WATER BAPTISM CAUSES DIVISIONS

[Ronald Nolette]

In regards to the law, water purified sin...........[Numbers 19:9 KJV] "And a man [that is] clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay [them] up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it [is] a purification for sin."

In regards to no command to be baptized.........[Mark 16:16 KJV] "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The Mosaic Law had no command for baptism. You should know that. And then you have Jesus telling the Apostles to go and teach all nations. but not yet- according to you that command is for the millennial kingdom. WOW!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul baptized many?...............[1 Corinthians 1:14 KJV] "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;"
[1 Corinthians 1:16 KJV] "And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other."

Why would Paul talk so much about baptisms if it wasnt part of their problem?

Many is a relative term.

Acts 16

King James Version

​

16 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

OOPS! the Apostles ordained baptism!

28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Was the Philippian jailer baptiozed to appease teh jews? NOT!!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He didnt tell them it would be in the future, the kingdom was at hand, but rejected. If Jesus was received as their Messiah and the Son of God and they believed the gospel of the kingdom Matthew 28 would have been fulfilled. They rejected it so I say it wont be fulfilled til the kingdom is established.

YOu say, but Gods Word says differently! If Jesus meant Baptism for the millennial kingdom- He would have spoken in the future tense- He didn't, you fail.

Matthew 28 was teh command to lay the foundation of the church! The church started In Jerusalem and spread to all the world!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you are referring to this..................[Romans 6:3 KJV] "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?".........this isnt water baptism, its Spirit baptism

Paul differentiates the spirit baptism from the baptism in Jesus. Just like here:

Acts 19

King James Version

​

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

TRhey were water baptized then Baptized in the Spirit. You fail again against the Word of God.

 

[Doug]

Many is a relative term.

Acts 16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

16 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

OOPS! the Apostles ordained baptism!

28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Was the Philippian jailer baptiozed to appease teh jews? NOT!!!!

Following belief water baptism followed, make of it as you wish

 

[Doug]

YOu say, but Gods Word says differently! If Jesus meant Baptism for the millennial kingdom- He would have spoken in the future tense- He didn't, you fail.

Matthew 28 was teh command to lay the foundation of the church! The church started In Jerusalem and spread to all the world!

In regard to me failing, let me say this isnt a test, nor a debate with winners or losers. I am only presenting what I have learned from scripture. I dont say I alone am right. Anyone can reject what I say, I am only putting it out there for consideration. Evaluate what I say by scriptures.

 

[Doug]

Paul differentiates the spirit baptism from the baptism in Jesus. Just like here:

Acts 19​

​

King James Version​

​

​

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

TRhey were water baptized then Baptized in the Spirit. You fail again against the Word of God.

I think we cant explain everything, I cant. This is a distinct case here. Acts is a transitional period, which requires caution in forming doctrine. You do bring salient points to consider.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus commanded the disciples to teach and baptize the nations NOT us

So who makes up NATIONS?
Is it not people?

Did Jesus instruct the Apostles to go to ALL nations...
or only to those that practiced JUDAISM?

Jesus gives us his commands thru Paul............[1 Corinthians 14:37 KJV] "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

ALL the Apostles and writers of the NT taught the commandments of the Lord.
Not just Paul.

Jesus doesn't need Paul to spread His message....
Jesus was teaching the Apostles for YEARS before Paul.

Please show me where Paul taught baptism

Please show me where Jesus commanded us to be water baptized

Silly questions Doug.
Your premise that we need to follow ONLY Paul is silly enough.
This is not turning into a baptism thread.

If you don't see water baptism THOUGHOUT the NT,,,
then that's how it'll have to be.

I do wonder what religion you are...but no matter.

Matthew 28 doesnt say it applies to the millennial kingdom. The disciples didnt go to all nations and in fact decided not to go to the Gentiles...............[Galatians 2:9 KJV] "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."..........they didnt fulfill what was commanded them and I think it will be fulfilled in the future.

You THINK something will be fulfilled in the future.
We're not supposed to THINK and read into scripture, but accept what is clearly written.

The Apostles went ALL OVER to teach...
you're confining your beliefs to very particular scriptures and you are not taking all of scripture and history to learn about how Christianity spread.

