The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament

[saved by grace 101]

When I am in the [Holy] Spirit, yes.

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

​

Sadly, in your position, there never can be victory over sin, at any moment.

I do understand your type of religion, I was raised with it, quote the letter of scripture and infer you perfectly abide by it. As a minister of fifty years once stated
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''
Better to be humble and honest in my view

 

[saved by grace 101]

Hey 101, slightly off topic :-
Why do you believe today no longer requires LAY HANDS to receive the HS ?
Acts 8:17 Peter - lay hands to receive HS
Acts 19:6 Paul. - lay hands to receive HS
Eph 1:13 - believe the Gospel = sealed with HS

Well if you're talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit. I went to hear an internationally known evangelist speak once. A few of us went out for private prayer after the service with them. The evangelist told me much a bout my life though they had never met me before, and confirmed I spoke in tongues. No one had ever laid hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit. Best not to put God in a box. BTW, I hadn't stated you dont need to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit

 

[rvmb]

I do understand your type of religion, I was raised with it, quote the letter of scripture and infer you perfectly abide by it. As a minister of fifty years once stated
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''
Better to be humble and honest in my view

""Better to be humble and honest in my view""
Yes, in some way, we still sin in either thought, desire, word, deed/fail to do what is right.

 

[rvmb]

Well if you're talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit. I went to hear an internationally known evangelist speak once. A few of us went out for private prayer after the service with them. The evangelist told me much a bout my life though they had never met me before, and confirmed I spoke in tongues. No one had ever laid hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit. Best not to put God in a box. BTW, I hadn't stated you dont need to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit

""BTW, I hadn't stated you dont need to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit""
Eph 1:13 teaches sealed with HS once you believe the Gospel.
Yet Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6 teaches LAY HANDS was required.
Which do you think is applicable today ?.

 

[saved by grace 101]

""BTW, I hadn't stated you dont need to have hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit""
Eph 1:13 teaches sealed with HS once you believe the Gospel.
Yet Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6 teaches LAY HANDS was required.
Which do you think is applicable today ?.

We all receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion, for you cannot be a christian unless the spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9) I agree with evangelicals, there is a secondary experience, one they term the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this is often received via the laying on hands, and often not
The samarians are a good example in Acts ch8, they became believers and got baptised. Im sure Phillip did not then leave them in unsaved states. However, Peter and John went to see them, laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit, in my view the filling, or baptism of the Holy Spirit

 

[rvmb]

We all receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion, for you cannot be a christian unless the spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9) I agree with evangelicals, there is a secondary experience, one they term the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this is often received via the laying on hands, and often not
The samarians are a good example in Acts ch8, they became believers and got baptised. Im sure Phillip did not then leave them in unsaved states. However, Peter and John went to see them, laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit, in my view the filling, or baptism of the Holy Spirit

""for you cannot be a christian unless the spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9)""
100 % agreed, no HS = not saved.
""We all receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion""
What do you understand is required for the conversion to occur today ?
""Im sure Phillip did not then leave them in unsaved states.""
He did what was required THEN but what about today ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 is what I understand is the only way to receive the HS today as taught by Paul (Rom to Philemon)
Are there other verses that you believe I should be taking into account ?

 

[saved by grace 101]

""for you cannot be a christian unless the spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9)""
100 % agreed, no HS = not saved.
""We all receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion""
What do you understand is required for the conversion to occur today ?
""Im sure Phillip did not then leave them in unsaved states.""
He did what was required THEN but what about today ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 is what I understand is the only way to receive the HS today as taught by Paul (Rom to Philemon)
Are there other verses that you believe I should be taking into account ?

Why would it be any different today to be placed in a saved state than in biblical times? That doesn't make any sense to me.
We all have different experiences that basically add up to the same thing. You cannot come to Christ unless the father draws you(through the Spirit) They are Jesus words.
The Spirit convicts you, you ask Christ into your life as your saviour from sin, believe it is done, you are placed in a saved state. You can tinker at the edges if you like, repentance of a life lived of sin, through conviction of the spirit, but basically that's it. If you feel Ive left something out, Im sure you'll tell me

 

[saved by grace 101]

""for you cannot be a christian unless the spirit dwells in you(Rom8:9)""
100 % agreed, no HS = not saved.
""We all receive the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion""
What do you understand is required for the conversion to occur today ?
""Im sure Phillip did not then leave them in unsaved states.""
He did what was required THEN but what about today ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 is what I understand is the only way to receive the HS today as taught by Paul (Rom to Philemon)
Are there other verses that you believe I should be taking into account ?

