Is it possible to lose salvation?

[GodsGrace]

You are correct in that scripture actually uses several metaphors to describe atonement. The problem arises when one chooses one metaphor and makes it the definition of atonement.
Christus Victor is the understanding of the early Church, and the Patristics.

Understood.
This would be like Calvinists insisting that the Penal Substitution Theory is correct, and only that one.

I like the Cristus Victor theory...
also the Moral Influence Theory
The Ransome theory are my favorite but I also can accept the Satisfaction Theory...
IOW a just God had to have man's sinful nature paid for in order to be able to forgive mankind.

Thanks!

 

[Rightglory]

Your theology is very strange, I've never come across these theories you hold to. They don't make any sense because there isn't a single verse in the Bible which supports your theories.

First of all "Predestination" is not a concept, it's actually a Bible doctrine. There are around a 120 verses of scripture which confirm this. There is not enough space here for me to list every one of them, so you got off on the wrong foot by denying Gods Word.

It is not a doctrine of scripture. It is a doctrine of Calvinism only. My concordance only lists three forms or uses of the word predestinate. And none state that God predestined anyone to salvation.

God did predestine His chosen people (the elect of God), to salvation. That is not a concept but it is a Bible doctrine. So you're dead wrong again >>>>>> 2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Which part of "chosen you from the beginning for salvation" don't you understand. I'd recommend you join a bible class for beginners, so you can at least get the basic fundamentals. That way you won't embarrass yourself every time I expose your false doctrines.

To become an elect one must first believe and be baptized. This puts one in Christ or in His Kingdom, a member of His Church, the elect. It is these elect that are chosen to be given salvation, not by election, but through sanctification and Faith. In an earlier post to you I stated there were five instances of election in scripture. The Body of Christ, the elect is one of those instances.
I understand you are having difficulty understanding scripture outside of the perameters of Calvinism. This is the case for all man-made theories.
In your case, you apparently don't really understand predestination either. If one was actually predestined to believe then the rest of this text is superfluous and meaningless.

Nobody has ever claimed that God chose anyone for condemnation, that's another one of your twisted theories. You don't even know what Calvin believed, but your quick to make up lies about him.

This is what all Calvinists state. However, I used the phrase "by default". By not choosing is choosing. Your doctrine precludes any kind of judgement as well. If one is chosen, elected as saved, and all others by default are condemned, why would there be a judgement?
Your theology and understanding of scripture is not consistent.

Calvin never taught that God creates people who never change. That's another one of your false allegations, the truth is Calvin taught the we not only change but we change totally so there's nothing left of the person we once were. God does all the work of changing His elect and saving us, all we contribute is a filthy stinking corpse.

So, you don't actually believe in Predestination of someone to be a believer. Predestination does not allow for change. It is a static concept which is why it does not fit scripture. This is another example of Calvin's inconsistency of scripture. The other tenets of Calvinism are consistent with each other, but not to scripture.
If man is totally depraved and has no agency, then it is logical that God would need to select/elect one, thus limited atonement, which is an impossibility within scripture, and irresistable grace and perseveance very neatly follow, all under the umbrella of predestination. But you cannot use scripture where man has free agency since is violates predestination.

Gods people don't remain totally depraved, we become perfect and sinless, we become like Christ. So get your facts right before you make up nonsense like these false accusations.

Explain how this is done under the concept of predestination. It is a static state of being, cannot change. If one is elected a believer, he is a believer and nothing else is necessary. Bible does not ever state man becomes sinless. That will only happen in the eschoton.
If you had stated the God predestined those that believe, the elect, to work with them toward their salvation you would be correct. But that little word "IN" stumped Calvin.

The elect of God cannot change a single aspect of our predestination, every single one of us will respond in faith to the gospel, and we will be born again, and we will be sanctified and transformed into he image of Christ. Those whom God did not chose for salvation remain in their condemned state, with no hope of salvation.

