Is it possible to lose salvation?

[HealthyShape]

And that's because we CANNOT, we are UNABLE to make anyone stop sinning.

We can, in many cases. Prisons and other forms of punishment are basically there to do that.

But we cannot force anyone to be sinless, many sins are hard to catch or restrict, like the sins in heart (hatred....)

 

[HealthyShape]

I guess it depends on the specific scriptures we are talking about?

It always does.

 

[GodsGrace]

We can, in many cases. Prisons and other forms of punishment are basically there to do that.

But we cannot force anyone to be sinless, many sins are hard to catch or restrict, like sins in heart.

Interesting point!

Right.
So the prison will make a murderer stop murdering...and this is great for society's protection.

But in his heart, he is STILL a murderer and STILL a sinner.
You state this in your second sentence.

I think we agree.

 

[HealthyShape]

But in his heart, he is STILL a murderer and STILL a sinner.

Not always. People change and who killed once does not need to be always trying/wanting to kill somebody else. We do not live in an action movie.

And some better countries have actually prisons that try to change people, not to just lock them in cages.

There is also the deterrent effect of punishment that may stop many sins. For example, when adultery was punishable by death, I suppose people were less adulterous than today, when it is basically normalized or even celebrated in the pop culture. And in some cases, just societal shame alone can be as good deterrent as some punishment by the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not always. People change and who killed once does not need to be always trying/wanting to kill somebody else. We do not live in an action movie.

Agreed.

And some better countries have actually prisons that try to change people, not to just lock them in cages.

It has been tried in the US.
I'm not going to look up statistics but it does not seem to work and may actually cause more harm making nominal criminals into more hardened criminals due to exposure to hardened criminals and the necessity for self-protection.

There is also the deterrent effect of punishment that may stop many sins. For example, when adultery was punishable by death, I suppose people were less adulterous than today, when it is basically normalized or even celebrated in the pop culture. And in some cases, just societal shame alone can be as good deterrent as some punishment by the law.

Agreed.

 

[HealthyShape]

It has been tried in the US.
I'm not going to look up statistics but it does not seem to work and may actually cause more harm making nominal criminals into more hardened criminals due to exposure to hardened criminals and the necessity for self-protection.

It works outside of the US... so it is possible. Why it does not work in the US, I do not know. Different prison system, different prison culture, different priorities...

 

[LoveYeshua]

You're contradicting yourself, on the one hand you say that we must obey the commandments and abide in Him. Then you admit that we don't, (or we do sometimes). Then you say that grace doesn't remove the call to obedience, then you say that grace gives us the power to walk in it, (I think you mean to obey the commandments).

So, I'm getting a mixed message here. I don't know if you believe we are saved by our obedience in keeping the law, or are we saved by grace. You can't have it both ways, Gods word says we are saved by grace, through the gift of faith. so you can't boast that you were saved by your works.

The burden that Jesus describes is nothing to do with the narrow path, because He promised that those of us who are on the narrow path will be hated by the world and we will suffer persecution and be killed. Now that doesn't sound like a light yoke at all.

The Lord Jesus knew that we can't keep any of His commandments, except for the easy one which takes no effort at all, that being to place our trust in Him, and He then does all the work of salvation for us, and we only contribute filthy rags to His finished work.

The Lord Jesus knew that the rich young ruler was not one of Gods elect, that's why He gave him the impossible task of kipping the commandments. But you will never find the Lord Jesus ever demanding anything from Gods chosen/elect. We are already saved, so you don't set conditions for someone to achieve if they already have the prize.

I have already inherited eternal life, because I am already saved, so I don't need to keep any commandment to earn my salvation. Your denomination teaches, the "saved by works" unbiblical version of the gospel.

I try to obey the commandments as much as I can, but I'm just like the rest of Gods Saints, we all continue to sin everyday for the rest of our lives. I don't chose to sin everyday, I sin because I have not attained sinless perfection. I will become like Christ, in the life to come, until then I will sin everyday and the gates of hell can't stop me from claiming my inheritance.

Here is a clear and simple reply to you that you can learn from. Keeping everything grounded in Jesus’ own words and explaining grace as the work of the Holy Spirit, not permission to ignore obedience.
There is no contradiction once we keep Jesus’ words in their proper place. Jesus never taught that obedience saves us by earning eternal life, and He also never taught that obedience is optional or meaningless. He taught that life comes from God, and obedience flows from remaining in Him.

Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5, NKJV). Notice the order. Life comes first from abiding in Him. Fruit comes after. Fruit is not the root. Obedience is the fruit of a living connection to Christ, not the price paid to buy salvation.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), He is not saying, “Keep commandments so I will love you.” He is saying that love produces obedience. A living tree bears fruit because it is alive. It does not become alive by forcing fruit to grow.

