Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Ronald Nolette]

Hm. Such misunderstanding. I mean, I don't disagree with all of what you say, Ronald. But... yeah, that's enough. <smile>

Well, I will say, I'm not sure why you stopped in Hebrews 4 after the first few verses. Just a few more and you would have read, "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience" (Hebrews 4:11). So, the promise of entering His rest still stands, and we will someday enter into it. But for now, as the writer of Hebrews goes on to say, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:1-2).

Grace and peace to you.

Yes while we are alive, we work, and struggle and strive against sin. but we have entered into His rest because we no longer work for salvation or righteousness. We rest for we know Christ is our righteousness and our deeds merely prove that righteousness, and we rest knowing we are eternally secure.

 

[PinSeeker]

...we have entered into His rest because we no longer work for salvation or righteousness. We rest for we know Christ is our righteousness and our deeds merely prove that righteousness, and we rest knowing we are eternally secure.

I mean, here, you're completely changing what we've been discussing, really. Goodness gracious. So, okay, yes, I agree that even now, even while we "run the race set before us," we can certainly rest in Christ, as our redemption has been accomplished, salvation has been given to us, and, yes, our future in and with Him throughout eternity is secure. But we have not entered into eternity yet and so have not entered into His eternal rest ~His eternal Sabbath ~ from the trials and tribulations of this life.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I mean, here, you're completely changing what we've been discussing, really. Goodness gracious. So, okay, yes, I agree that even now, even while we "run the race set before us," we can certainly rest in Christ, as our redemption has been accomplished, salvation has been given to us, and, yes, our future in and with Him throughout eternity is secure. But we have not entered into eternity yet and so have not entered into His eternal rest ~His eternal Sabbath ~ from the trials and tribulations of this life.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

Well according to Scripture we are already seated with Him in heavenly places.
We are dead and our life is hidden in Christ.

And the works we do are not our works but Christs' in us. So we have rested inour labors.

Are we physically in heaven yet? NO! But we have all the benefits of the kingdom now, including being at rest, even in the midst of us laboring and striving. In realith the answer is yes we are entered inot His rest sspiritually, but not Physically yet.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

First off I never called Jesus a liar

Claiming the parables of Jesus are not true = is claiming Jesus is a liar.

being tormented day and night forever, which is also in the Bible.

Jesus said they are tormented day and night forever

Those claiming this is not true are calling Jesus a liar.

The person that believes that the wicked are tormented day and night forever, must also disagree with other Bible texts.

No, those claiming Jesus is a liar are the ones misunderstanding

looks like to me there is scripture disagreement and agreement for both. What would you say?

I say God is not a liar and as such He does not contradict Himself in His Word

The problem is some people are listening to the devil by reading commentaries written by servants of the devil who falsely present themselves as Christian so called "theologians"

These people are the tares Jesus warned us about

the soul and the body are both destroyed in hell

Destroyed in hell as in forsaken and separated from God spending all eternity being tormented in the place created for satan and his demons because these people are of their father the devil and receive the same sentence the devil gets.

God created man in His own Image so man can never stop being consciously aware and awake since God made man to be an eternal being just like Himself.

Everything produces after it's own kind because God built His Kingdom upon seedtime and harvest according to Jesus

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Seedtime and harvest is the operating system of the Kingdom of God. It's how God's Kingdom functions

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap is in line with Genesis 1:11

This is also ttrue with God because He decided to build His Kingdom on seedtime and harvest so when He said He made man in His Own image then this means He made man like Himself. He never ceases to exist, and neither will man.

So for man, it's a matter of WHERE he will be spending eternity - either with the Lord in His Kingdom where things are good and there's no darkness or evil, or in hell separated from God being tortured along side satan and all his demons

 

[walter]

Claiming the parables of Jesus are not true = is claiming Jesus is a liar.

Jesus also said if your hand or your eye makes you stumble cut off your hand and rip out your eye. [ Is this Jesus lying? Or was Jesus using extreme hyperbole (exaggeration) to emphasize the severity of sin? ]

Is recognizing Jesus sometimes talks figuratively or in metaphors, claiming that Jesus is a liar?

 

[walter]

Whatsoever

obviously you like to argue over words and sentences and whatever you can find, I myself like to learn what people believe and the scriptures that support that belief. That's it!

You are wasting your time with me, I care very little about people's explanations, what I care about is the explanations that are in the Bible, not the explanations from you or me!