Again. your mixing, and totally misunderstanding what predestination of someone to be a believer. None of what you say above could follow. It follows ONLY if man is a free agent, and accepts God's universal call to repentance and belief in Him. Man is not unilaterally transformed into the image of Christ. That is a mutual, cooperative relationship, of love. Again does not align with predestination.
Do you realize that you believe man will be exterminated upon death for those that did not believe, or in your case elected? Our Adamic state after the curse of death was given to Adam was absolute. If not for Christ's Incarnation, death and resurrection, we, the world would simply succumb to death, nonexistence, There would be no heaven or hell. There would have been no eternity. Why do you think Christ came in the first place? If He did not defeat death, there is nothing else that remains. Yet you hold to limited atonement which is an impossibility with an Incarnated Christ who bore our human nature. All men have the same nature, or are you going to deny that as well, to stay within Calvinism?

To claim that mission work is useless for Calvinists, again shows your ignorance. We believe what God said about preaching the gospel to every creature. The preaching of the gospel is Gods means of saving His elect, this is why He raises up Shepherds to gather the lost sheep like myself.
Nobody ever claimed that Gods elect just sit back and do nothing, because we are already saved. No, we go and preach the gospel to every creature, because we don't know who the elect are so we preach the gospel to everyone.

Your mixing predestination again with man's free agency. This is why your theology is inconsistent. You want both worlds, Calvinism and scripture as it actually means. Let me ask you, Why would you need to know who the elect are? God knows and they were all elected as believers. Your mission work would accomplish nothing.

You last point is another denial of Gods Word, Adam was the only one who was under the "Covenant of the Law", (in other words it's your ("saved by works") version of the gospel. So you have failed to understand that, everyone after Adam is under the "Covenant of Grace" (saved by no works).

That fits presestination again. It does not fit scripture. It is all about works. You are very confused on this issue. Man's judgement is not on whether he was elected, It is on his works, works of righteousness. Rom 2:6-8 and Rev 20: 11-13. Per scripture, we are being saved through our faith. If we lose faith, reject so great a salvation, or work to maintain one's faith is the difference. We don't get salvation until the end, those who hold the concept of "losing salvation" cannot be a scriptural teaching, I Pet 1:3-5. Its not a guarantee, but a hope.

You're obviously mixing the two and creating a non existent hybrid covenant which God never made and man never entered into.

Everyone after Adam was saved by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus, for the remission of their sin. So Abraham is a born again Christian, so is Moses, so is David (the murdering adulterer) "see even born again Christians are forgiven for sins like murder and adultery and every other type of sin. There is no sin that God doesn't forgive His elect.

The above statement shows you no longer believe in predestination. That is good. You even have man with free agency. Great. Anyone is forgiven of their sins, However not arbitrarily, but only upon repentance or confession. There is nothing automatic except I would assume under predestination it does not matter, you are already saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen! 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant but not as the Mosaic Law repackaged. The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the letter of the law. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.

The command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 2:7
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

And these are because they are New TEstament commands and not part of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That does not invalidate in anyway the distinctions; they are what they are. They're just general categories, Ronald, that's all. The civil and ceremonial laws do not apply to us anymore, because we have a "better law" ~ Christ, of course. But the moral laws are absolutely still in effect, which really can be summed up in one word: love.

The ten commandments written in stone are a ministry of death. so live under them and get death. they were given to Israel and israel alone. We live showing our righteousness which is Jesus by the commands found in teh NT.

No, that will be when we in eternity, the age to come. It will be when Jesus tells each one of us at the final Judgment, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master" (Matthew 25:21).

Wrong!

ebrews 4

King James Version

​

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Thast rest is 3 is the present middle indictive. We have entered into His rest.

Not directly in the New Testament, no, but the Sabbath Day is now the Lord's Day, so at least indirectly, the fourth commandment absolutely applies. There is, however, as I said, an exhortation to not neglect the gathering of the saints, as is the habit of some (Hebrews 10:25), which is done properly on the first day of the week, the Lord's Day.

That is hooey. No where either directly or indirectly did God move the Sabbath from the 7th to the first day of the week! That is a man made thing.