BTW, as you said earlier, aren't we veering off topic here? Wouldn't you be better starting a thread on the subject?

 

[saved by grace 101]

I fully agree with that sentence, and my replies demonstrate, by the scripture, which of us it is. (hint: it is not I)

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Im sure you agree with that

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin.

But NOW, APART FROM THE LAW the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify, this righteousness is given by faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:20-22

Do you understand that? According to Paul the believer has righteousness apart from not committing sin. To the rational mind of man that is a licence to sin, to Paul’s spiritual mind it is the way to have victory over sin:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law/righteousness of not committing sin, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

So which of us better understands what Paul wrote?

 

[rvmb]

BTW, as you said earlier, aren't we veering off topic here? Wouldn't you be better starting a thread on the subject?

Why would it be any different today to be placed in a saved state than in biblical times? That doesn't make any sense to me.
We all have different experiences that basically add up to the same thing. You cannot come to Christ unless the father draws you(through the Spirit) They are Jesus words.
The Spirit convicts you, you ask Christ into your life as your saviour from sin, believe it is done, you are placed in a saved state. You can tinker at the edges if you like, repentance of a life lived of sin, through conviction of the spirit, but basically that's it. If you feel Ive left something out, Im sure you'll tell me

""Why would it be any different today to be placed in a saved state than in biblical times?""
Scripture is our teacher :)
Is LAY HANDS a requirement to receive the HS today ?
All I can find is Eph 1:13, if there's a contradiction with other verses then why is that so ?

 

[Brakelite]

The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Surely you aren't suggesting that all of those laws applied only to one nation for a limited time? None of them were designed to govern humanity in general? Either kingdoms of men or the kingdom of God?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Surely you aren't suggesting that all of those laws applied only to one nation for a limited time? None of them were designed to govern humanity in general? Either kingdoms of men or the kingdom of God?

Yes, I am suggesting that. But I see your point.
Especially if by "all of those laws" you mean the 613.
Did they have broader potential use? Sure.
Was that God's intention? Not that I am aware of.

Deuteronomy 5:1-4 NIV
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today.
Learn them and be sure to follow them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant,
but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

 

[Brakelite]

Is it fair to say that you believe the Moral law is the Ten Commandments?
Also fair to say that the TCs were engraved in letters on stone? If so, the Apostle says
they are the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now.
The letter of the law kills. The Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

The apostle Paul did not say the law was transitory. That's you, not Paul. What Paul said was transitory, or as the KJV says, was done away with, was the glory. Not the law itself.

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: ”
2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV

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Not being under law is not being under justification/righteousness of obeying the law.

I think further clarification is required as what you have said here is still confusing. Let me first start some are truths that are clearly revealed in Scripture, and with which I am sure would agree.
First, as you have already said, the law itself is not done away with, but is written on our hearts and minds. (2 Cor. 3:3; Heb. 8:10)
Second, nor has the penalty for transgression... Sin... For Paul elsewhere said the wages of sin... (Transgression against the law 1 John 3:4)...is death.
Thirdly, the law, which was at one time written on tables of stone, is now written on the heart. Note that there has been no change to the law. And the law that was on stone is a whole law, unchanged, except for the location.
And finally, I would l like to address some very poor exegesis by many in an attempt to justify a change to the Ten Commandments.
Let us settle once and for all that the change to the law mentioned in Hebrews 7:11-28, has absolutely nothing to do with the law written on stone, not subsequently to that law on our hearts. The change made to the law was to accommodate a change to the Priesthood. The law was changed to allow for Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest. Hebrews 7 explains this very clearly and simply. It is laziness and/or deceit to attempt to make it mean otherwise.

So the law remains as does the penalty. It is the same Ten Commandment law now written on our hearts as that which was on stone. So what is Paul talking about when he said we are no longer under the law? Because that law is now on my heart, does that remove my obligation to obey it? Does it remove the penalty of death if I disobey? If righteousness and justification comes to us from outside the law which you accurately claim, I think we need to affirm that it is only in and through Christ that the law is written on our hearts, there is no condemnation in Christ, and that without Christ, the law remains on stone and we are hence guilty of it's transgression.

