Commerce or Faith

[Wrangler]

nowhere are we told to celebrate anyone’s birthday.

This reveals an enslaved mindset. Nowhere are we told to use the internet, but here we are. And more to the point, here YOU are.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Freedom is being able to do anything that is not prohibited; freedom is NOT only doing what you are told to do.

 

[Wrangler]

The thing that makes it even sadder @Nancy, is that it doesn’t honor Christ at all

Huh? I hear nothing but "the reason for the season" and songs to that effect + see all kinds of nativity scenes.

More important than this is the universal good will people express to one another at this time of year. This honors Christ in the highest.

One can argue, theoretically, that we should treat each other like this all the time. The practical reason this is not done is REALITY; people tend to get tunnel vision, focus on the day to day needs. We only Sabbath once per week, generally. This is the entire reason for special Sabbaths! Jesus died during Passover week, which is a birthday, an annual remembrance.

Just last night I had dinner with my brother-in-law and his wife. Seems we only get together the week before Christmas to celebrate his birthday. We talked about the passage of time and how difficult general living gets as we age. When we left, he and his wife embraced me and my wife. The day is coming when we will never do that again. One of us, then all of us will pass. In the meantime, the occasion gives us cause to honor Christ by spending the only thing we really have - time in this life - with each other, wishing each other well, loving on each other. YMMV.

 

[Pearl]

The truth is, it seems to me, that those refuse to take joy or pleasure in the coming into our world of Immanuel, God with us, lead pretty joyless lives if they can't see that this event is a cause of 'great joy' as the angels told the shepherds. Who else has had angels celebrating their birth - only Jesus.

Luke 2:9-11​

An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Saviour has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This reveals an enslaved mindset.

So the “enslaved” are accusing the ones who have chosen not to be “part of the world” and it’s annual ‘greed fest’, modelled after a pagan festival, that they are enslaved....? Seriously...?

Nowhere are we told to use the internet, but here we are. And more to the point, here YOU are.

LOL....The Internet is a communication enabler.....last time I looked communication was not forbidden by God....in fact it was encouraged as the means of preaching the gospel as Jesus commanded.
Isn’t that why we are here?

For a smart guy, your logic is very skewed at times. Justification is embodied in all your excuses.....you think God is fooled? Go back and just read the Scripture I have shared.....it’s all there plain as day.....”none so blind”....

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Freedom is being able to do anything that is not prohibited; freedom is NOT only doing what you are told to do.

We don’t have the “freedom” to use false worship to honor a God who hates it.

Go back to the garden of Eden and see your reasoning in what the devil told the woman....did she have the freedom to eat that fruit when God had told them not to, under penalty of death?

What did exercising her “freedom” of choice result in for the human race?

There are always consequences for disobedience...but it appears that some cannot be told.....

Remember the words of the prophet Jeremiah...

“The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” (Jer 17:9-10 NLT)

The heart is where justifications come from....can we trust it?

Don’t wait till Jesus is the one delivering a verdict you may not be expecting. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I hear nothing but "the reason for the season" and songs to that effect + see all kinds of nativity scenes.

“The reason for the season” does not exist.....since no one knows the date of Christ’s birth.....wouldn’t it be recorded if God wanted us to observe it?

As for the “nativity scenes”....

Can you tell me what is wrong with this picture?

You do realize that the “wise men” (magi) were never at the stable. They came much later when Jesus was a “young child” living in a “house” with his parents. (Matt 2:11)

The more you learn about what the Bible actually says, the more you realize that the magi were not there to worship a god, but to honor a king. They were astrologers from Babylon, and the “star” that supposedly guided them, did not take them to Jesus, but to a wicked king, who then put in place the planned murder of this child....resulting in the deaths of all the boys 2 years of age and under. Would God be responsible for that?

The star that guided these men was not any ordinary star, but one that moved in the sky and guided them directly to Jesus, but only after alerting Herod of his birth, and his position as future “king of the Jews”. (Matt 2:1-12)

Herod wasn’t having any but his own progeny on the throne. And God warning the magi to return home by another route shows that these had no evil intent, but were used as dupes for the devil’s plot to have Jesus killed before he could even grow up.

