What begins the great tribulation ? And What ends the great tribulation ?
"what shall be the sign of thy coming"
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Marty, Jesus did not come to earth to execute judgement at the time of the 70 AD attack on Jerusalem by the Romans. Jesus did not partake in the destruction of the temple and city.
Had the Jews accepted Jesus as their King of Israel messiah, the 70 AD attack by the Romans would never had happened, because Jesus would have removed the Roman occupation of the land of Israel..
The great tribulation started the Steven was stoned to death and is still happening today.
Acts 7
The Stoning of Stephen
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the cityand began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
8 And Saul approved of their killing him.
The Church Persecuted and Scattered
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scatteredthroughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.The great tribulation is on the saints by satan not the world the wrath of God is on the world
Revelation 7
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
I didn’t say that Jesus came to the earth to execute judgment He didn’t need to just like with the flood or Sodom and Gomorra, but I posted His own words showing it was from God
Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
What did the land own do to his tenants who killed his son or the king when the people choo not to come to his son’s wedding?
Do you not see that those parables were against Apostate Israel?
Remember what the Jews shouted of Jesus trial
“We have no king but Cesar, let His death be on us and our children“
Marty,
The great tribulation will start when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount.
Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
If you're talking about what Jesus called "great tribulation" and "great distress in the land" in the Olivet Discourse, then what started it was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and then attacking the people in the city while destroying the city itself including its temple buildings around 70 AD.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
What ended this "great tribulation" and "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people" was not any event in particular. It just ended once there wasn't anything left for the Roman armies to destroy or anyone left for them to kill who wasn't taken captive.
What? NNOOooooooo......
In Matthew 24:15-21 is the great tribulation. Jesus, in Matthew 24:15, referred to what Daniel wrote about the abomination of desolation Daniel 12:11-12.
Try again.
What begins the great tribulation? And what ends the great tribulation ?
Merry Christmas Doug.
The actual Hebrew word is `Holy Ones.` And thus we need more scripture on that topic. The Lord Himself said that is was the angels that will come with Him.
`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)
`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)
`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)
`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)
And all through God`s word it is the angels that make up the Lord`s army. eg.
`Then the Commander of the LORD`s army said to Joshua,..` (Joshua 5: 15)
`The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands...` (Ps. 68: 17)
`Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.` (2 Kings 6: 17)
Note in 1 Thess. 2: 19 and 3: 13 it is the souls of those asleep in Christ that come with Him when He comes for His Body. (1 Thess. 4: 14)
Finally, Israel is the bride of Christ.
`For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is His name; and your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, He is called the God of the whole earth. For the LORD has called you like a woman forsaken...`(Isa. 54: 5 & 6)
`I will betroth you to me for ever; yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness and justice, in loving-kindness and mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness and you shall know the LORD.` (Hosea 2: 19 & 20)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
When you disagree with me, that only confirms even more that what I believe is true. You are wrong about everything.
Uh huh. And Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21. What is described there matches what happened in 70 AD in Jerusalem.
Yes, and, just as Jesus prophesied, believers fled to the mountains when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and avoided being killed or taken captive when the armies came in and destroyed the city and its temple buildings while killing many Jews and leading the rest into captivity to all nations.
No, you try again. You need to start from scratch because your current end times beliefs are all wrong.
Matthew 24:15-21 is end times, proved so by the preceding verse of Matthew 24:14.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 is time of the end, not 70AD.
Daniel 12:
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
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Try again.
What begins the great tribulation? And what ends the great tribulation ?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The preceding verse proves nothing. You are proving that you don't understand where Jesus answered the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. His answer to that question is found in Matthew 24:15-21. The parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24 describes things exactly as they happened in 70 AD.
You have the wrong understanding of what "the time of the end" means. The prophecies in Daniel were unsealed during New Testament times. The New Testament shows us what those prophecies mean. The meaning of "the time of the end" is similar to the meaning of "the last days". According to scripture, the last days had begun already long ago. Peter related the things that were happening on the day of Pentecost to the last days (Acts 2:16-21) and he indicated that the last days would continue up until the future second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4). You just assume that "the time of the end" only refers to a short period of time, but you fail to consider that other terms like "the last days" cover the entire time period between the first and second coming of Christ.
