Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[David in NJ]

You directly avoided the question asked and went into a ramble "Why"?

Please Choose one

1. Do the unsaved wicked enter a millennial kingdom at the Lords return?

Or

2. Are the unsaved wicked destroyed at the Lord's revealing (Destroyed Them All)?

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

If you avoid believing every word that God has Spoken , for your Good and Blessing!
How then are you able to understand His Prophecy concerning His Return and all that HE will Do???

i believe Luke 17:29-30 and 2 Thess chapter 1 and Revelation, His Prophecy to the 7 churches and John 6:35-40 and Rev chapters 19 & 20 and ALL of Scripture, including Zechariah and Genesis.

By not knowing all that God has Spoken and then you take a small portion of Scripture that you use for your own understanding, will only create divisions in the Body of Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I mainly want to focus on this portion---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

A) a time before the millennium begins

B) a time during the millennium

C) a time after the millennium ends

During which of these, A), B) and C), can we assume they are martyred because they did none of these things at the time?

Does it make sense they can be martyred during A) for refusing to do this? Yes.


What about during C)? No.

That leaves B). What about during B) then? No. And here are some reasons why.

In order to be martyred for the reasons they are, it involves everything in Revelation 13 having been fulfilled. Except how could anything in Revelation 13 involve the millennium when both Premil and Amil have satan in the pit during the millennium, and that Amil also has the beast in the pit during the millennium?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Does this sound like the beast is still in the pit at this point? Until the beast rises up out of the sea, where is it logically located in the meantime if not in the pit? And why can't 'sea' here simply be code for the bottomless pit? Compare Revelation 13:1 with Revelation 17:3, 8.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy


Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend (anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



In my opinion, the 10 crowns upon the 10 horns that are all on the head that was wounded and is healed, can be explained per the following. After all, do not crowns and kings go together.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view? Revelation, plus passages elsewhere outside of Revelation, reveal that it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, in order for Amil to be a valid position, the 42 month reign of the beast must occur during satan's little season. But how can it when Revelation 20:4 already reveals that the 42 month reign of thebeast precede satan's little season?

One thing I'm certain of is that we need to look at this with fresh eyes with the help of the Lord. It can be very hard to get thoughts/strongholds out of our head once they have been planted and embedded. As for me, I'm considering this trail of clues: first of all remembering that these things were prophesied to ISRAEL in the book of Daniel........and consider whether Rev 20:4 happened in the first century. Jesus told the apostles (the early church was comprised of Israelites and they were believing Israel) they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, as Daniel had prophesied the saints would possess the kingdom and judgment given to them......and John was told point blank he was being shown things that would shortly come to pass. Jesus also had said concerning John that "if I will that he tarry til I come, what is that to you?" And the early church explicitly said they were living in the last time, the time of the end. It certainly was the last days concerning ISRAEL and the first covenant and the things prophesied to HER concerning her. And Paul had written wolves would come in not sparing the flock after he departed, which was some time before 70AD....so it's not a stretch to think there might have been a falling away within the fledgling Jewish ISRAELITE church before 70AD. Not to mention a falling away of ISRAEL proper and her corrupt priesthood riding the beast of Rome.

However, Solomon wrote that what has been will be again......and Paul wrote in Rom 2 that there would be tribulation and anguish upon every soul who does evil, of the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. Not all prophetic words are "one and done"...there can be overlapping layers, or woofs and waffles in the weave of one prophetic word, as the Lord is speaking in spirit. So I believe there is that SOME of these things will apply to the mostly Gentile church in the end of this age. And what happened to Israel in the first century is an "ensample" or pattern of what will happen concerning the church, since it is written that things happened unto Israel as ensamples to us.

I believe there are lots of clues adding up here.

 

[David in NJ]

And the early church explicitly said they were living in the last time, the time of the end. It certainly was the last days concerning ISRAEL and the first covenant and the things prophesied to HER concerning her. And Paul had written wolves would come in not sparing the flock after he departed, which was some time before 70AD....so it's not a stretch to think there might have been a falling away within the fledgling Jewish ISRAELITE church before 70AD. Not to mention a falling away of ISRAEL proper and her corrupt priesthood riding the beast of Rome.