People see in the account only what they want to see.....

 

[Wrangler]

LOL....The Internet is a communication enabler

Rationalization. Christmas is a festive enabler.

 

[Wrangler]

Can you tell me what is wrong with this picture?

You do realize that the “wise men” (magi) were never at the stable. They came much later when Jesus was a “young child” living in a “house” with his parents. (Matt 2:11)

Nothing is wrong with the picture. It may not be historically accurate but it’s called ARTISTIC LICENSE.

Point is, everyone except JW knows the nativity portrays the birth of our Lord.

 

[Wrangler]

nowhere are we told to celebrate anyone’s birthday.

Nowhere are we told to use the internet, but here we are.

last time I looked communication was not forbidden by God

For a smart guy, your logic is very skewed at times.

Projecting your lack of logic.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Wrangler...you will never be able to plead ignorance.....you don’t have to justify yourself to me....

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler...you will never be able to plead ignorance.....you don’t have to justify yourself to me....

I’m not pleading ignorance! I’m pleading Liberty, for that is the spirit of God is.

 

[Pearl]

You do realize that the “wise men” (magi) were never at the stable. They came much later when Jesus was a “young child” living in a “house” with his parents. (Matt 2:11)

Of course we do and that there may not have been three magi. But whatever the picky details the reason to celebrate remains the same God came to earth as a baby. Ah but there's a snag; You don't believe Jesus was God. You don't believe Jesus is Immanuel - God with us. I think you religion believes hw was a prophet. Well there was a heck of to do about the birth of yet another prophet; A virgin conceiving and giving birth, Magi following a star, angels appearing in great numbers to Shepherds, bringing tidings of great joy to all mankind., King Herod worried enough to want the baby dead. And these events mean nothing to you? This was obviously a big deal in the heavenly realms. What are your thoughts when you read about these events in you bible?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Of course we do and that there may not have been three magi. But whatever the picky details the reason to celebrate remains the same God came to earth as a baby. Ah but there's a snag; You don't believe Jesus was God. You don't believe Jesus is Immanuel - God with us. I think you religion believes hw was a prophet. Well there was a heck of to do about the birth of yet another prophet; A virgin conceiving and giving birth, Magi following a star, angels appearing in great numbers to Shepherds, bringing tidings of great joy to all mankind., King Herod worried enough to want the baby dead. And these events mean nothing to you? This was obviously a big deal in the heavenly realms. What are your thoughts when you read about these events in you bible?

Well I’m sure you didn’t mean to, but thank you for the opportunity to explain what we believe because there is a lot or error in your assumptions there.....it’s nothing unusual, we get that a lot...people attribute beliefs to us on hear-say rather than what is actually true. All they have to do is ask us.....we have nothing to hide.

Just because we don’t join the world in celebrating what we know is an over commercialized secular/religious occasion that originally had nothing to do with Jesus’s birth, (and in many nations still leaves religion out of it in favour of the food, gifts, alcohol, decorated trees and houses, and of course lying to children about Santa Claus.) but that doesn’t mean that we ignore the circumstances of his birth......what we know is that the “Christmas” story is a complete distortion of the reality, and grafted over a pagan festival that has changed little from the original.

You have already admitted to knowing that the details are incorrect as if it doesn’t matter. (Luke 16:10)

God went to a lot of trouble to bring his son into the world in the manner that he had foretold, because satan was always going to oppose him...he did so first by corrupting Israel’s worship.
When Jesus arrived, although he fulfilled every Scripture written about him....the majority of his own people rejected him....on what? Hear-say...not a good way to establish the truth about anything.

Even though we do not believe that Jesus is God incarnate, we do believe in his divinity, as we have evidence for that, but no evidence in the Bible for his deity. If there was, there could be no basis for disagreement about this issue but it’s been raging for centuries. An established biblical fact cannot be disputed.

