The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament

[St. SteVen]

Do you realize what you are doing? Do you understand what the law is? Imagine for a moment that you are the leader of a political party. You are campaigning against the incumbent party. To attract votes, you need to present yourself as having the ability to do governing different. In order to do that, you need to change the laws of the incumbent government.
God is the King of His kingdom. You are suggesting that we need to "deconstruct" God's laws. Question.
Why do feel the need to change God's government? Doesn't He know what He is doing? Didn't Lucifer try that, and where did that get him?

Good question.
The Apostle Paul is outspoken on the subject that we are not under the law.
But I have also noticed a deconstruction of the law happening already in the gospels.

You talk about "God's government" like an Armstrongist. (Herbert W.) Church of God.

Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[St. SteVen]

Good question.
The Apostle Paul is outspoken on the subject that we are not under the law.
But I have also noticed a deconstruction of the law happening already in the gospels.

You talk about "God's government" like an Armstrongist. (Herbert W.) Church of God.

Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

On the other hand, there is some value in "the law".
Or more specifically "God's law".
This is where definitions become very important.
(see topic link below)

From my perspective "God's law" (of human conscience) preceded "the law" given to the Israelites alone through Moses.
And... "the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times
and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” - Acts 15:21 NIV
Common knowledge then.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Brakelite]

Good question.
The Apostle Paul is outspoken on the subject that we are not under the law.
But I have also noticed a deconstruction of the law happening already in the gospels.

You talk about "God's government" like an Armstrongist. (Herbert W.) Church of God.

Galatians 5:18 NIV
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

What law?

 

[St. SteVen]

What law?

The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

 

[saved by grace 101]

What law?

Steven is right, it is the law handed down at Sanai. But it is good to clarify concerning this.

Not being under law is not being under justification/righteousness of obeying the law.

Law as we all naturally understand law to mean has been abolished, for that law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. If we are not under righteousness of obeying the law, the penalty for transgression of it has been removed.

However, what is written in the moral law, is, according to Paul, holy, just and good(Rom7:12) what is holy, just and good has not been abolished, it has been placed in the hearts and minds of believers. In other words, a believer instinctively knows in their mind how God wants them to live, and in their heart(the flesh is another matter) they want to live that way, for what is written in the law is now in their hearts and minds. Because a believer in their heart wants to live as God desires them to live:

‘Their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more/no righteousness of obeying the law/not being under the law.

And, remarkable as it may seem, by following that route, sin shall no longer be your master, according to Paul:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb10:16-18



For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

 

[St. SteVen]

Steven is right, it is the law handed down at Sanai. But it is good to clarify concerning this.

Welcome to the forum.

However, what is written in the moral law, is, according to Paul, holy, just and good(Rom7:12) what is holy, just and good has not been abolished, it has been placed in the hearts and minds of believers.

I suppose we need to define what the Moral law is. The law that is just and good. (not abolished?)

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Welcome to the forum.


I suppose we need to define what the Moral law is. The law that is just and good. (not abolished?)

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What is written in the moral law is not abolished, I was careful to say, law as we all naturally understand law to mean has been abolished, and that would include the moral law. For me, to understand, or accept what 'law' is written in my heart and mind I turn to Paul again:

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20



Would a believer be conscious of sin/imperfections in their heart and mind if they commtted ‘wilfull’ sin lets say by stealing, committed adultery, taking the Lord’s name in vain, bearing false witness? All I know would. The problem often is, many who believe in grace get upset at the thought of what is written in most of the ten commandments being in their hearts and minds. I don’t believe they should. There is nothing at all wrong with desiring not to steal, murder, take the Lord’s name in vain etc, from a Christian perspective it is good not to want to do those things. The problem is, when you believe in righteousness/justification of obeying them. That has gone



Thank you for welcoming me to the site

 

[St. SteVen]

What is written in the moral law is not abolished, I was careful to say, law as we all naturally understand law to mean has been abolished, and that would include the moral law. For me, to understand, or accept what 'law' is written in my heart and mind I turn to Paul again:

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Would a believer be conscious of sin/imperfections in their heart and mind if they commtted ‘wilfull’ sin lets say by stealing, committed adultery, taking the Lord’s name in vain, bearing false witness? All I know would. The problem often is, many who believe in grace get upset at the thought of what is written in most of the ten commandments being in their hearts and minds. I don’t believe they should. There is nothing at all wrong with desiring not to steal, murder, take the Lord’s name in vain etc, from a Christian perspective it is good not to want to do those things. The problem is, when you believe in righteousness/justification of obeying them. That has gone

Is it fair to say that you believe the Moral law is the Ten Commandments?
Also fair to say that the TCs were engraved in letters on stone? If so, the Apostle says
they are the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now.
The letter of the law kills. The Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

