOW as we speak = which shines LIGHT on amil ERROR

OK, now that we KNOW Satan walks about as a ROAMING lion seeking whom he may devour..........ROAMING the earth

Rev 20:4-6 = LITERAL First Resurrection as Prophesied by JESUS in His Gospel now to rule and reign for 1,000 years

Gotcha ya!!!

Yes, I was wondering about the thousand years as pertaining to a person's lifetime (Psalm 90). Adam fell short, due to sin. And even that might just be showing he fell short of eternity, of living forever. But brother, nobody can live to a thousand years literally nowadays in any case. God has cut our lives lived in the flesh down to 70 or 80 years generally.

 

[WPM]

Prove biblically what you allege! I've answered your queries repeatedly now, but you haven't bothered to address the questions I raise with biblical proof texts! It is not I who says man was created with body + the breath of life which is spirit and the two together became a living soul. I showed you from the Bible this is truth, and you ignore it! You use language you have apparently been taught, because nowhere in Scripture can I find man being "spiritually dead", or "soulish man", and you say I am playing with words!

The unsaved shall be called before God in mortal flesh made alive by spirit (breath of life) once again living souls. Because their names shall not be found written in the book of life, they as complete living souls (flesh & spirit) shall suffer the second death as they are cast into the lake of fire. Why? Because during their lifetime on earth they were never born again, never had partaken of eternal life through the Spirit of Christ. Man is not cast into the lake of fire for a second death because they are "spiritually dead"! Many shall die in unbelief, and suffer the fate that awaits them because they are never born again! "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN"!

Where do you find only the 'soul' of man is sinful, as though that is not both body & spirit of all who are in unbelief?

Now the name calling begins, I quote, "You are acting like a Premiller here with your avoidance", therefore it's time to end this discussion! Because I don't desire to again be drawn into resorting in kind as I have in the past! You see that's a good example of how born-again man desires to do good through the new nature he has through the Spirit of God in him, but the old nature is still there and desires to return evil for evil. It's not a spiritual battle waged between believers' spirit and soul; it's a spiritual battle waged within the hearts and minds that comes from the fact that sin is still present within man as long as we are clothed in mortal body of flesh in this world.

I apologize for getting frustrated at your avoidance. It is not my intent to offend. I removed the references to Premillers.

I would like you to address my 4 points above.

 

[rwb]

I apologize for getting frustrated at your avoidance. It is not my intent to offend. I removed the references to Premillers.

I would like you to address my 4 points above.

I appreciate and accept your apology, but no, I will not continue in this discussion.

 

[Davidpt]

Gen 1
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely (unconditionally) eat [the fruit] from every tree of the garden; 17 but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat, otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die [because of your disobedience].”


How did Adam die on the day he ate?

He did not die physically on that day, so it must have been Spiritually. He was unable to access the tree of life until such a time as he was born again of the Spirit AND born again Physically.

You are not thinking outside of the box here.

For example. Someone gets into an horrific car accident, hangs on to life in the hospital for a few months but never fully recovers and dies from the injuries sustained from the accident. Thus, in this case, in the day they were involved in that accident, they shall surely die. Not on the day, in the day. Meaning the day of the accident led to their eventual demise. Genesis 2-3 does not say 'on' the day, it says 'in' the day. This analogy I just used, assuming it's valid, required no one to experience spiritual death because they did not die the same day of this accident. Yet they did die because of the accident.

 

[rwb]

Gen 1
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely (unconditionally) eat [the fruit] from every tree of the garden; 17 but [only] from the tree of the knowledge (recognition) of good and evil you shall not eat, otherwise on the day that you eat from it, you shall most certainly die [because of your disobedience].”


How did Adam die on the day he ate?

He did not die physically on that day, so it must have been Spiritually. He was unable to access the tree of life until such a time as he was born again of the Spirit AND born again Physically.

Adam did not spiritually die on the day that they disobeyed God. On that day mankind became destined to death because the Spirit that breathed life into them departed from them, just as Scripture shows He sometimes did before Pentecost. They became natural man now with the same nature as the serpent that beguiled them. During the day/age/time in which Adam lived, he died just as God said they would.

Genesis 5:5 (KJV) And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

It is for this reason that man must partake of the tree of life through Christ, to be born again with eternal life through the Spirit of Christ.