We do believe that Jesus is “Immanuel”, because “God with us” is not exactly confirmation that Jesus is God...only that God would be “with” his his people by means of his “logos”....the one appointed to speak for him...his “mediator”. (1 Tim 2:5)

The Bible says that Jesus was the “prophet like Moses” who was foretold to be the mediator of the new covenant, as Moses was the mediator of the old covenant. (Deut 18:18; Acts 3:22; John 5:46)

So, as well as being the divine “son of God”, he was also to carry out the same kind of role as Moses, who prophesied and led God’s people through the wilderness and made sure that God’s Worship was pure...the way it was described at Mount Sinai....the Ten Commandments provided all the principals embodying the entire Law.
Christ gave a us a new law based on just two Commandments.....to “love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves”....all that Jesus taught hinged on those two commands.

So our beliefs are not as bad as they’re made out to be....we may not join you in your celebrations but we have beliefs that are strictly biblical....nothing we believe comes from outside of Scripture....nothing we believe comes from an apostate religious system which today is so hopelessly fragmented and disunited that if Jesus returned tomorrow to judge the world, he wouldn’t be able to tell “the church” from “the world”.

What do you think it means to be “no part of the world”? (John 17:16; John 18:36)
How does God feel about adopting pagan practices and calling them “Christian”? (2 Cor 6:14-18)
The readers can see for themselves.....

 

[Pearl]

Well I’m sure you didn’t mean to, but thank you for the opportunity to explain what we believe because there is a lot or error in your assumptions there.....it’s nothing unusual, we get that a lot...people attribute beliefs to us on hear-say rather than what is actually true. All they have to do is ask us.....we have nothing to hide.

Thanks again @Aunty Jane for your reply but what I have learned about the JWs - Watchtower Organization - have been told me by other JWs namely my cousin and other members doing street service. And I do agree with you that it is over commercialised; that's the gist of this thread.

What do you feel in your heart when you read the accounts of the birth of Jesus in your bible?

What do you think it means to be “no part of the world”? (John 17:16; John 18:36)
How does God feel about adopting pagan practices and calling them “Christian”? (2 Cor 6:14-18)
The readers can see for themselves.....

Being in the world but not of it is what Jesus talked about and as a Christian I belong to God's Kingdom not the kingdom of the world. And I have not adopted pagan practices unless it's pagan to pray, praise, be joyful and enjoy turkey and chocolate.
John 17:14-16
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

And by the way, it's been good having this chat with you as it's given me a fresh understanding of this wonderful event, seeing it with fresh eyes and an open heart has blessed me so much. So yes, thank you. And may you too be blessed by our chat as you meditate on the Saviour.

 

[Nancy]

“The reason for the season” does not exist.....since no one knows the date of Christ’s birth.....wouldn’t it be recorded if God wanted us to observe it?

As for the “nativity scenes”....

Can you tell me what is wrong with this picture?

You do realize that the “wise men” (magi) were never at the stable. They came much later when Jesus was a “young child” living in a “house” with his parents. (Matt 2:11)

The more you learn about what the Bible actually says, the more you realize that the magi were not there to worship a god, but to honor a king. They were astrologers from Babylon, and the “star” that supposedly guided them, did not take them to Jesus, but to a wicked king, who then put in place the planned murder of this child....resulting in the deaths of all the boys 2 years of age and under. Would God be responsible for that?

The star that guided these men was not any ordinary star, but one that moved in the sky and guided them directly to Jesus, but only after alerting Herod of his birth, and his position as future “king of the Jews”. (Matt 2:1-12)

Herod wasn’t having any but his own progeny on the throne. And God warning the magi to return home by another route shows that these had no evil intent, but were used as dupes for the devil’s plot to have Jesus killed before he could even grow up.

People see in the account only what they want to see.....

"The more you learn about what the Bible actually says, the more you realize that the magi were not there to worship a god, but to honor a king."

Hello @Aunty Jane
I must take issue with the above statement. The Magi did travel hundreds of miles to worship Jesus, not just honor Him.