No, you try again. You are wrong about almost everything, if not literally everything. You need to try again from scratch.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, they asked him about the sign of his “parousia” (presence) not his “erchomai” (coming)....there is an important difference in the use of these two words, mistranslated like many others.
“Parousia” means “presence”, which naturally includes a person’s arrival.
e.g. If you were at a gathering and you spotted someone you recognised, their presence was observed but their arrival was not. Did they just arrive, or had they been there for some time? That is not obvious.
“Erchomai” means...
“to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):—accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, × light, ×next, pass, resort, be set.” (Strongs)
If you see someone “coming”, it is a visible arrival. Why do we think that two different words are used here?
2 Cor 10:10 highlights the difference....speaking about the Apostle Paul....
“For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence G3952 is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”
And again in Phil 2:12....
“So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence G3952 only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.
His “presence” is contrasted with his absence.
So Jesus “presence” needed visible signs in the world to indicate that he was here, and that the “last days” had begun.
No, Jesus was speaking about the same event......the last days of the Jewish system also pictured the last days of the present world system, about which Daniel wrote. In the time of the last ruing powers pictured by the toes of the image. (Dan 2:44)
It was one prophesy with a dual application....one event picturing another, just as Jesus used “the days of Noah” to picture these critical times in which we find ourselves today. (Matt 24:37-39)
At the time when Jesus spoke those words, the destruction of Jerusalem was still a long way off. Beginning in 66CE when the Roman armies first surrounded Jerusalem, but withdrew for no apparent reason, allowing the Christians to flee to the mountains, but returning in 70CE to finish what they started. Jerusalem and it’s Temple lay in ruins and those who did not obey Jesus warning, regretted not doing so. It was a fitting end to a thoroughly corrupted people, under a religious system that had lost its way centuries ago.
That is a new thought to me, but it does not agree with the rest of Scripture....
It’s not the sign of his “coming” but the sign of his “presence”....go back to the ascension and see what the angels said about Jesus’ return.....
Acts 1:10-11...
“And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stoodbeside them.
They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
Jesus was to return the “same way” as he left.....the world did not know or observe it...only his closest associates were aware of it and witnessed it. Nothing obvious to the world, it was a quiet event....no trumpets, no fanfare.
A careful reading of the Scriptures eliminates mistaken ideas, lost in translation.
This is why original language word studies are so helpful. They iron out the inconsistencies and paint a completely different picture to what is generally held in Christendom, to be true.
Another corrupted religious system is due for destruction, and hence God’s warning to his “people” was the same as Jesus’ warning to his disciples.....
Speaking of a figurative “Babylon”, “greater” than the first in scope, influence and power, that once held God’s people captive, John wrote God’s words....
Rev 18:4-5....
“I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.”
If we have not identified who “Babylon the great” is and removed ourselves from her, we will go down with her. Jesus’ words will be ringing in the ears of many who, even on these boards, justify and promote her false doctrines...
Matt 7:21-23....
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness”
No one wants to hear those words.....but the majority will. (Matt 7:13-14)
No, Matthew 24:14 transitions to the end times, after the gospel of the kingdom had been preached unto all nations.
Matthew 24:15-30 reveals that in the end times the great tribulation will begin when the abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount.
The great tribulation will end when the abomination of desolation of desolation is removed from the temple mount, the day that Jesus returns in Matthew 24:30b.
I provided scripture of the angel telling John when and what the great tribulation is it’s different from the wrath of God
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Or perhaps you do.....what does the evidence show?
Here is where you veer off track. Daniel was told to “seal up” the book of his prophesies until the “time of the end” because nothing in them would make sense until then.....
The prophesy regarding the image in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, is a march of world powers under whom God’s people were subjected. Beginning with Babylon, whom Daniel identified as “the head of gold”, we see then the descending order of the domination of Gods’s people, down to our day.
The Medes and Persians under Cyrus conquered mighty Babylon in one night with hardly a shot fired, and that powerful empire crumbled due to its overconfidence and the strength of the will of God, who under this new king, Cyrus, liberated a remnant of the Jews to return to their homeland when Babylon was notorious for never releasing its captives.