Keep reading and Above all BELIEVING every word Spoken by God =One Thing for CERTAIN

Example: The Gospel is to the Jew first AND also to the Gentile = Only ONE Gospel

The moment a person/theologian(lol) separates Jew from Gentile in the Gospel = all HELL breaks loose!!!

Some, if not many, of the things prophesied of Israel also pertain to the ISRAEL of GOD = His People

Theologian ERROR = Daniel chapter 12 is written to the Jew/Israel of the flesh

The WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE Says: "There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

The HOLY SPIRIT Says: "I will Call them MY People who were Not MY people" = Gentiles in CHRIST are Daniel's People
Only Daniel's People = those in CHRIST = have their names written in the Book of Life

Believe JESUS Lizbeth =
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I say to you,
the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Who is the Nation that was Given the Kingdom of GOD AFTER the Jews/Israel rejected the Kingdom of GOD???

 

[Lizbeth]

Keep reading and Above all BELIEVING every word Spoken by God

Example: The Gospel is to the Jew first AND also to the Gentile = Only ONE Gospel

The moment a person/theologian(lol) separates Jew from Gentile in the Gospel = all HELL breaks loose!!!

Some, if not many, of the things prophesied of Israel also pertain to the ISRAEL of GOD = His People

Theologian ERROR = Daniel chapter 12 is written to the Jew/Israel of the flesh

The WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE Says: "There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

The HOLY SPIRIT Says: "I will Call them MY People who were Not MY people" = Gentiles in CHRIST are Daniel's People
Only Daniel's People = those in CHRIST = have their names written in the Book of Life

Believe JESUS Lizbeth =
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
“Therefore I say to you,
the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Who is the Nation that was Given the Kingdom of GOD AFTER the Jews/Israel rejected the Kingdom of GOD???

Yes, I agree, brother, I do believe God's word and I'm not trying to raise again the wall of separation that was torn down - we Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God. But nevertheless the old covenant and things to do with it had not been given to the Gentiles. God was speaking and prophesying to the Jew FIRST, and that is not my word but God's. And "unto THEM were committed the oracles of God" originally, although those same oracles certainly have things to say and teach the church now of course. It was an age and a covenant that the Lord finally wrapped up in 70AD, which the early Jewish church was there for, heavily persecuted and involved with, and the Lord made an escape for them. He had given the nation of Israel space to repent after His ascension, but then finally had to lower the boom and finish it, and make it all about the new covenant after that. 70 AD was the judgment of Mystery Babylon as manifested at that time. But Satan is going to be "loosed" again for a brief time.

Mat 23:29-36

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:

Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy

Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.



But there is nothing new under the sun brother….think we are going to see a repeat of that pattern. But it was fulfilled FIRST in the first century to that generation just as Jesus prophesied.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you avoid believing every word that God has Spoken , for your Good and Blessing!
How then are you able to understand His Prophecy concerning His Return and all that HE will Do???

i believe Luke 17:29-30 and 2 Thess chapter 1 and Revelation, His Prophecy to the 7 churches and John 6:35-40 and Rev chapters 19 & 20 and ALL of Scripture, including Zechariah and Genesis.

By not knowing all that God has Spoken and then you take a small portion of Scripture that you use for your own understanding, will only create divisions in the Body of Christ.

You avoided the direct questions again, it appears that you have no interest in biblical debate

 

[David in NJ]

You avoided the direct questions again, it appears that you have no interest in biblical debate

It appears that you only want to argue against "It is written"

That makes you susceptible to the spirit of error!!!

