The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home.

[Aunty Jane]

Something changed @Aunty Jane, what happened the moment when Jesus said "It is Finished" and died ?

1. Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (just hours before He died).

What happened the moment Jesus said “It is finished”? He died...so what was death to Jesus at that moment when he had successfully completed his assignment? He expired and paid for all our sins with his own life. No attempt by the devil and his cronies had steered Jesus away from fulfilling the reason for his earthly mission. It was a done deal.

Now, because I do not take any Scripture at face value without context and without knowledge of what all Scripture teaches, can we explore the Scriptures you have quoted, as a Christian after Christ’s death and resurrection would have understood them....?

What, for example, did Jesus say to the thief hung alongside of him? Was he promising him a place in heaven.......someone who had only a short time before was deriding him along with his partner in crime, that very day?

Matt 27:41-44...ESV..
“So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.”

So a last minute change of heart by one of them, was acknowledged by Jesus who promised him something....but what?

One of the most misunderstood statements by Jesus is that of Luke 23:43.
In the original Greek language, there were no upper and lower case letter, nor was there any punctuation, so the placement of the comma was at the discretion of the translators, who chose to put it after the word “you”.......but understanding that Jesus was to be confined to his tomb for the next three days, makes the placement of the comma there, to be an error. Jesus did not go anywhere for three days. He said he would be confined in his tomb ‘just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish for three days’. (Matt 12:40)

If the comma is placed after the word “today” (an idiom meaning that an oath made that day was to be carried out) then Jesus was not promising that man a place in heaven that day.....he made a promise that day, to be with him in “paradise”, not heaven. Where was paradise? To the Jews, “paradise” was a returning of the earth to the paradise conditions of Eden, under the rulership of the promised Messiah.

Isaiah had foretold wonderful things in the coming “new heavens and new earth”, (Isa 65:17:25) so this is what Jesus promised the repentant thief...a place in the coming paradise under his rulership.

This is why we need to study the whole Bible, not just bits of it that suggest what we want to believe.

2. Matt 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Again what was Jesus yielding up? To Jewish understanding, with no belief in immortal souls, the “spirit” was the breath in a person’s lungs...”the breath of life” that was given to Adam at his creation in Hebrew (“nᵊšāmâ “) was the animating spirit that made Adam a “soul”. He wansn’t given one, but became a soul when God started him breathing.

Strongs gives some of the definitions of the word “spirit” (Greek “pneuma”) to mean.....

“the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
   1. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
   2. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
      1. of the wind, hence the wind itself
      2. breath of nostrils or mouth”

We use the word “pneuma” in English with “pneumonia” and “pneumatic” meaning that air is involved.
So not just one meaning, but many different meanings. Accuracy in translation then, is vital to our understanding. The Scriptures are inspired of God....but translation is the work of men.

Matt 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
Matt 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,Matt 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

What actually happened here...?

At the moment that Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, a very heavy barrier between two Compartments, indicating that the barrier between the Holy Compartment of the Temple was now open to the Most Holy Compartment where the the High Priest alone was allowed to enter. This indicated that the way was now open for others to follow Jesus to heaven. No one had gone to heaven before this event. (John 3:13)

What about the earthquake and “the bodies” of the saints being raised?
Again what is the context here? This is the moment of Jesus death, and his resurrection was still three days away.....how then are his “saints raised” to walk on the earth before he was resurrected? The timing is wrong.

This has another explanation that fits in with the whole narrative.
The earthquake that occurred exposed “the bodies of the saints”, tipping them out of their graves....(this has occurred in some countries, so not a unique event)...it was those who saw this happen who went to Jerusalem to report it after Jesus resurrection. Again translation gives a false impression that does not fit with what the Bible says about the timing of the event, and the condition of the dead. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Since Jesus died and resurrected we live in a new reality.

Indeed we do, since Jesus opened up a whole new possibility for his “saints” (chosen ones) to contemplate....a role in the kingdom that they thought would be on earth, now was revealed to be in heaven and would require a completely different resurrection to what they had been taught in their Hebrew Scriptures. They had to be “born again” at their resurrection in a spirit body, in order to dwell in the presence of God and his heavenly family.