 

[PinSeeker]

Well according to Scripture we are already seated with Him in heavenly places.
We are dead and our life is hidden in Christ.

In the Spirit, yes, and in the same way, He is with us. But eternity, the age to come, is not here yet, Ronald.

And the works we do are not our works but Christs' in us.

Sure, but not relevant to what is being discussed here, Ronald.

In reality the answer is yes we are entered into His rest sspiritually, but not Physically yet.

Right. If this is what you've been trying to say all along, then good for you in finally getting that out, Ronald. <smile>

You're a hard one to figure out, Ronald. This has been very laborious. I'm so tired, and in need of some rest. See what I did there? <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[ProDeo]

God's foreknowing, as it is used in the Bible ~ by Paul in Romans 8:29 in particular ~ is not just a cognitive foreseeing or a "looking forward into the future and seeing who will choose Him." In that case, one's salvation would not really depend on God but upon Himself, which is directly contradictory to Romans 9:16. As Paul says there, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." To foreknow someone is to fore-love and even to fore-choose them... in God's case to designate them as His own ~ one of His elect ~ before that person has even come to be. One does not predestine himself or herself to be conformed to the image of Christ. God does that.

At the very least, ProDeo, in saying "those whom He foreknew," Paul is obviously talking about not the whole of humanity but only a group smaller than the whole. If we think of this foreknowing as mere knowing beforehand, well in that sense, God foreknows every human being in the whole of humanity in all of time. But again, Paul is talking about a group of people less than the whole of humanity, so the foreknowing that he speaks of has to be something different than mere knowing ahead of time. You see?

Grace and peace to you, ProDeo.

Thanks for feedback, two things:

1. I am missing your comments on the Scriptures I posted :

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

We also know Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8

We also know the book of life was written from the foundation of the world -- Revelation 17:8 among others.

Meaning, the Lord God knew everything in advance before He even created Adam and Eve.

2. How do you understand Romans 9:16, the passage you used?

Me : as in Jos 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Meaning Romans 9:16 should be understood man has a choice.

And then it becomes difficult I know.

Maybe something for a followup.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Jesus also said if your hand or your eye makes you stumble cut off your hand and rip out your eye. [ Is this Jesus lying? Or was Jesus using extreme hyperbole (exaggeration) to emphasize the severity of sin? ]

Is recognizing Jesus sometimes talks figuratively or in metaphors, claiming that Jesus is a liar?

That was not a metaphor

It actually would be better to lose an eye or a hand rather than spending eternity in hell.

If that's the only way a person can stop sinning is to pluck out their eye or chop their hand off to avoid going to hell then it would be better for them to do so

If a person dies to self and abides in Christ they can stop living in sin without chopping off body parts

You are wasting your time with me

Yeah, those that have been deceived by the devil in to believing God lies sometimes are actually a waste of time.

 

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for feedback, two things:

1. I am missing your comments on the Scriptures I posted :

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

We also know Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8

We also know the book of life was written from the foundation of the world -- Revelation 17:8 among others.

Meaning, the Lord God knew everything in advance before He even created Adam and Eve.

To all these things, yes, as I said, God knows everything in advance of its happening. No one disputes that, I think/hope. But when we speak of God's "those whom God foreknew" as Paul refers to them in Romans 8:29, this foreknowing is in a very different sense. And I was very clear about that in my previous post. If you want to comment on that, then you certainly may do so.

2. How do you understand Romans 9:16, the passage you used?

Me : as in Jos 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Meaning Romans 9:16 should be understood man has a choice.

Romans 9:16 says nothing about whether man has/makes a choice or not, and actually strongly implies that man absolutely does have a choice and the capability of making it and makes it, one way or the other. But, in speaking of God's elect, as Paul does there in Romans 9, and any one person's becoming/being a member of God's elect, he is crystal clear that one's being one of God's elect does not depend on man in any way, including making that choice or not. He is crystal clear on the fact that it depends ~ depends ~ only on God's having mercy and compassion on that person... or not. Quoting again:

"...God’s purpose of election... (God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:13-18).​

And then it becomes difficult I know.

It really does not. But it can be difficult to accept; I certainly get that.

Maybe something for a followup.

Suit yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Berean]

Personally, I believe this is literal because it fits with other NT theology....
for instance, the torn curtain at the death of Jesus in Matthew 27:51...
it is commonly accepted that at this time the gates of heaven were opened and not before this time.
Before this time persons waited in "Abraham's Bossom" in hades, in the place mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16.

And it couldn't have just been an earthquake? Chapter 28:2 mentioned an earthquake at his resurrection.