 

[saved by grace 101]

Is it fair to say that you believe the Moral law is the Ten Commandments?
Also fair to say that the TCs were engraved in letters on stone? If so, the Apostle says
they are the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now.
The letter of the law kills. The Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Absolutely, the law engraved in stone was transitory, that is not where what is written in the law now is. The law engraved in stone was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, the law on the heart is not, no righteousness of obeying it

 

[St. SteVen]

Absolutely, the law engraved in stone was transitory, that is not where what is written in the law now is. The law engraved in stone was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, the law on the heart is not, no righteousness of obeying it

If the Moral law that was engraved in letters on stone were the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now, how could writing the same information on our hearts make them something else entirely?

 

[saved by grace 101]

If the Moral law that was engraved in letters on stone were the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now, how could writing the same information on our hearts make them something else entirely?

If the Moral law that was engraved in letters on stone were the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now, how could writing the same information on our hearts make them something else entirely?

You don't see any difference between looking to a law and striving to obey it in order to be righteous before God, and simply knowing in your mind God wants you to avoid doing certain things and in your heart not wanting to do them, whilst knowing their is no righteousness in obeying them? No condemnation concerning them?

 

[saved by grace 101]

If the Moral law that was engraved in letters on stone were the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now, how could writing the same information on our hearts make them something else entirely?

We really need to accept all biblical references concerning this subject. In Rom3:20-30 Paul stresses the believer has no righteousness of obeying the law, they have righteousness apart from law, they have no justification of works. Which law is he writing about? The only law you could not be justified by obeying was the moral side of the law, what many term the legalistic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could be faultlessly obeyed. What does Paul write in the final verse of Rom ch3?

Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law.

So as far as Paul was concerned, the law you are no longer under for justification is not made void.



Every Christian I have ever met would say they know in their mind God does not want them to steal, commit adultery, lie, take the Lord’s name in vain, and every Christian I know would say in their heart they do not want to do those things.

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts.

Would you not think it was a good thing for believers to know in their minds God did not want them to steal, commit adultery, lie, take the Lord’s name in vain? Do you not think it would be good for believers in their hearts not to want to do those things?

A change in the law, Yes, where what is legally binding if you like is concerned for salvation.

In Rom ch7 Paul spent most of the chapter referring to one of the Ten Commandments, and it was in that chapter he stated the law is holy, just and good.

 

[St. SteVen]

You don't see any difference between looking to a law and striving to obey it in order to be righteous before God, and simply knowing in your mind God wants you to avoid doing certain things and in your heart not wanting to do them, whilst knowing their is no righteousness in obeying them? No condemnation concerning them?

This is a good discussion, thanks.
I don't see why I would look at something that is the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death and seek to obey it.
What would I hope to gain except condemnation and death?

I understand that there is some value in the law as a backdrop to understand where we came from religiously.
But it seem to me that the Apostle is instructing us to turn away from the law and follow the better way of the Spirit.
He has made us ministers of a new covenant, not the old covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[St. SteVen]

We really need to accept all biblical references concerning this subject.

I think it is important that we differentiate between the different kinds of law.
I created a topic on the subject.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

 

[St. SteVen]

As given at Sinai yes, but the law is older than Sinai. The law was originally written on the hearts of men at their creation.

I agree.
I call that law, God's law. (the God-given law of human conscience)
Not to be confused with "the law" that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

 

[St. SteVen]

I say the law is in full force as ever. This never changed, and this can not change.

Unbelievers don't fulfill the law at all, since it requires sincere obedience. Believers fulfill it, although not perfectly.

And originally, in Eden, the law served as a means of justification before God, that is, justification by the works of the law. This now changed under the gospel (I mean, for those under the gospel, of whom it is said that they are "under grace", that is, believers in Christ). The law is still in full force, but it serves not now as a means of our justification before God. But that doesn't mean the law is not binding, it's binding to the utmost tittle, and that to every man, the believer and the unbeliever.

Moreover, Christ fulfilled this very law.

Can that ever work?

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's basically summarized under the ten commandments, as people say. Jesus and the New Testament preachers tell us that this law is essentially composed of two parts:

1. Love God with your whole being
2. Love your neighbour as yourself

If I remember correctly, you said earlier that you don't include all ten.
Which ones do you leave out?

Does the inclusion of the Sabbath prove that the Ten Commandments were for Israel alone?

- To whom were the Ten Commandments given? Deuteronomy 5:3-4 NIV It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. - To whom was the Sabbath...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

What exactly do you mean?

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 3:1-3 NIV
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit,
are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't see how that addresses my point. Paul is angry with the Galatians, because they thought they can achieve justification by the works of the law.

What are you trying to do?