A thorough study of the Bible reveals a very different story to what is taught in church theology.....
Unless we know the difference, we will be found on the wrong road.....but in large company. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) The majority always side with the devil.....the master deceiver. We can choose accurate knowledge and not be one of them.

 

[walter]

Isaiah had foretold wonderful things in the coming “new heavens and new earth”, (Isa 65:17:25) so this is what Jesus promised the repentant thief...a place in the coming paradise under his rulership.

I have found some additional information that agrees with you...

Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

Also:
kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met’ emou ese en to parad[eiso]. (“And immediately he said to me: ‘Most truly today I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.’”)–Descent into Hades, an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig,869, under Luke 23:43.
ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met’ emou. (“And he said to him: ‘Today I tell you the truth,
that I should have you in Paradise with me.’”)–Gospel of Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate)b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under Luke 23:43.

Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfth
century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 as “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” On that very day,when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Acts 10:40;1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18 ) Thus, the word “today” at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer’s being with Jesus in Paradise._

 

[Brakelite]

He allows us to tell him by our beliefs and actions whether we are a soul worthy of Christ’s sacrifice.
He died for all

but it isn’t automatic.....it requires qualification on our part.

You are placing conditions on a freely granted redemption. We have no need of qualifications nor do we need to meet certain criteria or conditions in order to receive Christ into our lives and be forgiven.
Obedience, sound theology, good works, not one or any of these are essential to receive salvation. The only qualification one requires is his/her need.
“8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ”
Romans 5:8-11 KJV

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Nothing said about being 'worthy' in the above verses.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

That's a terrible version you are using. Christ did not give the people of Noah's day a second chance. Read the same passage in the KJV and you should come to a completely different conclusion. One that harmonizes with the rest of scripture.

These were the disobedient angels who materialised in Noah’s day and produce a hybrid race of freakish humans who wreaked havoc on earth because of their violence and licentious behaviour.

On what basis do you assume angels can procreate with humans?

Where was paradise? To the Jews, “paradise” was a returning of the earth to the paradise conditions of Eden, under the rulership of the promised Messiah.

We read here that the paradise of God has the tree of life.
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. ”
Revelation 2:7 KJV

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What else is in the paradise of God?

“1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ”
Revelation 22:1-2 KJV

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“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. ”
Revelation 22:14 KJV

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Here we see that all those things, including presumable Jesus and the thief, the tree of life, the river of life, the throne of God, all in the midst of paradise which is in the new Jerusalem, which is described as descending upon the earth at the close of the millennium. Upon the new earth under a new heaven, which Jesus said the meek shall inherit. The big question, where is everyone else after the resurrection at Jesus second coming? If the thief is in paradise in heaven before the throne of God, where's everyone else? Not on earth that's for sure. Because the earth is destroyed, empty, barren, uninhabitable, and in utter ruin after all the plagues have laid it bare.

This is why we need to study the whole Bible, not just bits of it that suggest what we want to believe.

Methinks you need to heed your own counsel.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is why we need to study the whole Bible, not just bits of it that suggest what we want to believe.

Topics:

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?
​

Examining the supposed "Whole Bible" view. - No consensus?​

[

 

[walter]

I feel we should show love and respect to most everyone no matter what they believe, do you agree?

“The second [commandment] is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’”—MATT. 22:39.

Luke 10:29-37
....33  But a certain Sa·marʹi·tan traveling the road came upon him, and at seeing him, he was moved with pity. 34  So he approached him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he mounted him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35  The next day he took out two de·narʹi·i, gave them to the innkeeper, and said: ‘Take care of him, and whatever you spend besides this, I will repay you when I return.’ 36  Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” 37  He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.”d Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

John 4:9  So the Sa·marʹi·tan woman said to him: “How is it that you, despite being a Jew, ask me for a drink even though I am a Sa·marʹi·tan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Sa·marʹi·tans.)

Romans 15:13 May the God who gives hope fill you with all joy and peace by your trusting in him, so that you may abound* in hope with power of holy spirit.

Matthew 7:12 “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them.a This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.

Matthew 5:43-45 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44  However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45...

Romans 12:20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.”

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all people and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord.

Matthew 28:19, 20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,a baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Matthew 7:12
New International Version
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are placing conditions on a freely granted redemption. We have no need of qualifications nor do we need to meet certain criteria or conditions in order to receive Christ into our lives and be forgiven.
Obedience, sound theology, good works, not one or any of these are essential to receive salvation. The only qualification one requires is his/her need.