Grace is not a legal covering that excuses disobedience. Grace is God’s power at work in us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised this clearly. He said, “The Helper, the Holy Spirit… will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). Grace is God coming to live in us, changing the heart, guiding, correcting, strengthening, and helping us walk as Jesus walked.

This is why Jesus could say, “My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:30). The burden is not obedience itself. The burden He removes is trying to live for God without God living in us. The narrow path is hard because the world hates truth, not because God’s commands are cruel. Persecution comes from men, not from God’s commandments.

Jesus never taught that trusting Him replaces obedience. He taught that trusting Him makes obedience possible. He said, “He who hears My words and does them, I will liken him to a wise man” (Matthew 7:24). He did not say, “He who hears My words and ignores them.”

The rich young ruler was not given an “impossible task” to prove he was not chosen. Jesus exposed his heart. When Jesus listed the commandments, the man claimed obedience, but his heart was still bound to his wealth. Jesus was showing him what ruled him. Jesus does this often, because He looks at the heart, not labels like elect or not elect.

Jesus did demand obedience from those who followed Him. He said to His disciples, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). He spoke these words to people who already believed in Him.

Eternal life is a gift, but it is a living relationship, not a legal document stored away while life stays unchanged. Jesus defined eternal life this way: “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). Knowing Him means walking with Him.

Yes, believers still stumble. Jesus knew this. That is why He taught forgiveness, repentance, and mercy. But He never taught that daily sin is inevitable or harmless. He said, “Go and sin no more” (John 8:11). Not as condemnation, but as a call to a new way of life through God’s power.

The gates of hell cannot overcome those who remain in Christ, but remaining in Christ means continuing in His word. Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed” (John 8:31).

So this is not salvation by works, and it is not salvation without obedience. It is salvation by God’s life within us. Grace is by the Holy Spirit given to us, not to remove obedience, but to write God’s law on the heart and give us strength to walk in it.

As for sin, Jesus never told us to carry the weight of a whole lifetime on our shoulders. He knows our weakness, and He speaks to us with kindness. That is why He said, “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble” (Matthew 6:34, NKJV).

Jesus is not asking for perfection tomorrow, next year, or for the rest of our lives all at once. He calls us to walk with Him today. One step, one choice, one moment at a time. Just as God gave Israel manna for one day and not for many days ahead, Jesus teaches us to depend on God daily, not in fear, but in trust.

This is how grace works in real life. The Holy Spirit helps us now, in this moment. When we fall, we rise again and return to Him. When we are weak, He gives strength for today. We do not obey to earn life, and we do not give up because we stumble. We stay close to Jesus and let Him lead us forward, one day at a time.Jesus said, “Abide in Me” (John 15:4). He did not say, “Solve everything at once.” He invites us to walk with Him today, and tomorrow He will be there again.

Blessings

 

[LoveYeshua]

I answered my own direct question with a direct answer. Yet you simply dismissed my direct question as a speculative scenario.

Now hold on for one minute. I have three conversations going on at the same time on three different Christian forum sites and at first I confused you with someone else who has evaded numerous questions. He is the slippery one! By you not answering my question about about heaven's gate does not earn you the title of being slippery. Sorry about that.

it is O.K I understand it can be confusing at times.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

No, Scripturally, Under Grace, no 'member' Of The Body Of Christ can 'lose' God's Eternal Salvation!:

Is this why you feel free to go ahead and engage in sinful behavior from time to time?

Weren't you proudly proclaiming earlier that you are still a sinner?

That's what those teaching false grace keep claiming is they are still sinners and they are so proud of this they tell others frequently.

They must not know what God's definition of grace is. Not sure why, it's right there in the New Testament:

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Then they FAIL to recognize that the Galatians were born again and then fell from grace after they turned away from trusting in Jesus having turned back to trusting the OT law for their salvation:

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Rightglory]

OK, so now you confess that you're a Calvinist after all. If you don't believe in Jacob Arminius' version of the gospel "salvation is by works", then it means that you believe that "salvation is by grace" and that exactly what John Calvin taught.

Quite the contrary. Calvin, as a former Roman Catholic, held the same theological view which is that grace is created. Roman Catholic theology no longer separates God's essence with His energies. This means that man and God are external to each other and they cannot interact with each other. Calvin, as opposed to all other Protestants also imposes the concept of Predestination. This makes it even worse, since man is forever what God decrees man to be. You believe He chose some to salvation, others to condemnation by default. This means man does not change, which follows Calvins other principles of TULIP. The issue Calvin could not get around is that man is inherently totally depraved, thus all Calvinist, based on this theological concept can never change. God may have elected someone, but that person remains totally depraved by nature. So, limited atonement is very logical, but completely antithetical to scripture as it denies who Christ was as our Incarnated Lord. As well as irresistible grace. One cannot change something predestined, including man himself. Then perseverance of the saints follow, though really just another way to say irresistible grace.