The most logical assumption is for the Gentile nations that they will teach and baptize to be in the millennial kingdom since they didnt go to the nations in their earthly ministry. They will be resurrected in the kingdom and fulfill Matthew 28. You dont have to give this any credence. If you think Matthew 28 is for you can I respectfully ask what nations have you taught and baptized?

We're not supposed to ASSUME Doug.
We are not supposed to add or detract from scripture.

And history clearly shows that all Apostles went everywhere.
A GENTILE is ANYONE that is not JEWISH.

They all travelled to non-Jewish nations.

We have our great commission here..............
[2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV] "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
[2 Corinthians 5:20 KJV] "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

We're called to witness.
Agreed.

Are you saying Jesus and Paul taught the same thing?
Jesus came to Israel. He preached the gospel of the kingdom, that the millennial earthly kingdom was at hand. Paul didnt preach this gospel, he preached that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification.
Jesus taught Israel about the kingdom, Paul didnt

Yes.
I'm saying that Jesus and Paul taught the same.

Do you believe that Jesus taught THE APOSTLES one set of directions.
and then thought OOOPS, I FORGOT SOME STUFF
and so went to Paul?

If Jesus taught one thing
and Paul taught something different
WHO should we be obeying according to you?

Paul had to convince the Apostles that he received a word from Jesus.
The Apostles did not have to convince anyone....they were there with the Lord for years.

Jesus has only ONE teaching.

Jesus fulfilled the law and taught it...................
[Matthew 19:17 KJV] "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

So are you now saying we are NOT to keep the commandments?

When Jesus sent the Apostles out....He told them to teach what HE had taught them.
WHAT do you think Jesus taugt?

Could you actually LIST the differences between jesus and Paul?

[Matthew 19:18 KJV] "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,"

If we love him I can adhere to some of his commandments such as.....................[Matthew 7:12 KJV] "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.".......I dont obey commandments not given to me such as Matthew 28:19

It's wonderful to hear that you don't adhere to all of the commandments.

So, again, what religion are you?

Are you creating your very own religion or are there others that agree with you in a church somewhere that I've never heard of.

Paul restates all of the ten commandments except the Sabbath

I'm confused.
Didn't you just say that you DO NOT obey the commandments?

Are you saying that Matthew 28:19 is a commandment??

There are 10 commandments....
I don't read them in Matthew 28:19

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Following belief water baptism followed, make of it as you wish

That is what I have been saying all along- you have been disagreeing.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In regard to me failing, let me say this isnt a test, nor a debate with winners or losers. I am only presenting what I have learned from scripture. I dont say I alone am right. Anyone can reject what I say, I am only putting it out there for consideration. Evaluate what I say by scriptures.

I did and you have failed in rightly dividing the Word. That is what this is about.

When you come up with these "hypotheses" of the Scriptures, you should present themto your pastor/teacher who is a gift ministry God has given you for your maturing.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think we cant explain everything, I cant. This is a distinct case here. Acts is a transitional period, which requires caution in forming doctrine. You do bring salient points to consider.

It is not I but the Scriptures themselves. I am not bringing doctrine based on Acts. I know that Acts is the transitional historic book. But Actd can show the application of doctrine which it does amply.

 

[Doug]

So who makes up NATIONS?
Is it not people?

Did Jesus instruct the Apostles to go to ALL nations...
or only to those that practiced JUDAISM?


ALL the Apostles and writers of the NT taught the commandments of the Lord.
Not just Paul.

Jesus doesn't need Paul to spread His message....
Jesus was teaching the Apostles for YEARS before Paul.

Silly questions Doug.
Your premise that we need to follow ONLY Paul is silly enough.
This is not turning into a baptism thread.

If you don't see water baptism THOUGHOUT the NT,,,
then that's how it'll have to be.

I do wonder what religion you are...but no matter.

You THINK something will be fulfilled in the future.
We're not supposed to THINK and read into scripture, but accept what is clearly written.

The Apostles went ALL OVER to teach...
you're confining your beliefs to very particular scriptures and you are not taking all of scripture and history to learn about how Christianity spread.


View attachment 76187

We're not supposed to ASSUME Doug.
We are not supposed to add or detract from scripture.