Life was conditional right from the beginning...or didn’t you notice that humans were given the choice of two trees in the garden? One would bring everlasting life and the other death. Free will demanded that they had this choice otherwise nothing about the Edenic scenario makes any sense.
What was the qualification? OBEDIENCE.

“8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ”

When the fall of man took place in Eden, God stepped in straight away with his solution to the problem of the abuse of free will. His first prophesy, (Gen 3:15) was not fully understood until the Savior came and he was delivered his “heel” wound by the agents of the devil. The fatal head wound would not be delivered to the devil (the original rebel) until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect.

So right from the beginning God had his means to save mankind already in place, before Adam and his wife brought forth their defective children....this is the “founding of the world”....the human race descended from them. Reconciliation was only possible by means of this arrangement for their redemption.

That's a terrible version you are using. Christ did not give the people of Noah's day a second chance. Read the same passage in the KJV and you should come to a completely different conclusion. One that harmonizes with the rest of scripture.

The use of that outdated dinosaur in today’s world is a joke. Who speaks archaic English any more?
What is the purpose of a translation if not to convey accurately things from one language to another?
All the KJV does is harmonise with the rest of its own errors.

On what basis do you assume angels can procreate with humans?

On the basis of what is said in the Bible as well as God’s reaction to the situation. He destroyed all life on the earth, including all the land dwelling creatures. Why would he take such drastic action unless there was a purpose. He could just have wiped the wicked ones out like he did with Sodom and Gomorrah....so his response to the situation shows us the gravity of what had taken place.

Jude 1:5-7....
“Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” (NASB)

Jude tells us that ‘angels did not keep their proper abode’ and the account in Genesis shows us that these materialised angels and human women, produced offspring called the “Nephilim”....monstrous hybrid humans who wreaked havoc among mankind at that time with their violence and immoral behaviour.
By flooding the earth, God forced the rebel angels back to the spirit realm (because they had materialised human flesh and would have died if they had stayed in the flesh)...and it destroyed the freakish humans that they produced and who had no right to exist.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We read here that the paradise of God has the tree of life.
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. ”
Revelation 2:7 KJV

Where is the “paradise of God”? If the original tree of life was here on earth, so the trees of life mentioned in Revelation will also be here on earth so that the partakers can live forever as God first intended humans to do. (Gen 3:22-24)

What else is in the paradise of God?

“1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ”
Revelation 22:1-2 KJV

Yes....”for the healing of the nations”. Where are these nations? Do we imagine that they are in heaven?
God created mankind to live forever on earth, so Christ’s sacrifice pays the price for reconciliation with God and opens the way for the completion of his purpose for this earth and all who will share life in the restoration of the paradise to come. (Isa 55:11)

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. ”
Revelation 22:14 KJV

There you have it.....the qualification needed to enter the Kingdom of God and the “right to eat of the tree of life”.....those who “DO HIS COMMANDMENTS”....this is action, not empty belief. We have to show God that we are disciples of his son by what we do in evidence of that fact.

Here we see that all those things, including presumable Jesus and the thief, the tree of life, the river of life, the throne of God, all in the midst of paradise which is in the new Jerusalem, which is described as descending upon the earth at the close of the millennium.

There are two resurrections spoken of in the Bible that are not mentioned in the churches of Christendom, because they don’t believe in two...only one. All are going to heaven, but no one seems to know why?
What do they assume that they will do in heaven? Most have no idea....but it’s going to be wonderful!

So what is the purpose of having two resurrections to two different destinations? One to heaven for Christ’s “saints” (Rev 20:6)....and the other to a restoration of life on earth under the rulership of Christ and his “saints” or “chosen ones”? (John 5:28-29)
The Lord’s Prayer gives us the answer.....what did Jesus teach us to pray for?
“Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.......how often I repeated that prayer in church as a child without ever understanding what I was praying for? How many still do?

With the “coming” of the Kingdom (which is coming to us, not that we are going to it) God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
So what is the Kingdom? How does it “come” and how is God’s will then “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

Can you tell me?