The meaning should have been obvious to the religious leaders who witnessed it. Hebrews 9:11—10:22 goes into detail about how Jesus' death on the cross opened the way for anyone to approach God through faith in Him. The Jewish sacrificial system that God established for Israel is no longer needed. The ultimate and final sacrifice for sin, which is Jesus Himself, has been made. In both a spiritual and literal way, the barrier between humanity and God has been taken away—by God Himself.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Read your bible, the books I specified , MAtt, John,Luke, Mark. You really need to follow Christ who is one with God, you probably do not remember this but Christ was given full autority in heaven and on Earth, just ponder on this ans what it means! and do as he asks!
its all I have to say to you for now so stop complaining and start listening to what some good people say to you here also consider that according to you everyone here has a false theology, this should indicate to you that you have a problem and that you are certainly wrong. all of us cannot be wrong. do not bother replying to complain but I will answer if you have a specific question about the gospel of Jesus the son of God.

Just two questions, first which one of the 49,000 opposing Christian denominational interpretations should I choose to interpret Matt, John, Luke and Mark.

I really want to follow Christ, but I need to decipher the bible code. If I don't find the right code breaker (correct interpretation), I will end up believing that Christ taught cannibalism, hatred for my family, self mutilation (plucking out my right eye) etc etc....

can you see the problem with reading the bible, without having access to a reliable code breaker.

The other question I have is, do you believe that the Lord Jesus taught His followers to follow the crowd, or to follow Him. Just asking since you reckon there's safety in numbers, by saying everyone is against me. But remember, everyone, including His disciples and His family were against the Lord Jesus.

So you're welcome to follow the blind crowd, but I will keep following my Lord and Saviour, thank you very much.

 

[Christian Soldier]

With a little more study outside of Calvinism, you might understand the above texts. None of them show the predestination of anyone as a believer. Ephesians 1:4-5 shows that it is the elect who are IN Christ that where predestined to be saved through the means God uses to save individuals. Ephesians 1P:11 also states the very same thng and even clearly shows man's agency is necessary in vs 12. "Those who first trusted, not were predestined to believe/trusted. Vs 13 continues in the same context. Your problem is that you have gone along with the errors of Calvin who lifted texts out of context first, then assigns his own interpretation to them. Rom 9:11, 15,16 shows precisely one of the examples I gave of 5 uses of predestination in scripture, And your statement that it was based on purpose, nol works and anything man did. Here are the examples again. Christ, Isreal, the elect, His Body, the Apostles, and Paul.
The citing of Rom 8P:29 explains God's sovereign plan. Because of His foreknowledge God knows who would believe, thus it says He foreknew, those He foreknew He predestined them to be saved through sanctification and faith, All men are called to believe, to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.. We are justified by faith, Paul states this many times. Those tat remain faithful to the end will be glorified.
That is the plan of salvation. There is never a mention that one is predestined to believe, it is all about man's free agency working with God within the means He established. One enters His Kingdom by baptism which is also called "regeneration". Why is that word used for baptism? Because it places us IN Christ. or in a relationship with God, the same relationship Adam had with God in the beginning. It is regenerating a relationship.

Either a misunderstanding of what I stated, or just another strawman. None stated that man elects himself to salvation.

Some need strawmen, innuendos, and false assumptions just so they don't need to explain a view that history has long debunked even within Protestant denominations. History shows that the Calvinist system did not exist until the 16th century, hardly Biblical from the beginning. As this discussion has clearly shown there is a vast difference between what the Bible has meant and what Calvinism means superimposed upon scripture. The fact that you cannot show it is NOT a man-made theory speaks loudly regarding its authenticity.

With a little more study outside of Arminianism, you might understand the above texts. All of them show the predestination of all believers.

Ephesians 1:4-5 shows that the elect were all predestined to be saved through the means of God electing each individual and writing their names in the His book of life before time began.
Ephesians 1P:11 also states the very same thing and even clearly shows man's total inability vs 12. "Those who were first elected, were given the gift of faith to trust in the Lord Jesus. Vs 13 continues in the same context.

Your problem is that you have gone along with the errors of Jacob Arminius, who lifted texts out of context first, then assigns his own interpretation to them. Rom 9:11, 15,16 shows precisely one of the examples I gave of 5 Points of Calvin T.U.L.I.P uses of predestination in scripture, And your statement that it was based on works and everything man did.