Fulfillment and abolishment are two very different things, Ronald. Yes, He fulfilled the law, but he did not abolish it, even according to His own words... that He came not to abolish it but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17).

And as Paul said we are no longer under the law! He also said the ten commandments are a ministry of death.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So, you take this parable literally? Oh my!

So you accuse Jesus of being a liar? Oh my!

I agree, when Jesus spoke in public he only spoke in Parables, and these are Jesus words about when he speaks in Parables..

Jesus said "a certain rich man" (Luke 16:19-31) so the account of the rich man and Lazarus was about two actual people and what happens to all people when they die under the OT in that they etther go to Abraham;'s Boosom being considered saved or they go to hell like the rich man being considered not saved.

It's sad that the devil has deceived the slow ones in to believing Jesus is a liar.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Sadly, there was nothing clear, or simple and there was nothing to learn from in your reply. All you have offered is a bunch of incoherent doctrinal views which are inconsistent with any scripture. You're still trying to mix the "saved by works" version of the gospel, with the "saved by grace" gospel.

I have never ever come across a single verse of scripture that supports your version of the gospel. The Bible is clear and simple and you could learn from it if you had the gift of discernment. The Bible says "we are saved by grace", I'm not sure why you don't believe this, but I can only assume that it's because you have been indoctrinated with the false "works based gospel", which gives you something to boast about.

The Lord will not share His glory with you or anyone else, so please don't try to claim a stake in Gods work of salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, it's not of the Lord + your works. You are not saved by obedience, you won't find a single verse in the bible to support this false gospel view.

I'm not sure where you got the notion that God's elect, have permission to ignore obedience. And I have no idea why you would say that the Lord Jesus never taught that obedience is optional or meaningless. Nobody has ever suggested anything so silly.

I have never come across anything in the bible to support this idea that obedience flows from abiding in the Lord Jesus. This suggests that "abiding in Him" is a work and that goes back to your saved by works theory.

I never chose to abide in Christ, I was His enemy and I hated everything about Him. He had to leave His high and holy station in heaven to come into the world and suffer unimaginable torture save me.
So I'm not sure why you're suggesting that anyone is saved by abiding in Him.

You completely missed the reason why the rich young ruler was condemned to hell, it was because he attempted to mix his works (filthy rags) with the Lords immaculate garments.
The young man, claimed that he can be saved by keeping the commandments, just as you claim. But Jesus exposed his false gospel by showing him that it's impossible to be saved by keeping the commandments because they are impossible to keep.

I'm not sure if you Minister ever told you the truth about the human condition, where mankind's sin nature makes it impossible to keep a single commandment. That's why our best efforts to keep the commandments are as filthy stinking rags in God sight, They are an abomination in His sight. They were a stench in His nostrils, under the old covenant and they stink even more under the new covenant.

Every single one of Gods elect, sins every single day. We always have and we always will while we are in this world. This is why the Lord Jesus paid for every one of our past, present and future sins. So your hybrid version of the gospel, simply doesn't work and it is an abomination in Gods sight.
If we attempt to add our works to the finished work of Christ, then it's an abomination.

Nobody is suggesting that Gods elect have a free pass to surrender and serve their sin, lust and desires. That is not how us born again believers live. No, our life is a wrestling match and a race. We don't win every battle but we win the race.

I let you go in peace, I did all I could but you refuse to listen so be it, however if you have specific questions on Jesus please ask just know all i said is true and if you take the time to really read and understand Matthew, John, Luke and Mark and you really need to, you will understand all I wrote to you.

 

[walter]

Every word Jesus spoke is rubbish to the unconverted natural man, but every word in the Bible is true to those of us who are saved.
If you don't believe this, then you don't believe what God has said about it. I can bury you with a truck load of verses , to confirm this. You won't be able to wiggle your way out with throw away lines.

2 Timothy 3:16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness,

John 17:17
New International Version
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Romans 15:4
Berean Standard Bible
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

 

[walter]

It's sad that the devil has deceived the slow ones in to believing Jesus is a liar.