Upon the new earth under a new heaven, which Jesus said the meek shall inherit. The big question, where is everyone else after the resurrection at Jesus second coming? If the thief is in paradise in heaven before the throne of God, where's everyone else? Not on earth that's for sure. Because the earth is destroyed, empty, barren, uninhabitable, and in utter ruin after all the plagues have laid it bare.

Since the expectation for many is that the earth itself will be destroyed, your question is without an answer, but seeing as how God has no need to destroy the earth itself, but only to deal with wicked humanity upon it, the answer is quite simple.....God will cleanse the earth just as he did in Noah’s day to combat the same enemies who ruined things on the earth back then. (Matt 24:37-39) This time permanently.

The flood was not a solution to sin, because it was not yet time for the Messiah’s appearance.....it was a stop-gap measure to reset things on the earth...to start again and put God’s purpose back on track. But it set a precedent for what was to come in the finale......wickedness would be eliminated, but this time it will be by the fire of God’s anger in destroying man’s self imposed rulership, and in the process they destroyed all the good that God intended for his earthly family. God even addresses this who “ruin the earth”....something impossible until the present age. (Rev 11:18)

Our earth is groaning under the gross mismanagement of its environment the misuse of its resources. And with the nuclear threat, man now has the ability to wipe out all life on this planet. God will not allow that to happen....but he will get close.

He will have the pleasure of seeing wickedness and all who practice it eliminated from existence so that his kingdom can reinstate what God first purposed as the life she wanted mankind to enjoy here.

This is the big picture for those who are granted the ability to see it. There are none so blind as those who have swallowed the devil’s lies. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
The “good news of the kingdom” will not be seen as good news to the “many”....only to the “few”. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

 

[Jack]

Where is the “paradise of God”? If the original tree of life was here on earth, so the trees of life mentioned in Revelation will also be here on earth so that the partakers can live forever as God first intended humans to do. (Gen 3:22-24)

Yes....”for the healing of the nations”. Where are these nations? Do we imagine that they are in heaven?
God created mankind to live forever on earth, so Christ’s sacrifice pays the price for reconciliation with God and opens the way for the completion of his purpose for this earth and all who will share life in the restoration of the paradise to come. (Isa 55:11)

There you have it.....the qualification needed to enter the Kingdom of God and the “right to eat of the tree of life”.....those who “DO HIS COMMANDMENTS”....this is action, not empty belief. We have to show God that we are disciples of his son by what we do in evidence of that fact.

There are two resurrections spoken of in the Bible that are not mentioned in the churches of Christendom, because they don’t believe in two...only one. All are going to heaven, but no one seems to know why?
What do they assume that they will do in heaven? Most have no idea....but it’s going to be wonderful!

So what is the purpose of having two resurrections to two different destinations? One to heaven for Christ’s “saints” (Rev 20:6)....and the other to a restoration of life on earth under the rulership of Christ and his “saints” or “chosen ones”? (John 5:28-29)
The Lord’s Prayer gives us the answer.....what did Jesus teach us to pray for?
“Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.......how often I repeated that prayer in church as a child without ever understanding what I was praying for? How many still do?

With the “coming” of the Kingdom (which is coming to us, not that we are going to it) God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
So what is the Kingdom? How does it “come” and how is God’s will then “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

Can you tell me?

Since the expectation for many is that the earth itself will be destroyed, your question is without an answer, but seeing as how God has no need to destroy the earth itself, but only to deal with wicked humanity upon it, the answer is quite simple.....God will cleanse the earth just as he did in Noah’s day to combat the same enemies who ruined things on the earth back then. (Matt 24:37-39) This time permanently.

The flood was not a solution to sin, because it was not yet time for the Messiah’s appearance.....it was a stop-gap measure to reset things on the earth...to start again and put God’s purpose back on track. But it set a precedent for what was to come in the finale......wickedness would be eliminated, but this time it will be by the fire of God’s anger in destroying man’s self imposed rulership, and in the process they destroyed all the good that God intended for his earthly family. God even addresses this who “ruin the earth”....something impossible until the present age. (Rev 11:18)

Our earth is groaning under the gross mismanagement of its environment the misuse of its resources. And with the nuclear threat, man now has the ability to wipe out all life on this planet. God will not allow that to happen....but he will get close.