And history clearly shows that all Apostles went everywhere.
A GENTILE is ANYONE that is not JEWISH.

They all travelled to non-Jewish nations.

We're called to witness.
Agreed.


Yes.
I'm saying that Jesus and Paul taught the same.

Do you believe that Jesus taught THE APOSTLES one set of directions.
and then thought OOOPS, I FORGOT SOME STUFF
and so went to Paul?

If Jesus taught one thing
and Paul taught something different
WHO should we be obeying according to you?

Paul had to convince the Apostles that he received a word from Jesus.
The Apostles did not have to convince anyone....they were there with the Lord for years.

Jesus has only ONE teaching.

So are you now saying we are NOT to keep the commandments?

When Jesus sent the Apostles out....He told them to teach what HE had taught them.
WHAT do you think Jesus taugt?

Could you actually LIST the differences between jesus and Paul?

It's wonderful to hear that you don't adhere to all of the commandments.

So, again, what religion are you?

Are you creating your very own religion or are there others that agree with you in a church somewhere that I've never heard of.

I'm confused.
Didn't you just say that you DO NOT obey the commandments?

Are you saying that Matthew 28:19 is a commandment??

There are 10 commandments....
I don't read them in Matthew 28:19

So who makes up NATIONS?
Is it not people?

[Numbers 23:9 KJV] "For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations."..............The nations are people groups outside of the nation of Israel
Jesus came to save his people Israel.............[Matthew 1:21 KJV] "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
There will be Gentiles saved out of the nations to enter the earthly millennial kingdom...............[Matthew 25:32 KJV] "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:".

ALL the Apostles and writers of the NT taught the commandments of the Lord.
Not just Paul.

The law and the prophets gave the commandments of the Lord for Israel. The law is a covenant made only with Israel..................[Exodus 19:5 KJV] "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:"
Paul relayed the commandments the Lord gave us the church the body of Christ in this dispensation.

Jesus doesn't need Paul to spread His message....
Jesus was teaching the Apostles for YEARS before Paul.

Jesus thru Paul gave revelations not made known to the twelve apostles, Here are two.............[Galatians 3:28 KJV] "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] "And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:"

Your premise that we need to follow ONLY Paul is silly enough.

If we follow Paul that is how we follow Christ in this dispensation. .............[1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV] "Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ."

If you don't see water baptism THOUGHOUT the NT,,,
then that's how it'll have to be.

Of course water baptisms were commanded Israel, but Paul doesnt command us to be water baptized

I do wonder what religion you are...but no matter.

I am a Bible believer. The churches I follow are grace churches/mid acts dispensational
Mid acts say that the church the body of Christ wasnt formed until Paul was converted around Acts 9

The Apostles went ALL OVER to teach...
you're confining your beliefs to very particular scriptures and you are not taking all of scripture and history to learn about how Christianity spread.

I am not going into detail but a lot of these travels to the nations by the apostles isnt in scripture and there is a lot of debate about them being historical. Alot is church tradition.
For example Peter going to Rome and Matthew in Ethiopia cant be verified

We're not supposed to ASSUME Doug.
We are not supposed to add or detract from scripture.

I am not adding to scripture by giving my understanding of it. God set teachers in the church who expound the Word. Assumptions can be made based on comparing scripture to scripture.
Here is an example.....................[1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV] "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."..............here is the gospel................
[1 Corinthians 15:1 KJV] "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"
[1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV] "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
[1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV] "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,By comparing these two verses we can assume the gospel doesnt contain water baptism for salvation even though its not plainly stated

And history clearly shows that all Apostles went everywhere.
A GENTILE is ANYONE that is not JEWISH.

already answered sorry

And history clearly shows that all Apostles went everywhere.
A GENTILE is ANYONE that is not JEWISH.

They all travelled to non-Jewish nations.

already answered sorry

Do you believe that Jesus taught THE APOSTLES one set of directions.
and then thought OOOPS, I FORGOT SOME STUFF
and so went to Paul?