First off I never called Jesus a liar, I was just pointing out that Jesus says Parables sometimes are not understood but he reveals things to the disciples in private.

I think this is probably the hardest subject to prove, because when one person believes that the wicked are destroyed and they don't get life in the first place, they vanish and disappear, this agrees with the Bible throughout but disagrees with being tormented day and night forever, which is also in the Bible.

The person that believes that the wicked are tormented day and night forever, must also disagree with other Bible texts.

So with whatever decision a person makes it looks like to me there is scripture disagreement and agreement for both. What would you say?


* I can post the scriptures that show that the wicked are: to be cut off, like a dream he flies away, no more to be found, banished like a vision of the night, to disappear like smoke nowhere to be found, to perish, will not get life, be destroyed, the soul and the body are both destroyed in hell, indeed, the lamp of the wicked is extinguished, but even with all this the Bible says, it still says: they will be tormented day and night forever.

 

[PinSeeker]

The ten commandments written in stone are a ministry of death. so live under them and get death. they were given to Israel and israel alone. We live showing our righteousness which is Jesus by the commands found in teh NT.

Wrong!

ebrews 4​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Thast rest is 3 is the present middle indictive. We have entered into His rest.

That is hooey. No where either directly or indirectly did God move the Sabbath from the 7th to the first day of the week! That is a man made thing.

And as Paul said we are no longer under the law! He also said the ten commandments are a ministry of death.

Hm. Such misunderstanding. I mean, I don't disagree with all of what you say, Ronald. But... yeah, that's enough. <smile>

Well, I will say, I'm not sure why you stopped in Hebrews 4 after the first few verses. Just a few more and you would have read, "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience" (Hebrews 4:11). So, the promise of entering His rest still stands, and we will someday enter into it. But for now, as the writer of Hebrews goes on to say, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:1-2).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The Bible does speak about God choosing people, but the strong word “predestined” is used mainly by Paul. The idea itself is older and wider than Paul, but it is spoken in a simpler way by Jesus, His disciples, and the Old Testament. Jesus never uses the word predestined. Instead, He speaks about the Father drawing people, about people being given to Him, and about the elect. In John 6:44 and John 6:65 Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father allows it. In John 15:16 He says that He chose His disciples, and in Matthew 22:14 He says that many are called but few are chosen. Yet Jesus always joins this choosing with hearing, believing, following, and obeying. He never teaches that people are saved by fate without response.

Peter and the other apostles speak in the same way. In Acts 2:23 Peter says that Jesus was delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God. In 1 Peter 1:1–2 he speaks of believers as chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge means that God knows beforehand, not that He forces people against their will. Peter also says in 2 Peter 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This shows that God’s knowledge does not cancel the call for people to repent and respond.

Paul is the one who clearly uses the word “predestined,” especially in Romans 8:29–30 and Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11. Even there, predestination is always connected to being “in Christ.” God predestines what the goal is, to be conformed to the image of His Son, to be holy, and to be adopted as children. Paul does not describe random selection with no obedience, but a path God prepared for those who are in Christ.

The Old Testament also speaks of God choosing people and nations. God chose Israel in Deuteronomy 7:6–8, yet He also told them to choose life in Deuteronomy 30:19. God knew Jeremiah before he was born in Jeremiah 1:5, yet Jeremiah still had to listen and obey. God’s choosing is always joined with responsibility.

Taken together, the whole Bible shows that God calls and chooses, and humans are still told to hear, repent, believe, obey, and follow. Predestination as a word appears mainly in Paul, but the teaching of God’s foreknowledge and calling belongs to all Scripture, and it never removes the call to choose life and walk in God’s ways.

Nice try, but your hybrid team effort version of the gospel falls flat on it's face when we shine the light of Gods Word on it. I see you don't believe that God spoke through Paul, so you obviously don't believe that the bible is Gods Word.