He will have the pleasure of seeing wickedness and all who practice it eliminated from existence so that his kingdom can reinstate what God first purposed as the life she wanted mankind to enjoy here.

This is the big picture for those who are granted the ability to see it. There are none so blind as those who have swallowed the devil’s lies. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
The “good news of the kingdom” will not be seen as good news to the “many”....only to the “few”. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

Can you tell us why Jesus warned us of EVERLASTING FIRE?

 

[St. SteVen]

The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home.​

The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

 

[quietthinker]

The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

[

A magnificent publication..... 150 pages

 

[Aunty Jane]

The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home.​

The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

What is the alternative to that homecoming?
With what attitude did the son return? Was he expecting a reinstatement of his privileged position? Or did he realize that his father’s hired workers were better off than he now was...penniless and destitute.

What did he come to realize only when he hit rock bottom?

Why did his father see him “a long way off” and run to meet him, when he had made no effort at all to first of all dissuade him from making this mistake, (at cost to his father), and then make no contact with him the whole time he was squandering his inheritance?

There are so many lessons in that story....

 

[Brakelite]

Where is the “paradise of God”? If the original tree of life was here on earth, so the trees of life mentioned in Revelation will also be here on earth so that the partakers can live forever as God first intended humans to do. (Gen 3:22-24)

Yes....”for the healing of the nations”. Where are these nations? Do we imagine that they are in heaven?
God created mankind to live forever on earth, so Christ’s sacrifice pays the price for reconciliation with God and opens the way for the completion of his purpose for this earth and all who will share life in the restoration of the paradise to come. (Isa 55:11)

There you have it.....the qualification needed to enter the Kingdom of God and the “right to eat of the tree of life”.....those who “DO HIS COMMANDMENTS”....this is action, not empty belief. We have to show God that we are disciples of his son by what we do in evidence of that fact.

There are two resurrections spoken of in the Bible that are not mentioned in the churches of Christendom, because they don’t believe in two...only one. All are going to heaven, but no one seems to know why?
What do they assume that they will do in heaven? Most have no idea....but it’s going to be wonderful!

So what is the purpose of having two resurrections to two different destinations? One to heaven for Christ’s “saints” (Rev 20:6)....and the other to a restoration of life on earth under the rulership of Christ and his “saints” or “chosen ones”? (John 5:28-29)
The Lord’s Prayer gives us the answer.....what did Jesus teach us to pray for?
“Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.......how often I repeated that prayer in church as a child without ever understanding what I was praying for? How many still do?

With the “coming” of the Kingdom (which is coming to us, not that we are going to it) God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
So what is the Kingdom? How does it “come” and how is God’s will then “done on earth as it is in heaven”?

Can you tell me?

Since the expectation for many is that the earth itself will be destroyed, your question is without an answer, but seeing as how God has no need to destroy the earth itself, but only to deal with wicked humanity upon it, the answer is quite simple.....God will cleanse the earth just as he did in Noah’s day to combat the same enemies who ruined things on the earth back then. (Matt 24:37-39) This time permanently.

The flood was not a solution to sin, because it was not yet time for the Messiah’s appearance.....it was a stop-gap measure to reset things on the earth...to start again and put God’s purpose back on track. But it set a precedent for what was to come in the finale......wickedness would be eliminated, but this time it will be by the fire of God’s anger in destroying man’s self imposed rulership, and in the process they destroyed all the good that God intended for his earthly family. God even addresses this who “ruin the earth”....something impossible until the present age. (Rev 11:18)

Our earth is groaning under the gross mismanagement of its environment the misuse of its resources. And with the nuclear threat, man now has the ability to wipe out all life on this planet. God will not allow that to happen....but he will get close.

He will have the pleasure of seeing wickedness and all who practice it eliminated from existence so that his kingdom can reinstate what God first purposed as the life she wanted mankind to enjoy here.