Jesus gave the apostles different instructions at different times. For example.................[Matthew 10:5 KJV] "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:"............go not to the Gentiles.................[Mark 16:15 KJV] "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."..............then go to the Gentiles

Jesus certainly didnt forget anything. He revealed mysteries thru Paul not made known in the prophets or to the twelve.

If Jesus taught one thing
and Paul taught something different
WHO should we be obeying according to you?

Paul is our apostle and we are to follow him. Jesus is reconciling heaven by the the body of Christ. Paul has the commandments from Christ we are to obey.

Paul had to convince the Apostles that he received a word from Jesus.
The Apostles did not have to convince anyone....they were there with the Lord for years.

Paul went to the apostles and told them his gospel, but they added nothing to him and the apostle recognized his apostleship
All the apostles were giving signs to show the people they were sent from God
Just being with Christ upheld their preaching, Judas was with him from the beginning

 

[Doug]

So who makes up NATIONS?
Is it not people?

Did Jesus instruct the Apostles to go to ALL nations...
or only to those that practiced JUDAISM?


ALL the Apostles and writers of the NT taught the commandments of the Lord.
Not just Paul.

Jesus doesn't need Paul to spread His message....
Jesus was teaching the Apostles for YEARS before Paul.

Silly questions Doug.
Your premise that we need to follow ONLY Paul is silly enough.
This is not turning into a baptism thread.

If you don't see water baptism THOUGHOUT the NT,,,
then that's how it'll have to be.

I do wonder what religion you are...but no matter.

You THINK something will be fulfilled in the future.
We're not supposed to THINK and read into scripture, but accept what is clearly written.

The Apostles went ALL OVER to teach...
you're confining your beliefs to very particular scriptures and you are not taking all of scripture and history to learn about how Christianity spread.


View attachment 76187

We're not supposed to ASSUME Doug.
We are not supposed to add or detract from scripture.

And history clearly shows that all Apostles went everywhere.
A GENTILE is ANYONE that is not JEWISH.

They all travelled to non-Jewish nations.

We're called to witness.
Agreed.


Yes.
I'm saying that Jesus and Paul taught the same.

Do you believe that Jesus taught THE APOSTLES one set of directions.
and then thought OOOPS, I FORGOT SOME STUFF
and so went to Paul?

If Jesus taught one thing
and Paul taught something different
WHO should we be obeying according to you?

Paul had to convince the Apostles that he received a word from Jesus.
The Apostles did not have to convince anyone....they were there with the Lord for years.

Jesus has only ONE teaching.

So are you now saying we are NOT to keep the commandments?

When Jesus sent the Apostles out....He told them to teach what HE had taught them.
WHAT do you think Jesus taugt?

Could you actually LIST the differences between jesus and Paul?

It's wonderful to hear that you don't adhere to all of the commandments.

So, again, what religion are you?

Are you creating your very own religion or are there others that agree with you in a church somewhere that I've never heard of.

I'm confused.
Didn't you just say that you DO NOT obey the commandments?

Are you saying that Matthew 28:19 is a commandment??

There are 10 commandments....
I don't read them in Matthew 28:19

So are you now saying we are NOT to keep the commandments?

The commandments were given to Israel not Gentiles. Gentiles were given a conscience.

When Jesus sent the Apostles out....He told them to teach what HE had taught them.
WHAT do you think Jesus taugt?

To keep the ten commandments and the law

Could you actually LIST the differences between jesus and Paul?

Briefly I will
Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom was at hand. the prophetic millennial kingdom on earth
Paul preached the gospel of Christ not the kingdom

Jesus preached the law...............
[Matthew 5:18 KJV] "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
[Matthew 5:19 KJV] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Paul preached we arent under the law...........[Romans 6:15 KJV] "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

It's wonderful to hear that you don't adhere to all of the commandments.

Paul restated all ten except the sabbath

Are you creating your very own religion or are there others that agree with you in a church somewhere that I've never heard of.

There are grace mid Acts dispensational churches.
Here is one...........................https://graceambassadors.com/

Grace Ambassadors

Grace Ambassadors provides Biblical answers to denominational confusion, church-hype, and empty religious tradition. Find more free resources including thousands of articles and lessons on our website: www.graceambassadors.com

www.youtube.com

I'm confused.
Didn't you just say that you DO NOT obey the commandments?