The citing of Rom 8P:29 explains God's sovereign in election of those He chose to save before time began. Election had nothing to do with with God looking into the future. Because God knows that all men are equally wicked and all deserve hell, but the elect are justified by the gift of grace through the gift of faith, (lest any man boast) as you do. Paul states this many times. Those whom God elected onto salvation remain faithful to the end will be glorified.

That is the plan of salvation. There is never a mention of man having free will or the ability to choose to believe. It's all about Gods choice and nothing to do with mans choice in anything.
God regenerates His elect from their state of (dead in sin). Then we are given the gift of faith and repentance. Then we are converted and receive the Holy Spirit, then we make a public profession of faith and an Ordained Minister baptises us in ordianry water. This is a symbolic Church ordinance, baptism doesn't save anyone nor is it magic or witchcraft.

Regeneration has nothing to do with baptism, baptism is done by an ordinary man, regeneration (quickened to life from the dead) is something that only God can do, No man can wake up the dead, I k
now your hero Jacob Arminius believes that sinners can resurrect themselves through the pouring water on the head of a reprobate.

You Arminian's need strawmen, innuendos, and false assumptions just so you don't need to explain a view that history has long debunked even within Protestant denominations. History shows that the Arminian system did not exist until the 16th century, hardly Biblical from the beginning. As this discussion has clearly shown there is a vast difference between what the Bible has meant and what Arminian's mean by superimposing their false interpretation upon scripture. The fact that you cannot show it is NOT a man-made theory speaks loudly regarding its authenticity.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Hi CS, I am new to the discussion, 250 pages, maybe everything what I have to say is already said, but here goes...



Allow me to give you another perspective about this hard to understand topic.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

We also know Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8

We also know the book of life was written from the foundation of the world -- Revelation 17:8 among others.

Meaning, the Lord God knew everything in advance before He even created Adam and Eve.

1. Adam and Eve were predestined to fall, not because that was God's will, but because He foreknew.

2. Jesus was predestined to descend from heaven, become human and die for the sins of the world, reconcile what went wrong in Eden. Not because God had any pleasure sacrificing the most precious He had (Jesus) but because He loved us after all (John 3:16-17) and because He decided that Jesus was predestined to die on a cross because He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. All that from the foundation of the world

3. The book of life is already written from the foundation of the world, because God foreknows how you and me and everybody else will end, it is predestined.

It only has to be played out, which is why we are here now.

We need to take into consideration, the fact that God is a mystery and we will never understand His ways, because they are past finding out.

So attempting to compartmentalize "predestination" "election to salvation" and "foreknowledge" is a futile exercise. God has never revealed why He chose some for salvation and left others condemned.

Romans 9:20-21 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’". "Has the potter no right over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?".

Yes we also know the Lord Jesus was slain from the foundation, but that's from Gods perspective, because He sees the whole of time from the begging to the end all at the same time because He is outside of time and He is outside of our realm.
So we hit a brick wall when we try to put ourselves in His shoes, and interpret an infinitely wise God with our finite puny minds.

God has only revealed a small snippet of the big picture to believers, through he Bible and even that small snippet has caused the "Church to disintegrate into 49,000 denominations, all arguing and pushing their view as the only correct view in town.

Gods chosen people are not ready to receive anymore revelations, we can't even deal with what He has revealed, let alone heaping more on our plate.

So, from our point of view, the Lord was not slain until the year 33 AD, but from Gods omnipresent view, He was slain before the foundation of the world. In the same way everyone who was saved, and is being saved today and those who are yet to be born are all saved already in Gods economy. But it's impossible for us to understand how God works all things for his glory.

The end of the world has already come to pass in God view, He knows exactly how world events will come about, because as you rightly said, it is all predestined.
Yes and God did predestine Adam to sin, because He had already prepared the Lord Jesus to atone for the sins of His people, before Adam was created.

Everything in the universe is exactly as God preordained it to be, nothing can happen outside of His will.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

In the book of Exodus, God repeatedly commands Pharaoh to let His people go, while also declaring His intention to harden Pharaoh's heart. The narrative presents this as a complementary truth demonstrating both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

The Bible details instances where both God and Pharaoh are said to harden Pharaoh's heart. Key verses in the include God stating His intention to harden Pharaoh's heart in
Exodus 4:21

Romans 9:17-18 also speaks of God having mercy on whom He wills and hardening whom He wills.
.