This is the big picture for those who are granted the ability to see it. There are none so blind as those who have swallowed the devil’s lies. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
The “good news of the kingdom” will not be seen as good news to the “many”....only to the “few”. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

You asked some good questions, and made some excellent points, but your conclusions leave questions unanswered, and your assumption is that there aren't answers. You said, quote:
There you have it.....the qualification needed to enter the Kingdom of God and the “right to eat of the tree of life”.....those who “DO HIS COMMANDMENTS”....this is action, not empty belief...
and I agree with you. It is a qualification for entering heaven. But it isn't something we do in order to earn salvation. Salvation comes to us by grace through faith, it is a gift. Once received, we are born again to a new life, a life in harmony with God, a life in relationship with His Son Jesus. All for free, and yes, it is our choice to receive that, and more. "For to them that received Him, gave He power to become children of God". Who is it we are to receive? Jesus. He abides on us through His Spirit, empowering is to obey God's commandments. So yes, obedience to His commandments is a condition of entering glory, but the power to obey is the result of the grace of God "working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure."we

You also asked what do we do in heaven. That's a big question. Our time in heaven is limited to 1000 years, then, along with all our brothers and sisters in Christ, come to the new earth and live here forever as it was intended in the beginning. The holy city, the new Jerusalem, will also be on the earth after having descended from heaven, and the earth will become the we doing throughout the are of the universe, with God having His eternal throne here. What are we doing throughout the 1000 years? Judging angels and men who rejected Christ as their Lord and Master. Confirming with Christ, through thorough investigation that God is just, and the destruction of the wicked, including Satan and his angels, is fair and warranted, and that God did everything He could to convince sinners to repent. None of God's actions were arbitrary, but came from a heart of love and compassion. No-one, neither angels or men, will ever doubt God again, or have any reason to not believe God is love.

 

[Aunty Jane]

IYou asked some good questions, and made some excellent points, but your conclusions leave questions unanswered, and your assumption is that there aren't answers. You said, quote:
There you have it.....the qualification needed to enter the Kingdom of God and the “right to eat of the tree of life”.....those who “DO HIS COMMANDMENTS”....this is action, not empty belief...
and I agree with you. It is a qualification for entering heaven. But it isn't something we do in order to earn salvation. Salvation comes to us by grace through faith, it is a gift.

I never said it was earned...but the gift has qualifications....if you qualify, by obeying all that Christ taught, you receive the gift...otherwise why do we need to be obedient to God’s commands? Isn’t that what he asked of us from day one? ‘Believing’ has to be backed up by works. (James 2:18-20)

Once received, we are born again to a new life, a life in harmony with God, a life in relationship with His Son Jesus. All for free, and yes, it is our choice to receive that, and more. "For to them that received Him, gave He power to become children of God".

I have a very different view on what it means to be “born again”....you have to be chosen as one of God’s elect/ saints/ chosen ones....and you have to die and be resurrected, before being “born again” in a new body, as a spirit “son of God”. It means to die in the flesh as Jesus did, and be resurrected as a spirit...one who can dwell in the heavenly realm, in the presence of God....something flesh and blood humans cannot do. It is our choice to become a Christian, but it is God’s choice to be one of his elect.

Not all Christians have the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) These are the ruling “body of Christ” who will reign with him as “kings and priests for a thousand years” (Rev 20:6). They will be in heaven but they will rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

Just as God ruled his ancient people through chosen human representatives, he will do so again.

Who is it we are to receive? Jesus. He abides on us through His Spirit, empowering is to obey God's commandments. So yes, obedience to His commandments is a condition of entering glory, but the power to obey is the result of the grace of God "working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure."

Those who are chosen to rule with Christ, do receive the Holy Spirit, anointing them as a token for the position they will hold when they are united with Christ, (Eph 1:8-14) and his Kingdom takes over world rulership. As it was prophesied for our day by Daniel. (Dan 2:44)

You also asked what do we do in heaven. That's a big question. Our time in heaven is limited to 1000 years, then, along with all our brothers and sisters in Christ, come to the new earth and live here forever as it was intended in the beginning.

Not sure how you get that from Scripture....we know what the elect are chosen for...Rev 20:6 tells us....

“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” (NASB)
It is future tense, so there were to be no “priests” on earth in Christianity as long as this world under satan remains. When the Kingdom rules, all mankind will come under their care and loving guidance.

The apostle Paul also speaks of the “first resurrection”...
1 Thess 4:13-17...
“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (NASB)

What picture does this paint?