Gods Word declares that "wea are saved by grace" but you reject that and superimpose your word over His and add works to what He clearly said. Do you suppose that God forgot to add works to His gospel, let me assure you God doesn't forget to include anything and He certainly doesn't need you to impose your version of the gospel over His. He is quite capable of speaking for Himself.

God never once said that salvation is dependant on your ability to keep the commandments. I'm not sure you're hell bent on making the bible say what it never says anywhere.
You keep taking those scriptures which exhort people who are (already saved) to keep the commandments and to strive to please God by living a life of obedience.
God already knows we will still commit sins like murder and adultery, but these don't cause us to lose our salvation because we just confess our sins and He is faithful to forgive us and restore us to His Body.

Gods foreknowledge is not like that of a witch or a fortune teller, God didn't look down the corridors of time and see Johnny boy helping the old lady cross the street and decide that He will save Johnny boy because he is a good boy. May I remind you that God predestined the whole of human history, and nothing has ever happened nor can anything happen apart from His will.

God is absolutely sovereign over every aspect of His creation, especially whom He chose to save and whom He chose to leave dead in their sin. God never left anything to chance or in the hands of sinners to decide the most important thing in creation, that being where we spend eternity.
God knows who will be saved and who won't, because He is the One who determined that, before time began. He wrote my name in His book of life and the gates of hell can't change that fact.

 

[Christian Soldier]

It is not a doctrine of scripture. It is a doctrine of Calvinism only. My concordance only lists three forms or uses of the word predestinate. And none state that God predestined anyone to salvation.

To become an elect one must first believe and be baptized. This puts one in Christ or in His Kingdom, a member of His Church, the elect. It is these elect that are chosen to be given salvation, not by election, but through sanctification and Faith. In an earlier post to you I stated there were five instances of election in scripture. The Body of Christ, the elect is one of those instances.
I understand you are having difficulty understanding scripture outside of the perameters of Calvinism. This is the case for all man-made theories.
In your case, you apparently don't really understand predestination either. If one was actually predestined to believe then the rest of this text is superfluous and meaningless.

This is what all Calvinists state. However, I used the phrase "by default". By not choosing is choosing. Your doctrine precludes any kind of judgement as well. If one is chosen, elected as saved, and all others by default are condemned, why would there be a judgement?
Your theology and understanding of scripture is not consistent.

So, you don't actually believe in Predestination of someone to be a believer. Predestination does not allow for change. It is a static concept which is why it does not fit scripture. This is another example of Calvin's inconsistency of scripture. The other tenets of Calvinism are consistent with each other, but not to scripture.
If man is totally depraved and has no agency, then it is logical that God would need to select/elect one, thus limited atonement, which is an impossibility within scripture, and irresistable grace and perseveance very neatly follow, all under the umbrella of predestination. But you cannot use scripture where man has free agency since is violates predestination.


Explain how this is done under the concept of predestination. It is a static state of being, cannot change. If one is elected a believer, he is a believer and nothing else is necessary. Bible does not ever state man becomes sinless. That will only happen in the eschoton.
If you had stated the God predestined those that believe, the elect, to work with them toward their salvation you would be correct. But that little word "IN" stumped Calvin.

Again. your mixing, and totally misunderstanding what predestination of someone to be a believer. None of what you say above could follow. It follows ONLY if man is a free agent, and accepts God's universal call to repentance and belief in Him. Man is not unilaterally transformed into the image of Christ. That is a mutual, cooperative relationship, of love. Again does not align with predestination.
Do you realize that you believe man will be exterminated upon death for those that did not believe, or in your case elected? Our Adamic state after the curse of death was given to Adam was absolute. If not for Christ's Incarnation, death and resurrection, we, the world would simply succumb to death, nonexistence, There would be no heaven or hell. There would have been no eternity. Why do you think Christ came in the first place? If He did not defeat death, there is nothing else that remains. Yet you hold to limited atonement which is an impossibility with an Incarnated Christ who bore our human nature. All men have the same nature, or are you going to deny that as well, to stay within Calvinism?