I obey the commandments Jesus gave us the church the body of Christ

Are you saying that Matthew 28:19 is a commandment??

There are 10 commandments....
I don't read them in Matthew 28:19

Its not just the ten commandments
If Jesus told them do do something it is a commandment.................[Matthew 10:5 KJV] "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:"

 

[Doug]

That is what I have been saying all along- you have been disagreeing.

Israel had to believe then be water baptized NOT US in this dispensation

 

[Doug]

I did and you have failed in rightly dividing the Word. That is what this is about.

When you come up with these "hypotheses" of the Scriptures, you should present themto your pastor/teacher who is a gift ministry God has given you for your maturing.

These arent just my ideas. I cant physically attend church. Here is one of the churches I follow............https://graceambassadors.com/

Grace Ambassadors

Grace Ambassadors provides Biblical answers to denominational confusion, church-hype, and empty religious tradition. Find more free resources including thousands of articles and lessons on our website: www.graceambassadors.com

www.youtube.com

 

[GodsGrace]

[Numbers 23:9 KJV] "For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations."..............The nations are people groups outside of the nation of Israel

So to understand this your way:
You said: THE NATIONS ARE PEOPLE GROUPS OUTSIDE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL.

So...
When Jesus gave the Great Commission to go and make dicsiples of ALL THE NATIONS,
by your very own statement, this means those OUTSIDE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL.


So Jesus told the Apostles to preach and teach to ALL THE NATIONS outside of Israel.

Jesus came to save his people Israel.............[Matthew 1:21 KJV] "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
There will be Gentiles saved out of the nations to enter the earthly millennial kingdom...............[Matthew 25:32 KJV] "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:".

No Doug.
The teaching and preaching was for THAT TIME....not a future time.
Unless you could find the verse that clearly states this.

As to Matthew 1:21
21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."


This was written in the gospel so as to show that Isaiah 7.14 was fulfilled.
7:14
14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.


And how do you reconcile Matthew 1:21 with this:

Romans 10:13
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Paul is also referring back to Isaiah...why would he write this in the NEW Testament?
Did Paul preach ONLY the OT??

Jesus came to His own because God revealed Himself THROUGH ISRAEL at a time when nations were worshipping idols. Abraham was called out of UR for this reason.

Paul goes on to say that

Romans 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

There is NO DISTINCTION for ALL who call on Him.
No Jew,
No Greek.

The law and the prophets gave the commandments of the Lord for Israel. The law is a covenant made only with Israel..................[Exodus 19:5 KJV] "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:"
Paul relayed the commandments the Lord gave us the church the body of Christ in this dispensation.

I agree that God gave His commandments through Isreael.
We all know that God revealed Himself through Israel...
through the Hebrews,
through His people that He had chosen for this specific task.

Isn't it obvious that nations all around the globe follow the moral values of the 10 commandments?
Perhaps because God's teaching were spread throughout, just as He wished?

Jesus thru Paul gave revelations not made known to the twelve apostles, Here are two.............[Galatians 3:28 KJV] "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

But it seems that you do not believe this.

Let's see what Jesus taught regarding this:


John 3:14-17
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.



So what is THE WORLD?
Who are the WHOSOEVERS?

If JESUS did not mean for His teachings to be for everyone....
and we need Paul to clarify this...
we can just dismiss all of the red writing in the NT since it is not intended for all believers.

[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] "And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:"

If we follow Paul that is how we follow Christ in this dispensation. .............[1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV] "Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ."

PAUL said we have one advocate/mediator...JESUS.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Paul is not our mediator.
He is an example, an intercessor - just as we all are.


part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2

Of course water baptisms were commanded Israel, but Paul doesnt command us to be water baptized

I'm not going to depend on verses,,,although I will supply one....

What I'd rather ask you is this:
If Paul does not say to do something...
and Jesus says to do something...

WHO TAKES PRECEDENCE?


Here is Paul telling us to be baptized - because Paul taught what Jesus tuaght:

Romans 6:1-5
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,


Paul is teaching that THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST are those who have died to sin...