The dead in Christ, (his elect) who “sleep” in death, would not be raised before those who were alive on earth when Christ returned.
Upon his return he would raise them to life in heaven all together. The latter, being instantly transformed (caught up in the clouds) because they didn’t need to spend time in the grave as their anointed brethren had done. The first to be chosen are the first to be raised....

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years have ended”....(Rev 20:4-5) so, not until the end of that thousands years will all humanity be restored to godly sinless perfection, as it was in the beginning. Jesus will call all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29) to resume their lives the way God intended. Everything in the new world is a welcome restoration.....

There are two ‘Jerusalems’....and two ‘Mount Zions’......one earthly and one heavenly. The earthly ones were a type for the ones in heaven, where the grand spiritual temple of God will remain forever. (Heb 12:22-23)

The holy city, the new Jerusalem, will also be on the earth after having descended from heaven, and the earth will become the we doing throughout the are of the universe, with God having His eternal throne here.

Not sure what you mean here...

What are we doing throughout the 1000 years? Judging angels and men who rejected Christ as their Lord and Master. Confirming with Christ, through thorough investigation that God is just, and the destruction of the wicked, including Satan and his angels, is fair and warranted, and that God did everything He could to convince sinners to repent.

That is hardly the role of “kings and priests”. The 1000 years are set aside for the all the things that the devil unleashed on the human race to be undone...completely reversed, so that the rulership of Christ and his elect will deliver a perfect sinless race of obedient humans at the end of the thousand years, to be tested one last time when the devil is released from his prison. (Rev 20:1-3)
Only after that final test will mankind be free to resume the life that God originally planned for them.....as Rev 21:2-4 says....

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2  I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3  With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Three times in Scripture this “new heaven and new earth” are mentioned.....so what does it mean?

The “new heaven” is not the physical Universe as these bear no defect...what God created is still perfect. Since rulership over mankind was always intended to be from heaven, this “new heaven” is the restoration of God’s heavenly rulership....and the “new earth” likewise is not a new planet, as it too was created perfect...it is mankind’s disgraceful rulership under satan that has despoiled life on this earth.....in the new world, all that offended and disrespected the Creator and his creation, will be replaced with an obedient human race, up to the task that God originally assigned to them.....to transform the whole earth into a beautiful paradise, with no hint of it former rulership left behind....all of it will be gone and a new life to be enjoyed as God first intended. (Isa 65:17-25)

None of God's actions were arbitrary, but came from a heart of love and compassion. No-one, neither angels or men, will ever doubt God again, or have any reason to not believe God is love.

Absolutely! What God has allowed to take place has set precedents for all time to come, ensuring that no human or angel will ever be permitted to abuse their free will again.

It’s been a tough lesson but one that will last for all eternity....a mere blip on the radar by comparison.

 

[Jay Ross]

The deepest human desire is not to be changed from what we believe and feel safe with/in.

 

[walter]

But it isn't something we do in order to earn salvation. Salvation comes to us by grace through faith, it is a gift.

Shouldn't we include both of the scriptures in our understanding?

Hebrew 5:9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Ephesians 2:8-10
Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. 9 It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about. 10 God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. This is why he sent Christ to make us what we are.

 

[Jack]

The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

[

But you said you don't trust the Bible! And then you quote the Bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

But you said you don't trust the Bible! And then you quote the Bible.

It seems that you misunderstood me.
We should clear that up.

Since I quote the Bible, I obviously trust it.

 

[Brakelite]

I never said it was earned...but the gift has qualifications....if you qualify, by obeying all that Christ taught, you receive the gift...otherwise why do we need to be obedient to God’s commands? Isn’t that what he asked of us from day one? ‘Believing’ has to be backed up by works. (James 2:18-20)

I have a very different view on what it means to be “born again”....you have to be chosen as one of God’s elect/ saints/ chosen ones....and you have to die and be resurrected, before being “born again” in a new body, as a spirit “son of God”. It means to die in the flesh as Jesus did, and be resurrected as a spirit...one who can dwell in the heavenly realm, in the presence of God....something flesh and blood humans cannot do. It is our choice to become a Christian, but it is God’s choice to be one of his elect.

Not all Christians have the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) These are the ruling “body of Christ” who will reign with him as “kings and priests for a thousand years” (Rev 20:6). They will be in heaven but they will rule over redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

Just as God ruled his ancient people through chosen human representatives, he will do so again.