Your mixing predestination again with man's free agency. This is why your theology is inconsistent. You want both worlds, Calvinism and scripture as it actually means. Let me ask you, Why would you need to know who the elect are? God knows and they were all elected as believers. Your mission work would accomplish nothing.

That fits presestination again. It does not fit scripture. It is all about works. You are very confused on this issue. Man's judgement is not on whether he was elected, It is on his works, works of righteousness. Rom 2:6-8 and Rev 20: 11-13. Per scripture, we are being saved through our faith. If we lose faith, reject so great a salvation, or work to maintain one's faith is the difference. We don't get salvation until the end, those who hold the concept of "losing salvation" cannot be a scriptural teaching, I Pet 1:3-5. Its not a guarantee, but a hope.

The above statement shows you no longer believe in predestination. That is good. You even have man with free agency. Great. Anyone is forgiven of their sins, However not arbitrarily, but only upon repentance or confession. There is nothing automatic except I would assume under predestination it does not matter, you are already saved.

Every one of your theories is based on false doctrine, not a single one is supported by scripture. I have showed you the truth as God spoke it but you simply reject it and go back to your default position of blind ignorance.

God's sovereign choice before creation, notably Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:4-5 text, and Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:11 text, stating we were chosen and predestined "before the foundation of the world" for adoption. Romans 9:11, 15-16, Romans 9:11, 15-16 text, highlight God's choice of Jacob over Esau, based on His purpose, not works. Romans 8:29-30, Romans 8:29-30 text, describes a chain of salvation (foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified) linked to God's eternal plan.

It's not possible to consider Gods Word with you, while you keep rejecting everything he said because it exposes your doctrine as being demonic.

You claim "To become an elect one must first believe and be baptized. This puts one in Christ or in His Kingdom, a member of His Church, the elect."

But God said you are dead in your sin, and dead people can't elect themselves onto salvation, just more nonsense from you.

I'm not going to bother correcting the rest of your unbiblical opinions and theories in the rest of your reply. Just know that every point you tried to make is unbiblical and based on your own private opinion.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I let you go in peace, I did all I could but you refuse to listen so be it, however if you have specific questions on Jesus please ask just know all i said is true and if you take the time to really read and understand Matthew, John, Luke and Mark and you really need to, you will understand all I wrote to you.

I carefully considered everything you shared, then I cross-referenced it with Gods Word and found it doesn't line up.

I appreciate you believe everything you stated to be the truth, but as you would be well aware there are many different truths held by many different denominations. That's why we have 49,000 Christian denomination who preach their own version of the truth.

It's OK to share our views, but most Christians don't believe that absolute truth exists, they believe that truth is subjective. So they start with a premiss (preconceived expectation of what the bible is saying), then they build their theology on that premiss.
So most Christians don't conform themselves to what Gods Word reveals, teaches and instructs them. They do the opposite and force Gods Word to conform to their expectation of what God should have said (or what He was trying to say but failed to express Himself adequately)

I have found most of my Christians friends reject Gods Word, because they don't like authority of any kind, they want to be their own final authority in all matters. The easiest way to usurp Gods authority is to make His Word say what you want it to say, in order to make yourself the highest authority. It's all about rebellion, Lucifer done this exact same thing, then when He became Satan He said to Eve "hath God said" He deceived Eve into trusting in His false gospel.

 

[Christian Soldier]

2 Timothy 3:16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness,

John 17:17
New International Version
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Romans 15:4
Berean Standard Bible
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Thank you for confirming what I sated earlier. These words are rubbish to everyone except for Gods elect Saints. They are hate speech, and you would be executed in some countries, for quoting them.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you take this parable literally? Oh my!

Berean...
Some take the story in Luke 15 about Lazarus and the Rich Man to be literal and some understand it to be a parable.
By "they" I mean theologians.

Those that take it to be literal take not of the fact that Jesus used the actual name of a person...He does not do this in any other parable.