They rebuilt their Temple and inhabited their land, but it was never exclusively theirs again. Foreign rulers subjugated the Jewish people and their land from then on.
The “last days” of the Jewish system were looming in Peter’s day, but according to the Revelation given to John, it was the eviction of Satan and his demons from heaven that also signalled the beginning of the last days.
The “war in heaven” saw Michael and his angels throwing Satan and his hordes down to the earth for their final attempt to test out the human race. (Rev 12:7-12) The devil is “angry” because “he has a short period of time” in which to create havoc on this earth......we are living in those “critical times” right now and we know where this world is headed. This is decision time....are we on God’s side or the devil’s? There are only two sides with no fence to sit on.
According to Daniel’s prophesies, the march of world powers leading up to “the time of the end” are obvious in hindsight.....history identifies them.
Babylon (the head of gold) was overthrown by the Persians (the arms and chest of silver) who were therafter overthrown by the Greeks under Alexander the Great, (the belly and thighs of copper) who after his death, fell to Rome, (represented by the legs of of iron) which was never conquered by outsiders, but fell due to its own decadence. Out of the ashes of Rome emerged Britain also pictured by the feet....but and in “the time of the end” we see the toes partly of iron and partly of clay.....not mixing....partly strong and partly fragile. Britain was formerly a Monarchy, but that was disbanded over time with the kings and queens of England becoming mere figureheads.
This is the Anglo-American dual world power.....who emerged when “the time of the end” began....in a time of war. This democratic alliance saw the elements of power and fragility in the way they were governed under a democratic system of rulership...supposedly “of the people, by the people, and for the people”...but the strength of the government was undermined by the will of the people, who had a say in the way they handled things through democratically elected governors. A system, like all other man-made government, doomed to fail. Only one government was going to save mankind from itself under the devil’s influence. (1 John 5:19) and that was the Kingdom of God....a “government” that was “on the shoulders” of “the Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6)
It is in the days of those final kings when Dan 2:44 is fulfilled.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The evidence shows what I said. I certainly won't ever accept correction from a Jehovah's Witness. You need to come out of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult so that you can discover the truth.
You veered off track as soon as you joined the Jehovah's Witnesses cult. I don't need you to try to tell me I've veered off track when I know that you know nothing.
Sense is made of the Old Testament prophecies, including Daniel's, in the New Testament. Do you think that the gospel authors and the NT authors like Paul an Peter didn't understand Daniel's prophecies despite being filled with the Holy Spirit and being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the New Testament? Again, I believe "the time of the end" corresponds with "the last days" and scripture indicates that the last days cover the time period between the first and second coming of Christ (the New Testament time period).
Marty, I think you copied and pasted from Revelation 7:9-17, correct ? The great multitude that John saw in heaven before the throne of God, and before the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13, one of the twenty four elders asked John if John realized who the great multitude were ? John did not know, so in Revelation 7:14 the elder told John that the great multitude were persons who had come out of great tribulation, who had been saved before dying.
Which is why in Revelation 17:10, the great multitue praised God and Jesus, saying.... 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
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The great tribulation will be a unmatched time of difficulty. And if not limited in length, no flesh on earth will survive.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Here is an example of how you manipulate the text to fit your doctrine.
Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
The context of this "great tribulation" is that it would occur in Judea, not in the whole world. So, to say that if it's duration wasn't limited, no flesh on earth will survive is a case of taking His words completely out of context. The context is that no flesh in Judea would survive if the time wasn't shortened, not that no flesh on earth would survive.
No, the great tribulation will be global.
The reason them in Judea, the region in Israel encompassing Jerusalem, are warned to flee to the mountains right away when they see the AoD set up on the temple mount is - because the false prophet is going to start rounding people up in the area and bringing them to the temple mount to worship the statue image - or be executed if refusing to do so.
Look at this verse in Revelation 20...
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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Them in Judaea fled prior to 70 AD when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies (Luke 21:20).
The Judaeans didn't see any AoD set up on the temple mount, because the armies were the AoD (synoptic parallel verses Luke 21:20; Matthew 24:15) whom they saw, and from whom they fled, well before the armies reached the temple mount.
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