With me so far?

 

[Brakelite]

St. SteVen said:
The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Yes, I am suggesting that. But I see your point.
Especially if by "all of those laws" you mean the 613.
Did they have broader potential use? Sure.
Was that God's intention? Not that I am aware of.

Deuteronomy 5:1-4 NIV
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today.
Learn them and be sure to follow them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant,
but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

I think it very naive to believe that of all the kingdoms in the universe and throughout history, the kingdom of God is the only one without law.

 

[HealthyShape]

I think it very naive to believe that of all the kingdoms in the universe and throughout history, the kingdom of God is the only one without law.

It is without the Mosaic Law. No kingdom is given the Mosaic Law to keep, neither earthly kingdoms nor the heavenly one.

 

[Lizbeth]

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17 NIV

I see many examples of the deconstruction of the law in the New Testament. It began in the Gospel accounts and continued into the writing of the Apostle Paul.

It began with the forerunner, John the Baptizer, leading the way. "For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." - Matthew 11:13 NIV
Until John? Then what?

In Matthew chapter five, Jesus refers to the law as hearsay and challenges it. There are five "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." statements.

The most obvious examples are Jesus violating the Sabbath law. (I'll probably get lots of push-back on that) I'm not claiming that Jesus sinned.

Does anyone else see the signs I am seeing here? Let's discuss.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

]

Don't know what your definition of deconstruction is, but we always need to be careful of going beyond what is written, lest we become guilty of inventing our own religion. The bible simply isn't teaching that Jesus "deconstructed" the Law. Definition I have of deconstruction is "the reduction of something to its constituent parts in order to reinterpret or present it differently." Going by that definition I would argue that Jesus did the opposite of deconstructing....rather He consolidated the Law. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself...on this hangs all the Law and the prophets." There's an old saying that goes, "the whole of something is greater than the sum of its parts." We no longer serve in the old way of the letter of the Law but in the new way of the Spirit....and His laws are written on our hearts/conscience. Jesus taught and gave us the heart/spirit of the Law which is something greater than the letter of it.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Is it fair to say that you believe the Moral law is the Ten Commandments?
Also fair to say that the TCs were engraved in letters on stone? If so, the Apostle says
they are the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death that has no glory now.
The letter of the law kills. The Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

The apostle Paul did not say the law was transitory. That's you, not Paul. What Paul said was transitory, or as the KJV says, was done away with, was the glory. Not the law itself.

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: ”
2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV

I see your point.
In that verse it is not clear to me what is transitory.
I would say both Moses countenance and the law. Showing the similarity. (and contrast with the Spirit)
What is clear is that the ministry of the Spirit would be even more glorious than the law.
Which certainly had its considerable glory.

Why was the glory of the countenance of Moses to be done away? (transitory)
Wouldn't it fade naturally? Perhaps there is more to this than is stated?

 

[St. SteVen]

I think it very naive to believe that of all the kingdoms in the universe and throughout history, the kingdom of God is the only one without law.

Do you assume you can't have order without law?

 

[St. SteVen]

Definition I have of deconstruction is "the reduction of something to its constituent parts in order to reinterpret or present it differently." Going by that definition I would argue that Jesus did the opposite of deconstructing....rather He consolidated the Law. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself...on this hangs all the Law and the prophets."

That is deconstruction. Jesus boiled down 613 commands to two.

Look what happens when the Pharisees find Jesus (and His disciples) picking and eating grain on the Sabbath.
Food collection on the Sabbath is the most basic violation. Remember the Manna collection? (Ex.16)

Matthew 12:1-8 NIV
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him,
“Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple
desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a]
you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

We no longer serve in the old way of the letter of the Law but in the new way of the Spirit....and His laws are written on our hearts/conscience. Jesus taught and gave us the heart/spirit of the Law which is something greater than the letter of it.

I think "the spirit of the law" is not a biblical statement, it is secular, having to do with human laws. The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. The Bible says: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." - 2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV

 

[Taken]

The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament

Really Deep Topic and difficult to chart out in a forum…and clarify step by step ….
The Who, What, When, Why…

Glory to God,
Taken