Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

Killing, murdering, torturing, raping, pillaging, enslaving Christians and desecrating churches. -> the crusaders did all of those things, and more.

Readers, please take another look at what the crusaders did. Is that doing justice?

 

[Wrangler]

his position is totally indefensible.

Except for:

1. the verdict of history + many Scripture verses;
2. that is, except for the fact that my position is put into practice by more Christians than who oppose it,
3. of millions of Christians over many centuries have defended this position, it is "totally indefensible."

In light of this, one wonders what you hold to be an acceptance criteria for a defensible position?

Like any moral issue, there are pros and cons, both sides have a case, is defensible. It's only in the sober weighing of all available considerations can one arrive at a decision, make a choice, take a stand. The ultimate moral standard is survival. And the entire Bible can be summed up in 2 words: Choose Life. What is your opinion of Ordo amoris (Latin for "order of love")? What did you make of Bill Warner's Jihad vs Crusades video?

I've been watching Youtube videos of WWII recently. One made the comment that Truman's decision to drop the bomb is still hotly debated 80 year later. In practice, people have to make the best decision they can with the information they have at the time. It's not fair to say any position striving for justice is "totally indefensible," especially in light of precedence and a plurality, if not majority of support. Controversial, yes. Defensible, also yes. BTW, Harry Truman was a Christian, a Baptist.

 

[Matthias]

8,500 Roman Catholics were killed when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima; another 8,500 - 10,000 Roman Catholics were killed when the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

Christians from one nation killing Christians from another nation (civilian non-combatants at that) in war.

”Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.”

That’s an apt commentary on Christian participation in nuclear war.

Christians became agents of death, when the commission given to Christians is to be agents of life.

 

[Matthias]

War crimes. Jesus approves of his followers committing them?

 

[Matthias]

“My name is Miyako Taguchi. I am of the second generation of the nuclear bomb survivors from Nagasaki. Both my parents experienced extreme hunger, grief and horror due to the war and the nuclear bombing. I have deep respect for my parents not only because they survived unspeakable conditions but also because they have become righteous persons regardless of their horrible experience. As their child, I believe, I have been passed on the responsibility to speak out for peace and nuclear abolition. Never should we repeat such immoral events, mass destruction and war, killing and making innocent people suffer both mentally and physically and forever contaminating the earth.”

Meet Miyako Taguchi | Hibakusha Stories

“My name is Miyako Taguchi. I am of the 2nd generation of the nuclear bomb survivors from Nagasaki. Both parents experienced extreme hunger, grief and horror."

hibakushastories.org

I hope some will take the time to read her story. I appreciate what she’s doing but the kingdom of the world isn’t the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of the world will persist in acting this way until the Messiah returns.

She says what happened at Nagasaki was immoral. Was it? If you are a follower of Jesus and approve of what was done, you’d better pray that it wasn’t; followers of Jesus must never approve of, let alone participate in, immoral activities.

 

[Pet]

War crimes. Jesus approves of his followers committing them?

Does He?

 

[Lambano]

She says what happened at Nagasaki was immoral. Was it?

The official explanation was that the demonstration of American power ended the war more quickly and with fewer casualties and less suffering than a long drawn-out siege, invasion, and island-by-island takeover of Japan. Questionable. I’m sure Satan would’ve been pleased with either outcome.

 

[Lambano]

If you are a follower of Jesus and approve of what was done, you’d better pray that it wasn’t; followers of Jesus must never approve of, let alone participate in, immoral activities.

You can tell a lot about a man by what he disapproves (or approves) of. See Romans 8:32.

I’m not sure I like what it tells about me.

 

[Matthias]

Does He?

No.

 

[Matthias]

My son served in Bosnia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and he had to take life also. Messed his head up pretty bad. It happens.

I tossed and turned all night long thinking about your dear son.

My nephew served in Iraq and has PTSD. I’ve never spoken with him about it. My sister has told me heartbreaking stories about what he’s going through.

I‘ve spoken elsewhere on the forum about a man I worked with who served in Afghanistan and how he almost killed me one day after he returned when I surprised him in the lunch room. Before he went overseas, he asked me to pray for him, his wife and their son. When he returned, he told me that he wished he hadn’t survived. He wouldn’t tell me much about what he did and saw but what little he did tell me was hellish. He’s constantly in and out of hospital psych wards. The last time I spoke with him he told me he would do whatever he could to persuade his son not to serve in the military.

My friend - so kind and gentle before Afghanistan, so angry and volatile now - kept coming back to this passage of scripture in our conversations -

”The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world” (2 Corinthians 10:4, NIV).

He is obsessed with it and tormented by it.

Post in thread 'I Was But Now I Am'
I Was But Now I Am

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”



Does Jesus want his followers to experience hell?

 

[Matthias]

The followers of Jesus aren’t commanded to give their enemies hell. We’re commanded to give our enemies love, and to do them no harm.

 

[Matthias]

”Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s“ -> Jesus was speaking about paying taxes, not about serving in the military.

“Uncle Caesar wants you!” may be true but that isn’t Jesus’ message.

”Render unto God what is God’s” -> Jesus, I suggest, has in mind Deuteronomy 6:5 -

“You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

 

[Lambano]

I tossed and turned all night long thinking about your dear son.

Thank you. When he came back, his marriage blew up spectacularly, he spent some time in jail, his own daughter is afraid of him, and his son won’t talk to anybody on his side of the family, including us his grandparents. VA mental health care isn’t all that great to begin with and can only do so much.

I suppose that the fact that his experience bothers him is a good sign. A neighbor of mine, her big brother came back from ‘Nam and liked to regale us kids with stories of slitting VC throats and listening to the blood gurgle. Didn’t seem to bother him at all.

 

[Wrangler]

Saw this vid and thought of this thread. It ends by saying murder and rape happen by BAD men because WEAK men let them.

 

[Matthias]

Saw this vid and thought of this thread.

Readers, this is just another sexist attack of the devil on conscientious objectors. It‘s a common tactic. (See post #371.)

Masculinity isn’t defined as a male who is ”armed, ready to kill” his enemies.

Jesus, the apostles, and male followers of Jesus for three hundred years weren’t ”armed, ready to kill”. They were masculine. There have been millions upon millions of masculine men down through the centuries who haven’t taken up arms against their enemies.

Resist the temptation of the devil - in all of its forms, including this one - to disobey the Messiah.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Saw this vid and thought of this thread. It ends by saying murder and rape happen by BAD men because WEAK men let them.

Are you in favor of men taking action before the rape occurs?

As in let's go ahead and jail or kill all those that appear to be capable of rape?

Specifically what are you proposing be done to stop bad actors before they do crime?

 

[Matthias]

”The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world” (2 Corinthians 10:4, NIV).

The evil one is trying to persuade us in this thread that it isn’t masculine to believe and obey Paul’s teaching.

Remember, it is Wrangler who supports the crusaders - who, among their other atrocities, raped Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

 

[Matthias]

Saw this vid and thought of this thread. It ends by saying murder and rape happen by BAD men because WEAK men let them.

We may wonder how many attempted murders and rapes he has personally prevented by killing the bad men. He won’t say but his personal count is probably zero.

We might also ask how many attempted murders and rapes the typical follower of Jesus personally prevent by killing the bad men in his lifetime. Again, zero is probably the count for a typical follower of Jesus.

The “weak men” are those who follow the devil; the bad men.

The “strong men” are those who follow the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the good men.