But as for me = i will serve the LORD and feast His Living Words = All of Them = "for MY flesh and blood is Life indeed"

 

[David in NJ]

It was an age and a covenant that the Lord finally wrapped up in 70AD, which the early Jewish church was there for and involved with, and the Lord made an escape for them. He had given the nation of Israel space to repent after His ascension, but then finally had to lower the boom and finish it, and make it all about the new covenant after that. 70 AD was the judgment of Mystery Babylon as manifested at that time. But Satan is going to be "loosed" again for a brief time.

Ah, i love you my Sister in CHRIST = can't wait to see you in our Glorified Bodies = Amen

i also SEE what you are saying and you are assuming that Satan is currently locked up, now/Today.

But that is a Scriptural IMPOSSIBILITY = from God's Mouth to our ears!!! =

Gospel , Acts , Apostles writings and Revelation all condemn the error of = "satan's little season is now/Today"

JESUS always brings us/His People back to Genesis and the OT Prophets so that we may Know for Certain.

Thus why JESUS teaches us this Truth: "It is Written"

It is written: Daniel 12:1-3 "everyone whose name is written in the Book(of Life)"

It is written John 6:35-40 "ALL that the Father gives ME I will Raise UP on the Last Day" & "rejoice that your names are written in Heaven"

Can you SEE this = how this TRUTH of Daniel ch12 Directly Correlates to JESUS words of the Resurrection at His Second Coming???

My Joy and calling in the Holy Spirit is to help the Body of Christ SEE "It is written"

Shalom

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I agree, brother, I do believe God's word and I'm not trying to raise again the wall of separation that was torn down - we Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God. But nevertheless the old covenant and things to do with it had not been given to the Gentiles. God was speaking and prophesying to the Jew FIRST, and that is not my word but God's. And "unto THEM were committed the oracles of God" originally, although those same oracles certainly have things to say and teach the church now of course. It was an age and a covenant that the Lord finally wrapped up in 70AD, which the early Jewish church was there for, heavily persecuted and involved with, and the Lord made an escape for them. He had given the nation of Israel space to repent after His ascension, but then finally had to lower the boom and finish it, and make it all about the new covenant after that. 70 AD was the judgment of Mystery Babylon as manifested at that time. But Satan is going to be "loosed" again for a brief time.

Mat 23:29-36

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:

Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy

Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.



But there is nothing new under the sun brother….think we are going to see a repeat of that pattern. But it was fulfilled FIRST in the first century to that generation just as Jesus prophesied.

Please report post 428

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I agree, brother, I do believe God's word and I'm not trying to raise again the wall of separation that was torn down - we Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God. But nevertheless the old covenant and things to do with it had not been given to the Gentiles. God was speaking and prophesying to the Jew FIRST, and that is not my word but God's. And "unto THEM were committed the oracles of God" originally, although those same oracles certainly have things to say and teach the church now of course. It was an age and a covenant that the Lord finally wrapped up in 70AD, which the early Jewish church was there for, heavily persecuted and involved with, and the Lord made an escape for them. He had given the nation of Israel space to repent after His ascension, but then finally had to lower the boom and finish it, and make it all about the new covenant after that. 70 AD was the judgment of Mystery Babylon as manifested at that time. But Satan is going to be "loosed" again for a brief time.

Mat 23:29-36

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:

Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy

Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.



But there is nothing new under the sun brother….think we are going to see a repeat of that pattern. But it was fulfilled FIRST in the first century to that generation just as Jesus prophesied.

AWESOME = "I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:"

"It is Written"

Ongoing/Current = Rev 16:6

Ongoing/Current = Rev 17:6

Ongoing/Current = Rev 18:4

Future = Rev 19:2

Ongoing/Current and up to His Second Coming = Rev chapters 2 thru 3 = the Letters to the 7 Churches

Ongoing/Current up to His Second Coming = Rev 6:9-17

Ongoing/Current up to His Second Coming = Rev 19:1-21

Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ”
And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Ongoing/Current up to His Second Coming = Rev 22:12-21

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Truth7t7]

But it was fulfilled FIRST in the first century to that generation just as Jesus prophesied.

Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 70AD fulfillment is built upon a false premise

Did the first generation in 70AD actually witness the events seen in Matthew chapter 24 "No"

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD is future, this will start the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, tribulation that will surpass World War II that claimed 70 Million lives

Has the sun and moon turned black, stars falling from heaven, men's hearts failing them for fear of the Lord's second coming "No"

It will be a "Future" generation "This Generation" that will be eyewitnesses of the signs and actual second coming of Jesus in the heavens

P.S. the book of Revelation was written by John the Apostle in 96AD while he was in prison on the Island of Patmos under the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD, with 70AD having no part in its fulfillment

 

[Davidpt]

Yes, I agree, brother, I do believe God's word and I'm not trying to raise again the wall of separation that was torn down - we Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God. But nevertheless the old covenant and things to do with it had not been given to the Gentiles. God was speaking and prophesying to the Jew FIRST, and that is not my word but God's. And "unto THEM were committed the oracles of God" originally, although those same oracles certainly have things to say and teach the church now of course. It was an age and a covenant that the Lord finally wrapped up in 70AD, which the early Jewish church was there for, heavily persecuted and involved with, and the Lord made an escape for them. He had given the nation of Israel space to repent after His ascension, but then finally had to lower the boom and finish it, and make it all about the new covenant after that. 70 AD was the judgment of Mystery Babylon as manifested at that time. But Satan is going to be "loosed" again for a brief time.

Mat 23:29-36

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:

Rev 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy

Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.



But there is nothing new under the sun brother….think we are going to see a repeat of that pattern. But it was fulfilled FIRST in the first century to that generation just as Jesus prophesied.

In another post you said this--"I believe there are lots of clues adding up here". Now apply that to the following.


IMO, it matters where Jesus said what He said in the Discourse before He said what else He said in the Discourse later.

For example. He said the following first.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Then He said the following later.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


In verse 32 He clearly said 'all' not 'some'. Which then obviously, thus undeniably means---This generation shall not pass away = until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

It's been almost 2000 years since 70 AD. There are only Jews and Gentiles. What times have we been in for the past 2k years? The times of the Jews or the times of the Gentiles? No one being intellectually honest is going to answer the times of the Jews. Therefore, it is absurd that this generation Christ was referring to in Luke 21:32 already passed away almost 2K years ago when the following wasn't even fulfilled yet, and still hasn't been fulfilled yet, as we speak--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Only a doctrinally bias person could argue--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled--is not included with this part--till all be fulfilled. Or, only someone who has lost all contact with the real world(reality) could argue that we have not still been in the times of the Gentiles for the past 2K years. Therefore, the times and the seasons of the Gentiles were already fulfilled almost 2K years ago. Which then contradicts that for the past 2K years through now, Gentiles have been dominating the world. Jews certainly haven't been. Therefore, the past 2K years = the times of the Gentiles haven't been fulfilled yet. Thus = this generation shall not pass away, till ALL is fulfilled = this generation did not already pass away. Which then = lots of clues adding up here.

 

[David in NJ]

In another post you said this--"I believe there are lots of clues adding up here". Now apply that to the following.


IMO, it matters where Jesus said what He said in the Discourse before He said what else He said in the Discourse later.

For example. He said the following first.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Then He said the following later.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


In verse 32 He clearly said 'all' not 'some'. Which then obviously, thus undeniably means---This generation shall not pass away = until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

It's been almost 2000 years since 70 AD. There are only Jews and Gentiles. What times have we been in for the past 2k years? The times of the Jews or the times of the Gentiles? No one being intellectually honest is going to answer the times of the Jews. Therefore, it is absurd that this generation Christ was referring to in Luke 21:32 already passed away almost 2K years ago when the following wasn't even fulfilled yet, and still hasn't been fulfilled yet, as we speak--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Only a doctrinally bias person could argue--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled--is not included with this part--till all be fulfilled. Or, only someone who has lost all contact with the real world(reality) could argue that we have not still been in the times of the Gentiles for the past 2K years. Therefore, the times and the seasons of the Gentiles were already fulfilled almost 2K years ago. Which then contradicts that for the past 2K years through now, Gentiles have been dominating the world. Jews certainly haven't been. Therefore, the past 2K years = the times of the Gentiles haven't been fulfilled yet. Thus = this generation shall not pass away, till ALL is fulfilled = this generation did not already pass away. Which then = lots of clues adding up here.