Personally, I believe this is literal because it fits with other NT theology....
for instance, the torn curtain at the death of Jesus in Matthew 27:51...
it is commonly accepted that at this time the gates of heaven were opened and not before this time.
Before this time persons waited in "Abraham's Bossom" in hades, in the place mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Timothy 3:16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness,

John 17:17
New International Version
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Romans 15:4
Berean Standard Bible
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

Walter,
The other member said that Jesus' words are rubbish to those that do not believe.

I'd say that God's word does not return void.
Every word we speak re God will remain with the hearer and just might have an effect on them someday.

Every word that Jesus spoke and that every writer spoke is precious to both believers and unbelievers because it is THE TRUTH and the truth will have a positive effect on everyone sooner or later.

And we must keep speaking the truth, which is objective, in this world of subjective truth which is a lie from hell and does nothing but destroy our civilization.

So I encourage you since I find it difficult to post to the other member.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey @LoveYeshua
4 more posts!!!

What do you think your prize from the mods will be??

 

[LoveYeshua]

I carefully considered everything you shared, then I cross-referenced it with Gods Word and found it doesn't line up.

I appreciate you believe everything you stated to be the truth, but as you would be well aware there are many different truths held by many different denominations. That's why we have 49,000 Christian denomination who preach their own version of the truth.

It's OK to share our views, but most Christians don't believe that absolute truth exists, they believe that truth is subjective. So they start with a premiss (preconceived expectation of what the bible is saying), then they build their theology on that premiss.
So most Christians don't conform themselves to what Gods Word reveals, teaches and instructs them. They do the opposite and force Gods Word to conform to their expectation of what God should have said (or what He was trying to say but failed to express Himself adequately)

I have found most of my Christians friends reject Gods Word, because they don't like authority of any kind, they want to be their own final authority in all matters. The easiest way to usurp Gods authority is to make His Word say what you want it to say, in order to make yourself the highest authority. It's all about rebellion, Lucifer done this exact same thing, then when He became Satan He said to Eve "hath God said" He deceived Eve into trusting in His false gospel.

Read your bible, the books I specified , MAtt, John,Luke, Mark. You really need to follow Christ who is one with God, you probably do not remember this but Christ was given full autority in heaven and on Earth, just ponder on this ans what it means! and do as he asks!
its all I have to say to you for now so stop complaining and start listening to what some good people say to you here also consider that according to you everyone here has a false theology, this should indicate to you that you have a problem and that you are certainly wrong. all of us cannot be wrong. do not bother replying to complain but I will answer if you have a specific question about the gospel of Jesus the son of God.

 

[Rightglory]

Every one of your theories is based on false doctrine, not a single one is supported by scripture. I have showed you the truth as God spoke it but you simply reject it and go back to your default position of blind ignorance.

God's sovereign choice before creation, notably Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:4-5 text, and Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:11 text, stating we were chosen and predestined "before the foundation of the world" for adoption. Romans 9:11, 15-16, Romans 9:11, 15-16 text, highlight God's choice of Jacob over Esau, based on His purpose, not works. Romans 8:29-30, Romans 8:29-30 text, describes a chain of salvation (foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified) linked to God's eternal plan.

With a little more study outside of Calvinism, you might understand the above texts. None of them show the predestination of anyone as a believer. Ephesians 1:4-5 shows that it is the elect who are IN Christ that where predestined to be saved through the means God uses to save individuals. Ephesians 1P:11 also states the very same thng and even clearly shows man's agency is necessary in vs 12. "Those who first trusted, not were predestined to believe/trusted. Vs 13 continues in the same context. Your problem is that you have gone along with the errors of Calvin who lifted texts out of context first, then assigns his own interpretation to them. Rom 9:11, 15,16 shows precisely one of the examples I gave of 5 uses of predestination in scripture, And your statement that it was based on purpose, nol works and anything man did. Here are the examples again. Christ, Isreal, the elect, His Body, the Apostles, and Paul.
The citing of Rom 8P:29 explains God's sovereign plan. Because of His foreknowledge God knows who would believe, thus it says He foreknew, those He foreknew He predestined them to be saved through sanctification and faith, All men are called to believe, to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.. We are justified by faith, Paul states this many times. Those tat remain faithful to the end will be glorified.
That is the plan of salvation. There is never a mention that one is predestined to believe, it is all about man's free agency working with God within the means He established. One enters His Kingdom by baptism which is also called "regeneration". Why is that word used for baptism? Because it places us IN Christ. or in a relationship with God, the same relationship Adam had with God in the beginning. It is regenerating a relationship.