 

[ProDeo]

To all these things, yes, as I said, God knows everything in advance of its happening. No one disputes that, I think/hope. But when we speak of God's "those whom God foreknew" as Paul refers to them in Romans 8:29, this foreknowing is in a very different sense. And I was very clear about that in my previous post. If you want to comment on that, then you certainly may do so.


Romans 9:16 says nothing about whether man has/makes a choice or not, and actually strongly implies that man absolutely does have a choice and the capability of making it and makes it, one way or the other. But, in speaking of God's elect, as Paul does there in Romans 9, and any one person's becoming/being a member of God's elect, he is crystal clear that one's being one of God's elect does not depend on man in any way, including making that choice or not. He is crystal clear on the fact that it depends ~ depends ~ only on God's having mercy and compassion on that person... or not. Quoting again:

"...God’s purpose of election... (God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:13-18).​

It really does not. But it can be difficult to accept; I certainly get that.


Suit yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

I once believed what you believe and what I now believe did not come overnight, it's complex.

2Petr 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Petr 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

And we are not making progress, let's consider some logic and get some possible agreement what Paul is saying in his letter to the Romans. I think we are going to agree that Paul did not contradict himself what he wrote in chapter 1, with what he wrote in chapter 9 and in chapter 11, it all has to fit.

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

versus :

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

So, is Paul contradicting himself? Of course not, so what is he talking about in 9:15-18?

It's about people who become reprobate in God's eyes, Pharaoh as one of the examples, reprobates as defined in chapter 1.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

When does one become a reprobate or a vessel of wrath ?

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

One does not become a vessel of wrath so easily, the Lord has given Pharaoh much time to repent before the Lord God decided to use him to make known his power.

For whom ?

It's in the next verse.

Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Pharaoh was not innocent.

Rom 9:15-18 may read as randomness, it is not.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Just two questions, first which one of the 49,000 opposing Christian denominational interpretations should I choose to interpret Matt, John, Luke and Mark.

I really want to follow Christ, but I need to decipher the bible code. If I don't find the right code breaker (correct interpretation), I will end up believing that Christ taught cannibalism, hatred for my family, self mutilation (plucking out my right eye) etc etc....

can you see the problem with reading the bible, without having access to a reliable code breaker.

The other question I have is, do you believe that the Lord Jesus taught His followers to follow the crowd, or to follow Him. Just asking since you reckon there's safety in numbers, by saying everyone is against me. But remember, everyone, including His disciples and His family were against the Lord Jesus.

So you're welcome to follow the blind crowd, but I will keep following my Lord and Saviour, thank you very much.

why do you need to belong to a demination, why choose one in particular, why not just follow the words if Jesus, is he not the cornerstone of the church? about Jesus, except fot his parables, his words are clear, for the parables, I know their meaning so just ask me if you need. Jesus followers followed him and him only, he is the one we look up to and no one else. only Judas was against Christ,and perhaps one of siblings that is all. the jews were against him and rejected him but there were divisions also there some did believe.

 

[Rightglory]

With a little more study outside of Arminianism, you might understand the above texts. All of them show the predestination of all believers.

Ephesians 1:4-5 shows that the elect were all predestined to be saved through the means of God electing each individual and writing their names in the His book of life before time began.
Ephesians 1P:11 also states the very same thing and even clearly shows man's total inability vs 12. "Those who were first elected, were given the gift of faith to trust in the Lord Jesus. Vs 13 continues in the same context.

Your problem is that you have gone along with the errors of Jacob Arminius, who lifted texts out of context first, then assigns his own interpretation to them. Rom 9:11, 15,16 shows precisely one of the examples I gave of 5 Points of Calvin T.U.L.I.P uses of predestination in scripture, And your statement that it was based on works and everything man did.

The citing of Rom 8P:29 explains God's sovereign in election of those He chose to save before time began. Election had nothing to do with with God looking into the future. Because God knows that all men are equally wicked and all deserve hell, but the elect are justified by the gift of grace through the gift of faith, (lest any man boast) as you do. Paul states this many times. Those whom God elected onto salvation remain faithful to the end will be glorified.

That is the plan of salvation. There is never a mention of man having free will or the ability to choose to believe. It's all about Gods choice and nothing to do with mans choice in anything.
God regenerates His elect from their state of (dead in sin). Then we are given the gift of faith and repentance. Then we are converted and receive the Holy Spirit, then we make a public profession of faith and an Ordained Minister baptises us in ordianry water. This is a symbolic Church ordinance, baptism doesn't save anyone nor is it magic or witchcraft.

