Ignoring any foreknowledge, do you claim GOD purposely, in advance, chooses who goes to hell.
eg eeny meeny miney mo, off to hell you go ?
If so, list the verses please.
Is it possible to lose salvation?
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eg eeny meeny miney mo, off to hell you go ?
If so, list the verses please.
- Dec 31, 2010
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Why I don't mind OSAS...
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7
If they think they are eternally saved they most probably are! Salvation comes by faith. Now... I am no fan of eternal security... But I do believe it has its advantages and say very little in return. OSAS people do not struggle with their salvation as they think and believe they are saved. I do not have a problem with that. There are clouds of doubt that can inhibit salvation and a quality walk with the Lord.
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he... - Proverbs 23:7
If they think they are eternally saved they most probably are! Salvation comes by faith. Now... I am no fan of eternal security... But I do believe it has its advantages and say very little in return. OSAS people do not struggle with their salvation as they think and believe they are saved. I do not have a problem with that. There are clouds of doubt that can inhibit salvation and a quality walk with the Lord.
Where does Paul teach a Body-of-Christ Saint can become UNsaved ?
BTW Gal 5:4 - fall from grace is not addressed to Body-of-Christ Saints it's to those who try to be justified by the law
**
The Church (the Body of Christ) - doctrine.org
Introduction What is the Church? When did it begin? The answer to the second question depends upon the answer to the first. Seven key passages in the New Testament describe the Church. They are the following: Ephesians 1.22-23; 2.11-22; 3.3-9;…
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May I ask you a question please? Should we utilize all these scriptures in our understanding?
Ephesians 2:8-9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God, 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Hebrews 5:9
New International Version
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
Matthew 28:20
New King James Version
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Luke 8:21
New International Version
He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Matthew 7:24
International Standard Version
"Therefore, everyone who listens to these messages of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on a rock.
Matthew 24:13
New King James Version
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
Christian Standard Bible
You will be hated by everyone because of my name, but the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Hebrews 10:36
Berean Literal Bible
For you have need of endurance, so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.
Philippians 2:12
New King James Version
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
James 1:25
Berean Standard Bible
But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so—not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer—he will be blessed in what he does.
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Absolutely when you can find the verses that you believe teach any other Apostle besides Paul (Rom to Philemon) has the Christ given authority to teach you Salvation, ps, I'd like to see those verses too :)
The Apostle Paul has full Authority - Why do you harp on this point when I already explained he has authority?
Has Jesus talked with you and giving you authority?
If you accept that Paul has FULL AUTHORITY, why do you refer to Matt, Mark, Hebrews etc since they DO NOT HAVE the authority of Paul to teach salvation to you & I ?The Apostle Paul has full Authority - Why do you harp on this point when I already explained he has authority?
Has Jesus talked with you and giving you authority?
Quoting Jesus words in Matthew and Mark is Paramount, in full Authority!
So you feel some of the scriptures in the New Testament are useless, not valuable?
Christ has authority over all
To teach Salvation to believers today, he gives that authority to Paul, not Matthew, John, James, Peter etc.
If part of Scripture does not apply to you why are you relying on it ?
Paul said that those who say the words of Jesus don't apply know NOTHING:
1 Ti 6:3-4 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
What does Acts 9:15, Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 teach about Paul ?
I agree with you.
1 Timothy 6:3-4
New International Version
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
Galatians 1:8-9
Contemporary English Version
I pray that God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from our message to you! It doesn't matter if that person is one of us or an angel from heaven. 9 I have said it before, and I will say it again. I hope God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from what you have already believed.
Galatians 1:8-9
New King James Version
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2 John 1:9-11
Berean Literal Bible
Anyone going on ahead, and not abiding in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. The one abiding in the teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into the house, and do not tell him to rejoice. 11 For the one telling him to rejoice partakes in his evil works.