I am a Bible believer. The churches I follow are grace churches/mid acts dispensational
Mid acts say that the church the body of Christ wasnt formed until Paul was converted around Acts 9

This is an incorrect teaching and goes against everything the NT teaches.
Just like calvinism, the teachings of the CC....
denominations that teach something different...something UNORTHODOX...are separating the Body of Christ...
causing false theology which creates many conflcts within scripturel and are falling away from the faith and teaching a different gospel.

I won't posst about the teaching of a different gospel...we all know it...
it states that those that do this are cursed.

I am not going into detail but a lot of these travels to the nations by the apostles isnt in scripture and there is a lot of debate about them being historical. Alot is church tradition.
For example Peter going to Rome and Matthew in Ethiopia cant be verified

Doug, history did not end with ACTS.
Because Acts does NOT mention that Peter was in Rome does not mean that he was not.
Chuch history teaches that Peter was a Bishop in Rome and that other Bishops went to him when there were questions about doctrine. You'd have to study some church history to know this and it would help all Christians to know church history.

I am not adding to scripture by giving my understanding of it. God set teachers in the church who expound the Word. Assumptions can be made based on comparing scripture to scripture.

You are ADDING to scripture.
You are placing OPINION into your theology.
I've asked you to show exactly where Jesus speaks of the millinium in Matthew 28:19 and you're unable to post it because it DOES NOT exist.

THIS is adding to scripture...not explaining it.
All churches explain it.

Here is an example.....................[1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV] "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."..............here is the gospel................
[1 Corinthians 15:1 KJV] "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"
[1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV] "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
[1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV] "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,By comparing these two verses we can assume the gospel doesnt contain water baptism for salvation even though its not plainly stated

Paul's PRIMARY task was to preach..NOT to baptize. This is correct.
However, we cannot say that he didn't TEACH baptism.

This is a rather interesting point but I won't get into it here.
(seems only the Apostles baptized).

already answered sorry

already answered sorry

Jesus gave the apostles different instructions at different times. For example.................[Matthew 10:5 KJV] "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:"............go not to the Gentiles.................[Mark 16:15 KJV] "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."..............then go to the Gentiles

Matthew 10.
The Apostles went within Israel.
To only the Jews.
Perhaps it was because of what Jesus states in Matthew 9:37-38

The harvest was plentiful but the workers were few.
Jesus was attracting a lot of interested persons, multitudes...some became disciples.
He needed help WITHIN ISRAEL...
He sent out the 12 to preach within Israel.

Matthew 9:35-38
35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without * a shepherd.
37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
38 "Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest."


In Matthew 10:1 Jesus sends out the 12.

Jesus certainly didnt forget anything. He revealed mysteries thru Paul not made known in the prophets or to the twelve.

Paul is our apostle and we are to follow him. Jesus is reconciling heaven by the the body of Christ. Paul has the commandments from Christ we are to obey.

We are to listen to JESUS Doug.
No one else or we will be led astray.

Jesus spoke plainly and clearly...no mysteries.

Paul went to the apostles and told them his gospel, but they added nothing to him and the apostle recognized his apostleship
All the apostles were giving signs to show the people they were sent from God
Just being with Christ upheld their preaching, Judas was with him from the beginning

Right!
Because he was teaching what they were teaching.
My point exactly.

 

[GodsGrace]

The commandments were given to Israel not Gentiles. Gentiles were given a conscience.

You're quoting Romans 2.
It's for those that do not have scripture.
We do.

But since there is only ONE CHURCH, and one Body of Christ....
The 10 Commandments are for everyone.

Jesus taught the commandments and He stated:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


If you love me, keep my commandments.

IF we love Jesus we will keep His commandments.
EVERYONE that loves Jesus will keep His commandments.

His Great Two Commandments cover all the rest...
and He mentioned specific ones too.

Murder
Adultery
Theft
Honoring parents
False Witness

To keep the ten commandments and the law

Yes. To keep the 10 commandmensts.
Jesus taught this.

But you say Jesus taught to keep the Law?

Then why did He not have the adulterous woman stones?
The Law taught that she should have been stoned.

Why did He eat grain on the Sabbath?
This was also forbidden (harvesting).

Briefly I will
Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom was at hand. the prophetic millennial kingdom on earth
Paul preached the gospel of Christ not the kingdom

Yes sir. Jesus preached that the Kingdom was at hand.
THEN
Not in some future time.