@Lizbeth = we love you Sis and do not want you deceived by "satans' little season is now/Today"

Ongoing/Current up to His Second Coming = Rev 22:12-21

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

JESUS has not yet Returned, and you and i and EVERYONE has not yet received according to our work(s).

Dear Sister @Lizbeth = do not give yourself to false teachings of men = Eph 4:14 , 2 Timothy 4:3

 

[Truth7t7]

AWESOME = "I'll leave it with you to compare the above passage with these in Revelation:"

"It is Written"

Ongoing/Current = Rev 16:6

Revelation 16 in the vial judgements are "Future" and will take place when (The Beast) takes his seat in Jerusalem

Revelation 16:1-2KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Ongoing/Current = Rev 17:6

Ongoing/Current = Rev 18:4

Revelation chapters 17-18 describes Jerusalem Mystery Babylon the great and its "Future" revealing and punishment

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation 16 in the vial judgements are "Future" and will take place when (The Beast) takes his seat in Jerusalem

Revelation 16:1-2KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation chapters 17-18 describes Jerusalem Mystery Babylon the great and its "Future" revealing and punishment

YES, what i meant by "ongoing/current" is this: the sins of this world and the Beast System is ongoing/current and the Judgment is Future

Thank You for sharing/posting Rev 16:1-2


@Lizbeth

 

[quietthinker]

One thing I'm certain of is that we need to look at this with fresh eyes with the help of the Lord.

'Fresh eyes' is the word.
Old wine skins will be destroyed with new wine. I think what its saying here is, old wine skins (thoughts/ strongholds/ paradigms) cannot/ will not contain new wine (new teaching/ paradigms)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All who are in Christ are my Brothers and Sisters = we love each other even when we disagree and at times things can get hot.
Christ always calls us back to Himself together as we are members of His Body.

GOD wants everyone to AGREE as well = "we cannot have our cake and eat it too" ​

CHRIST Says to us - here now - TODAY:
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

@Spiritual Israelite and @Marty fox - GOD never lies and HE is never double minded

You're not answering the questions you are being asked by Truth7t7 and by me. Are they too difficult? Do you believe that all of the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns? Yes or no?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 19 promises this.

Where?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you avoid believing every word that God has Spoken , for your Good and Blessing!
How then are you able to understand His Prophecy concerning His Return and all that HE will Do???

i believe Luke 17:29-30 and 2 Thess chapter 1 and Revelation, His Prophecy to the 7 churches and John 6:35-40 and Rev chapters 19 & 20 and ALL of Scripture, including Zechariah and Genesis.

By not knowing all that God has Spoken and then you take a small portion of Scripture that you use for your own understanding, will only create divisions in the Body of Christ.

What do you think was Jesus's point when He said in Luke 17:26-30 that the flood "destroyed them all" the day that Noah entered the ark and that the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" the day Lot went out of Sodom and followed that up by saying "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed."? To me, it's clear He was saying that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns just as was the case in the flood in Noah's day and in Sodom in Lot's day.

 

[covenantee]

Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 70AD fulfillment is built upon a false premise

Did the first generation in 70AD actually witness the events seen in Matthew chapter 24 "No"

Your eisegeses are built on futurized fantasies.

The disciples actually witnessed false christs and deceivers.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4,5).
Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).
Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (21:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later. Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time. This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were many of such in those days.

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet.

These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were a great number, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[Lizbeth]

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Then He said the following later.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

It depends on what exactly He was applying his words to in v. 32. Because v. 24 was all fulfilled in 70 AD before that generation passed away....they did fall by the sword and were led away captive and Jerusalem was destroyed and began to be trodden of the Gentiles from that time onward.