Those who are chosen to rule with Christ, do receive the Holy Spirit, anointing them as a token for the position they will hold when they are united with Christ, (Eph 1:8-14) and his Kingdom takes over world rulership. As it was prophesied for our day by Daniel. (Dan 2:44)

Not sure how you get that from Scripture....we know what the elect are chosen for...Rev 20:6 tells us....

“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” (NASB)
It is future tense, so there were to be no “priests” on earth in Christianity as long as this world under satan remains. When the Kingdom rules, all mankind will come under their care and loving guidance.

The apostle Paul also speaks of the “first resurrection”...
1 Thess 4:13-17...
“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” (NASB)

What picture does this paint?

The dead in Christ, (his elect) who “sleep” in death, would not be raised before those who were alive on earth when Christ returned.
Upon his return he would raise them to life in heaven all together. The latter, being instantly transformed (caught up in the clouds) because they didn’t need to spend time in the grave as their anointed brethren had done. The first to be chosen are the first to be raised....

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years have ended”....(Rev 20:4-5) so, not until the end of that thousands years will all humanity be restored to godly sinless perfection, as it was in the beginning. Jesus will call all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29) to resume their lives the way God intended. Everything in the new world is a welcome restoration.....

There are two ‘Jerusalems’....and two ‘Mount Zions’......one earthly and one heavenly. The earthly ones were a type for the ones in heaven, where the grand spiritual temple of God will remain forever. (Heb 12:22-23)

Not sure what you mean here...

That is hardly the role of “kings and priests”. The 1000 years are set aside for the all the things that the devil unleashed on the human race to be undone...completely reversed, so that the rulership of Christ and his elect will deliver a perfect sinless race of obedient humans at the end of the thousand years, to be tested one last time when the devil is released from his prison. (Rev 20:1-3)
Only after that final test will mankind be free to resume the life that God originally planned for them.....as Rev 21:2-4 says....

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2  I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3  With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Three times in Scripture this “new heaven and new earth” are mentioned.....so what does it mean?

The “new heaven” is not the physical Universe as these bear no defect...what God created is still perfect. Since rulership over mankind was always intended to be from heaven, this “new heaven” is the restoration of God’s heavenly rulership....and the “new earth” likewise is not a new planet, as it too was created perfect...it is mankind’s disgraceful rulership under satan that has despoiled life on this earth.....in the new world, all that offended and disrespected the Creator and his creation, will be replaced with an obedient human race, up to the task that God originally assigned to them.....to transform the whole earth into a beautiful paradise, with no hint of it former rulership left behind....all of it will be gone and a new life to be enjoyed as God first intended. (Isa 65:17-25)

Absolutely! What God has allowed to take place has set precedents for all time to come, ensuring that no human or angel will ever be permitted to abuse their free will again.

It’s been a tough lesson but one that will last for all eternity....a mere blip on the radar by comparison.

That you are by your own confession not born again and hence do not have the Spirit of Christ abiding in you, means that all your teachings are from human reasoning and are limited only to understanding from a human intellect, and bereft of spiritual truth.

 

[Brakelite]

Shouldn't we include both of the scriptures in our understanding?

Hebrew 5:9
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Ephesians 2:8-10
Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. 9 It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about. 10 God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. This is why he sent Christ to make us what we are.

Never intended to suggest that obedience was ever only an optional extra. Obedience is absolutely essential to entrance into glory, but our obedience is not the means by which we are justified.

 

[walter]

Never intended to suggest that obedience was ever only an optional extra. Obedience is absolutely essential to entrance into glory, but our obedience is not the means by which we are justified.

I think it's fine to explain things in your own words, but the words at Hebrews 5:9 and Ephesians 2:8-10 are much more important than anything we can explain in our own words.

Hebrews 5:9 explains we need to be obedient to Jesus for eternal life, so no matter how we look at it, we still need to be obedient for eternal life. And Ephesians 2:8-10 explains you are saved by faith in God, this is God's gift to you, not anything you have done on your own, It isn't something you have earned, God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live.

Either way we explain it, Hebrews 5:9 explicitly states we need to be obedient to Jesus for Everlasting life.
Shouldn't the scriptures be a much better explanation, then what we can explain ourselves?