John 14:6
New King James Version
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 4:21
New King James Version
if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
John 1:17
New International Version
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 17:17
New International Version
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
John 15:3
Berean Standard Bible
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Luke 8:21
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But he answered and said to them, “These are my mother and my brothers; those who are hearing the word of God and are practicing it.”
Matthew 7:24
New Living Translation
“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
John 13:17
English Standard Version
If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
Luke 9:35
New Heart English Bible
A voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him."
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Would you say the Question and AI Overview, makes sense to you?
How do we know if 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to every scripture in the New Testament, because didn't some scriptures come after 2 Timothy 3:16?
AI Overview
You're right to notice that some New Testament books came after 2 Timothy, which is a key point in understanding if 2 Timothy 3:16 ("All Scripture is God-breathed...") applies to the whole NT; theologians debate this, with some arguing Paul meant only the Old Testament (which Timothy knew), while others suggest Paul's statement anticipated future inspired writings, pointing to later NT books like Peter calling Paul's letters "scripture," showing a broader concept of divine writing was forming, even if the canon wasn't finalized.
Arguments for a Broader Application (including the NT)
- Early Christian Practice: Even by the time Paul wrote, early Christians began treating apostolic writings (like Paul's letters) as authoritative, as seen in 2 Peter 3:15-16, which refers to Paul's letters as "scripture".
- Prophetic Sense: Some believe Paul's statement wasn't just about the past but about the nature of all truly divine writing, a principle that would extend to future inspired NT books.
- The Term "Scripture" (Graphe): While often referring to the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures), early writers, including Paul, also used graphe for emerging Christian writings, showing a developing understanding.
- Historical Context: When 2 Timothy was written (around 60 AD), the New Testament canon wasn't established; the "Scripture" Timothy knew from youth was the Old Testament.
- Immediate Context: Verses 14-15 mention Timothy learning from "sacred writings" (OT) from childhood, suggesting verse 16 builds on that.
- Paul was affirming the divine inspiration of existing sacred writings (the OT) and establishing a standard for what constitutes inspired Scripture.
- Later NT authors, recognizing this standard and their own apostolic authority, applied the same term ("Scripture") to their writings, effectively extending the principle Paul stated.
- So, while Paul probably didn't list the future NT books, his principle of "God-breathed" Scripture was understood and applied to them as they were written and recognized, making 2 Timothy 3:16 relevant to the entire Bible.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
The Words of the Lord Jesus are paramount to those of us to whom they were given. Sadly, they are foolishness to those think they can interpret them and understand them according to their own wisdom.I just like to read Jesus words, like he is standing right next to me, I know this sounds a little silly, but I think Jesus words are Paramount.
All I have is related scriptures to the subject, and I believe the scriptures are relevant to what we are talking about. Sorry you don't see it that way.
I do not understand why you are so hostile?
Didn't the Apostles talk to all kinds of people? Talking about the Bible is not Fellowship, otherwise why would the apostles have done it?
I am very sorry you have to take everything in such a negative way. / I do not feel a debate on the Bible subjects is a negative thing.
Sorry to speak incorrectly if I did..Thanks for the conversation, I extend you, peace and joy and may you find more happiness each day, sorry for being disagreeable, I don't like debates.
I like to explain why I believe something with scriptures and look at the scriptures someone else has that supports what they believe.
That's all,
Here's why I can't have fellowship with you, (Christian fellowship is when Christians agree with each other). We haven't found any common ground to agree on any doctrine so far.
Here's what the bible says about people reading the Words of the Lord Jesus.
Matthew 11:25-27
"At that time Jesus declared, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will'.
"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day'" (Romans 11:7-8).
These verses highlight God's sovereign choice in bestowing the knowledge of salvation, independent of worldly wisdom or human intellect. So you reading the Words of the Lord Jesus doesn't mean that you understand what He actually said.
These and many other verses confirm God's sovereignty in salvation (the doctrine of election and reprobation).
The interpretation is that God, for His own purpose and glory, chooses to reveal saving truth to some (the elect) while actively withholding that insight from others (the non-elect), which results in their being "hardened" in their unbelief.