Regeneration has nothing to do with baptism, baptism is done by an ordinary man, regeneration (quickened to life from the dead) is something that only God can do, No man can wake up the dead, I k
now your hero Jacob Arminius believes that sinners can resurrect themselves through the pouring water on the head of a reprobate.

You Arminian's need strawmen, innuendos, and false assumptions just so you don't need to explain a view that history has long debunked even within Protestant denominations. History shows that the Arminian system did not exist until the 16th century, hardly Biblical from the beginning. As this discussion has clearly shown there is a vast difference between what the Bible has meant and what Arminian's mean by superimposing their false interpretation upon scripture. The fact that you cannot show it is NOT a man-made theory speaks loudly regarding its authenticity.

You are a joke. Nice parody though.
You work very hard to keep from explaining just how all your contradictions of scripture work. By the way Arminius is in the same boat as Calvin on several issues as well. His view in many respects are much different from Calvinism, but he is still a man and his personal view has no more validity than Calvin's.
I understand your dilemma since within early Protestantism, the idea of the solas was developed. Its premise was that the freedom of the individual conscience was paramount. Thus when a protestant studies scripture what he develops in his mind as the meaning is his truth. Which is how there can be thousands of truths. It is mind boggling to actually understand such nonsense especially when they claim the name of the Holy Spirit is the cause of all these truths. It is a gross misunderstanding of the work of the Holy Spirit to say the least.

But carry on,
Happy New Year

 

[PinSeeker]

I once believed what you believe and what I now believe did not come overnight...

Well that's quite ironic; I would say the exact same thing to you.

it's complex.

It's really not. As I said, difficult to accept, maybe, but not so "complex."

2Petr 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Petr 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

This is neither here nor there, really, but misunderstanding this or that in Scripture does not necessarily mean someone is ignorant, or unstable, or intentionally "twisting" anything in Scripture.

And we are not making progress...

Is that the case? Or is it rather that you are not making "progress" in persuading me to accept your point of view? Like I said, I once believe as you do on the particular subject under consideration...

...let's consider some logic....

<chuckles> Okay, sure! Logic is good... <smile>

I think we are going to agree that Paul did not contradict himself what he wrote in chapter 1, with what he wrote in chapter 9 and in chapter 11, it all has to fit.

Absolutely. And, as I'm sure you'll agree, it all does. Along with all his other letters, right? And Peter's... and all of Scripture. Absolutely.

When does one become a reprobate or a vessel of wrath ?

A great question. <smile> I mean really, yes, that is a great, great question. <smile>

One does not become a vessel of wrath so easily, the Lord has given Pharaoh much time to repent before the Lord God decided to use him to make known his power.

Answer your own question, ProDeo. When does one become "reprobate," a "vessel of wrath?" You might remember what this same Paul writes in Romans 5:12 and to the Ephesians in Ephesians 2:1-3... To ask it another way, when does one become ~ prior to being born again of the Holy Spirit, if that happens ~ a "child of wrath?" I mean, the answer is in that very verse, Ephesians 2:3 (as well as Romans 5:12). So... when does that become a reality for any human being who has ever lived (after Adam, and except for Jesus, of course). When? <smile>

Rom 9:15-18 may read as randomness, it is not.

We most certainly, absolutely agree on this. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, ProDeo.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the Spirit, yes, and in the same way, He is with us. But eternity, the age to come, is not here yet, Ronald.

I agree. So though we have His rest, we work for the kingdom.

Right. If this is what you've been trying to say all along, then good for you in finally getting that out, Ronald. <smile>

You're a hard one to figure out, Ronald. This has been very laborious. I'm so tired, and in need of some rest. See what I did there? <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

Well I did say it but in a verbally tortuoius way. My apologies. So my brother pin, find rest on this thread!

 

[ProDeo]

Answer your own question, ProDeo. When does one become "reprobate," a "vessel of wrath?" You might remember what this same Paul writes in Romans 5:12 and to the Ephesians in Ephesians 2:1-3... To ask it another way, when does one become ~ prior to being born again of the Holy Spirit, if that happens ~ a "child of wrath?" I mean, the answer is in that very verse, Ephesians 2:3 (as well as Romans 5:12). So... when does that become a reality for any human being who has ever lived (after Adam, and except for Jesus, of course). When? <smile>

Certainly not at birth.

We may become a reprobate (Rom 1) or a vessel of wrath (Rom 9) when God's patience has endured (Rom 9:22)

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Are we all sinners?, of course.

Grace and peace to you, ProDeo.

Amen and blessings.