Matthew 2:2​

“Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”I“And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”​

Matthew 2:11
“And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

 

[Wrangler]

“The reason for the season” does not exist.....since no one knows the date of Christ’s birth

There you go again! WHEN we celebrate. WHAT we celebrate. Not the same thing.

The expression “The reason for the season” does not refer to the astronomical season of winter. It refers to when we celebrate Christ's birth. I think you know this and are just rationalizing.

 

[Pearl]

THE REAL CHRISTMAS ALPHABET *

C - is for the Christ-child who was laid amongst the hay.
H - is for the Holiness that came to earth that day.
R - is for the Royal crown that he was born to wear.
I - is for Immanuel, which means that God is near.
S - is for the Shepherds who were the first to bow.
T - is for the Truth who is living in us now.
M -is for his Meekness and also his Majesty.
A - is his Amazing love and his Authority.
S - is for his Spirit who remains with us on earth;
​

So let’s honour our king,
As our praises we sing

To celebrate his birth.​

By me (This can be sung to the ‘Christmas Alphabet’ tune - if you’re feeling festive )

 

[amigo de christo]

Celebrating the coming to earth of God in human form is so much more that celebrating a birthday. It is celebrating the greatest event of all time. An event that was foretold in the Old Testament, a miraculous and unique event where a virgin gave birth to the Son of God. How can we not be in awe of that and find it a cause for celebration.

What a lovely reminder .
Now lets hear another reminder .
BUT we cannot HONOR this with PAGAN things . for pagan things DO NOT HONOR HE
who came to earth . IT DISHONORS HIM . and that WE surely do not want to do .
I am all for remembering HIS birth . But when we do , lets not bring the pagan into it
as we celebrate it . OR HONOR HIM WE DO NOT , WE DISHONOR HIM . And again
that we do not want any part of at all .

 

[Pearl]

The Christmas Gift *

As they deck their halls with holly
And put up their Christmas tree
As they eat and drink till jolly
How many will remember me?

As they carve the big roast turkey
And fill their glasses once again
As they pull their gaudy crackers
How many know about my pain?

As they sing their old-time carols
And gulp another brandy down;
As they sing about the manger
How many see my thorny crown?

As they open gift-wrapped presents
And organize a party game;
As they pig-out on the chocolates
How many know just why I came?

As you enjoy this festive season
And presents to your loved ones give;
As you light your Christmas candles
Know I died that you might live.


By me Dec 2005

 

[amigo de christo]

Nothing is wrong with the picture. It may not be historically accurate but it’s called ARTISTIC LICENSE.

Point is, everyone except JW knows the nativity portrays the birth of our Lord.

Not only that my friend . But when THE WORD
became written as a word
BLASPHEMY had been DONE .
But the nim called rod , nash changed things claiming inspiration of God
He foregot to remove things even in their own bible .
When a man comes hollering GOD has revealed the greek to me
BUT that greek starts twisting and omitting what was already written
THAT one be a liar . Better we all watch out
cause i darn sure have seen what they are doing
NOW to the bible by means of what they call KOINE greek .
THEY BEEN DOING IT too my friend . Wise scholars , wise this or that , claims of inspiration by GOD .
And yet all they do is t wist what was originally written , IN certain places
that oppose their own agendas . THEY FLEECING US ALL my friend . Just a friendly reminder .

 

[Pearl]

CHRISTMAS COLOURS

The colours of Christmas,
Red, white, green and gold;
Each has a meaning
Where Christ’s story is told.

The gold is his royalty,
He’s the king of all kings;
Born in a stable,
Salvation he brings.

The white is his purity;
God’s own perfect pure light,
Which shines in the darkness
Abolishing night.

The red is his blood
Which was shed on that tree
To cleanse us from sin
And set us all free.

The evergreen branches
So fragrant and green
Mean life everlasting
For those who are clean.

Our God in heaven
Came down from above
And lived as a man,
For such is his love.

So be quiet this Christmas,
Make room in your heart,
Allow Jesus to enter
For that shining new start.


By me