Humans in their natural, fallen state are unable and unwilling to seek God or respond to the Gospel on their own (Romans 3:10-11).
Salvation is entirely dependent on God's will and His gracious revelation through the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; Ephesians 2:8-10).
The hiding of truth serves God's eternal purposes, which include demonstrating His justice in judging sin and His mercy in saving those He has chosen.
See God hides the truth from those He did not chose to save before He created the world. How do you suppose the non elect can ever find the truth if God is deliberately hiding it from them??????
There is only one true gospel, so I'm not interested in alternative views and opinions, as they always lead to confusion and delusion.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
The ten commandments are not part of the new covenant, you're trying to mix the old and new and it just doesn't work at all.
The Lord Jesus never said "if you love me keep the commandments". You just made that trash up, in a vain attempt to support you "saved by works" version of the gospel.
The Lord Jesus never preached your works based (keeping the commandments) version of the gospel. You will never find a single verse supporting this fundamentally flawed theory.
The Lord Jesus didn't come to save those who keep the commandments (the righteous), no He came to save sinners like me who can't stop sinning and breaking the commandments, until we drop dead.
I agree with the second part of your post, where you confirm what John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, (Not only the Jews) that He gave His only begotten Son that (whoever not only the Jews) believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life",.
Yes the Israel of God (His Elect) is the Church, we are made up of Jews and Gentiles, from all over the world. This doesn't mean every single person in the world, as you have been indoctrinated to believe by your denomination.
Where does the Bible say that? Could you highlight the words in the scriptures that explain what you just said?
I already explained to you we are not having Fellowship!
Why bother reading the Bible in the first place? You could say that to anyone who reads the Bible.. Those words would apply to you then?
You could take your own advice.
Is it really necessary for you to write paragraphs?
Is it possible that we could:
#1. Express what we believe.
#2. List all the scriptures that support the belief we have.
#3. Drop all the paragraphs of explaining, and let the Bible explain things by itself, not with your assistance or mine! *** Please Drop.
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You're asking for verses where PAUL states that there are conditions to our salvation
or
That salvation can be forfeited?
Here they are since Jesus is not good enough for you rvmb:
I'm not posting Hebrews although it was most probably written by a student of Paul.
Romans 11:20-22
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you
continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Timothy 3:5-7
5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
2 Corinthians 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,
1 Corinthians 9:27
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Colossians 1:22-23
22 He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,
Paul is teaching that our salvation can be forfeited:
WE ARE TO CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS OR BE CUT OFF. ROMANS 11
SOME WILL FALL AWAY BY DECEITFUL SPIRITS 1 TIMOTHY 4
SOME WILL BE LED ASTRAY 2 TIMOTHY 3
SOME CAN BE LED ASTRAY 2 COR 11
WE MUST HOLD FAST THE WORD 1 COR 15
WE MUST DISCIPLINE OURSELVES OR BE DISQUALIFIED 1 COR 9
WE MUST CONTINUE IN THE FAITH COL 1
Here are the conditions Paul has set forth:
CONTINUE TO THE END
DO NOT FALL AWAY
DO NOT BE LED ASTRAY
DISCIPLINE OURSELVES
Because scripture does not confirm what the other member believes.
So we have OPINION and insults instead.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
In my theology, Sinners are Sinners and Saints are Saints. You obviously don't know the difference.
You lied to me again, saying your bible says He came to save every single person. But the verse you listed don't even include women or children, how pathetic.
I'll give anyone my house and possessions if they find a single shred of evidence to support your crazy theory.
Hi CS.....
You're making the same promise to @Rightglory that you made to me!
How many houses and cars do you have anyway??
I'm still waiting for you to send me the house and cars you promised me!
Sure hope Rightglory doesn't fall for your scam.
Let me put this mildly, since you sure have insulted me enough times:
You're a joke.
And you give no glory to God.
You're the type of Christian that makes others run from Christianity.
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