Jesus said the KINGDOM IS WITHIN YOU/IN YOUR MIDST....

Luke 17:21
21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Within us Doug...
In our midst.......not in some distant future.
It is within us...within our community...


Jesus also said we cannot see the Kingdom unless we are born again:

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born again he cannot * see the kingdom of God."


If we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God...
and YOU think the Kingdom is in the future...

Does this mean there are no born again persons?
Do we have to wait for some future dispensation to become born again?

Jesus preached the law...............
[Matthew 5:18 KJV] "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Yes sir.
All was fulfilled at the cross.

This is a MAJOR teaching of Christianity.

Bad theology, bad outcome.

[Matthew 5:19 KJV] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Yes sir.
Jesus taught that we are to follow the commandments.

Paul preached we arent under the law...........[Romans 6:15 KJV] "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

We are NOT under THE LAW.
We are under grace.

You're conflating the Law with the Commandments.

Paul restated all ten except the sabbath

Which means??
Maybe that we are to keep the Commandments?

So do we keep them or not?
Are they part of the Law or not?

Your statements seem conflicting..maybe I'm just reading them wrongly.

There are grace mid Acts dispensational churches.
Here is one...........................https://graceambassadors.com/

Grace Ambassadors

Grace Ambassadors provides Biblical answers to denominational confusion, church-hype, and empty religious tradition. Find more free resources including thousands of articles and lessons on our website: www.graceambassadors.com

www.youtube.com

I obey the commandments Jesus gave us the church the body of Christ

Its not just the ten commandments
If Jesus told them do do something it is a commandment.................[Matthew 10:5 KJV] "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:"

I agree.
I've often stated that God does not make requests.
Anything God states IS A COMMAND.

I do wish you'd listen to orthodox Christian teachers on YouTube.
But it's your choice.

You could believe what the church has always taught...
or you could believe a new fandangled teaching that is outside of orthodoxy.

Many will all away due to teachings of demons.... Paul taught this.

Try listening to Mike Winger, Frank Turek, John Lennox,,,,
so many that teach mainline Christianity.
Try it.

 

[Doug]

So to understand this your way:
You said: THE NATIONS ARE PEOPLE GROUPS OUTSIDE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL.

So...
When Jesus gave the Great Commission to go and make dicsiples of ALL THE NATIONS,
by your very own statement, this means those OUTSIDE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL.


So Jesus told the Apostles to preach and teach to ALL THE NATIONS outside of Israel.

No Doug.
The teaching and preaching was for THAT TIME....not a future time.
Unless you could find the verse that clearly states this.

As to Matthew 1:21
21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."


This was written in the gospel so as to show that Isaiah 7.14 was fulfilled.
7:14
14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.


And how do you reconcile Matthew 1:21 with this:

Romans 10:13
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Paul is also referring back to Isaiah...why would he write this in the NEW Testament?
Did Paul preach ONLY the OT??

Jesus came to His own because God revealed Himself THROUGH ISRAEL at a time when nations were worshipping idols. Abraham was called out of UR for this reason.

Paul goes on to say that

Romans 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

There is NO DISTINCTION for ALL who call on Him.
No Jew,
No Greek.


I agree that God gave His commandments through Isreael.
We all know that God revealed Himself through Israel...
through the Hebrews,
through His people that He had chosen for this specific task.

Isn't it obvious that nations all around the globe follow the moral values of the 10 commandments?
Perhaps because God's teaching were spread throughout, just as He wished?


But it seems that you do not believe this.

Let's see what Jesus taught regarding this:


John 3:14-17
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.



So what is THE WORLD?
Who are the WHOSOEVERS?

If JESUS did not mean for His teachings to be for everyone....
and we need Paul to clarify this...
we can just dismiss all of the red writing in the NT since it is not intended for all believers.



PAUL said we have one advocate/mediator...JESUS.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Paul is not our mediator.
He is an example, an intercessor - just as we all are.


part 1 of 2

I will answer after Christmas
Merry Christmas

 

[GodsGrace]

I will answer after Christmas
Merry Christmas

Same to you Doug!