It's not possible to consider Gods Word with you, while you keep rejecting everything he said because it exposes your doctrine as being demonic.

You claim "To become an elect one must first believe and be baptized. This puts one in Christ or in His Kingdom, a member of His Church, the elect."

But God said you are dead in your sin, and dead people can't elect themselves onto salvation, just more nonsense from you.

Either a misunderstanding of what I stated, or just another strawman. None stated that man elects himself to salvation.

I'm not going to bother correcting the rest of your unbiblical opinions and theories in the rest of your reply. Just know that every point you tried to make is unbiblical and based on your own private opinion.

Some need strawmen, innuendos, and false assumptions just so they don't need to explain a view that history has long debunked even within Protestant denominations. History shows that the Calvinist system did not exist until the 16th century, hardly Biblical from the beginning. As this discussion has clearly shown there is a vast difference between what the Bible has meant and what Calvinism means superimposed upon scripture. The fact that you cannot show it is NOT a man-made theory speaks loudly regarding its authenticity.

 

[ProDeo]

Every one of your theories is based on false doctrine, not a single one is supported by scripture. I have showed you the truth as God spoke it but you simply reject it and go back to your default position of blind ignorance.

Hi CS, I am new to the discussion, 250 pages, maybe everything what I have to say is already said, but here goes...

God's sovereign choice before creation, notably Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:4-5 text, and Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:11 text, stating we were chosen and predestined "before the foundation of the world" for adoption. Romans 9:11, 15-16, Romans 9:11, 15-16 text, highlight God's choice of Jacob over Esau, based on His purpose, not works. Romans 8:29-30, Romans 8:29-30 text, describes a chain of salvation (foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified) linked to God's eternal plan.

Allow me to give you another perspective about this hard to understand topic.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

We also know Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8

We also know the book of life was written from the foundation of the world -- Revelation 17:8 among others.

Meaning, the Lord God knew everything in advance before He even created Adam and Eve.

1. Adam and Eve were predestined to fall, not because that was God's will, but because He foreknew.

2. Jesus was predestined to descend from heaven, become human and die for the sins of the world, reconcile what went wrong in Eden. Not because God had any pleasure sacrificing the most precious He had (Jesus) but because He loved us after all (John 3:16-17) and because He decided that Jesus was predestined to die on a cross because He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. All that from the foundation of the world

3. The book of life is already written from the foundation of the world, because God foreknows how you and me and everybody else will end, it is predestined.

It only has to be played out, which is why we are here now.

 

[PinSeeker]

...God foreknows how you and me and everybody else will end, it is predestined.

It only has to be played out, which is why we are here now.

God's foreknowing, as it is used in the Bible ~ by Paul in Romans 8:29 in particular ~ is not just a cognitive foreseeing or a "looking forward into the future and seeing who will choose Him." In that case, one's salvation would not really depend on God but upon Himself, which is directly contradictory to Romans 9:16. As Paul says there, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." To foreknow someone is to fore-love and even to fore-choose them... in God's case to designate them as His own ~ one of His elect ~ before that person has even come to be. One does not predestine himself or herself to be conformed to the image of Christ. God does that.

At the very least, ProDeo, in saying "those whom He foreknew," Paul is obviously talking about not the whole of humanity but only a group smaller than the whole. If we think of this foreknowing as mere knowing beforehand, well in that sense, God foreknows every human being in the whole of humanity in all of time. But again, Paul is talking about a group of people less than the whole of humanity, so the foreknowing that he speaks of has to be something different than mere knowing ahead of time. You see?

Grace and peace to you, ProDeo.