None of these concepts change the idea of predestination. They are actually superfluous. For Calvinist, based on the principle of predestination, mission work is meaningless. It also shows the false teaching clearly when one recognizes that such ideas as belief, is not necessary. Man state was set at the moment of birth, actually from eternity. I'm not sure that Christ would even be necessary since His work was completed before the foundations of the world by decree. It shows the absolute absurdity of such a doctrine from scripture.

Then thrown in with that is another Protestant concept carried over from the Roman Catholics is the "Satisfaction Theory" of Anselm. In this theory, man supposedly injured the justice of God by sinning. Since man did the sinning the only way to "satisfy" this injustice is for Christ to bear that sin and guilt, being both God and man. Thus when a person is saved they are simply declared ":righteous, not guilty,
Several reason this theory is unscriptural as well. It asserts that God has problem with sin rather than man. It also presupposes God actually changes when man believes, confesses his sin, God' anger is assuaged, declared not guilty, but does nothing to change man. Man in his sinful nature remains the same thus leads to the huge differences within Protestantism between faith and works.

If you try to say, that you don't believe either of those, then it shows that you're under strong delusion and the truth is not in you, because no third option exists.

See above,

Some have attempted to create a Hybrid / Frankenstein, version of the gospel. They mix Gods Grace and their works/obedience, to create a team effort version of salvation. But no such abomination exists int the bible.

Actually the team effort is the primary reason for man's existence. Adam was created in God's image. He was to work with God to attain likeness to God. He was to do what is told to us in scripture, in order to share in the Divine nature of God. Because your theology of predestination prevents man from ever changing, while all other protestants who hold to the Satisfaction theory believe that the purpose of man is simply to become more moral.. One need not be a Christian in order to be moral and good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Quite the contrary. Calvin, as a former Roman Catholic, held the same theological view which is that grace is created. Roman Catholic theology no longer separates God's essence with His energies. This means that man and God are external to each other and they cannot interact with each other. Calvin, as opposed to all other Protestants also imposes the concept of Predestination. This makes it even worse, since man is forever what God decrees man to be. You believe He chose some to salvation, others to condemnation by default. This means man does not change, which follows Calvins other principles of TULIP. The issue Calvin could not get around is that man is inherently totally depraved, thus all Calvinist, based on this theological concept can never change. God may have elected someone, but that person remains totally depraved by nature. So, limited atonement is very logical, but completely antithetical to scripture as it denies who Christ was as our Incarnated Lord. As well as irresistible grace. One cannot change something predestined, including man himself. Then perseverance of the saints follow, though really just another way to say irresistible grace.

None of these concepts change the idea of predestination. They are actually superfluous. For Calvinist, based on the principle of predestination, mission work is meaningless. It also shows the false teaching clearly when one recognizes that such ideas as belief, is not necessary. Man state was set at the moment of birth, actually from eternity. I'm not sure that Christ would even be necessary since His work was completed before the foundations of the world by decree. It shows the absolute absurdity of such a doctrine from scripture.

Then thrown in with that is another Protestant concept carried over from the Roman Catholics is the "Satisfaction Theory" of Anselm. In this theory, man supposedly injured the justice of God by sinning. Since man did the sinning the only way to "satisfy" this injustice is for Christ to bear that sin and guilt, being both God and man. Thus when a person is saved they are simply declared ":righteous, not guilty,
Several reason this theory is unscriptural as well. It asserts that God has problem with sin rather than man. It also presupposes God actually changes when man believes, confesses his sin, God' anger is assuaged, declared not guilty, but does nothing to change man. Man in his sinful nature remains the same thus leads to the huge differences within Protestantism between faith and works.

Hi Rightglory,
I enjoy reading your posts,,,they're very complete and, I do believe, correct in their theology.

But the above is confusing re the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement.

I believe all the theories I know of (I think 7) are biblically based in some way or another.
Each one has some aspect to it that agrees with what scripture teaches.
Sounds like you don't care for the Satisfaction Theory...
which theory do you believe is scriptural or which theory do you most agree with?

No desire to debate this but your answer does interest me.

See above,

Actually the team effort is the primary reason for man's existence. Adam was created in God's image. He was to work with God to attain likeness to God. He was to do what is told to us in scripture, in order to share in the Divine nature of God. Because your theology of predestination prevents man from ever changing, while all other protestants who hold to the Satisfaction theory believe that the purpose of man is simply to become more moral.. One need not be a Christian in order to be moral and good.

 

[walter]

Where does the Understanding come from, reading just a few scriptures, or all the the words from Jesus and the Apostles? Does Jesus want us to ignore any parts of the Bible? ​

Rubbish question, rubbish theology

Please I would just like to understand what is not rubbish, will it be okay if I just list some of Jesus words, and let Jesus do all the talking through the scriptures.

 

[Berean]

Under the OT only those the Lord considered to be "saved" went to Abraham's bosom as we see in the case of the rich man and lazurus

All others went to the lower parts of hell like the rich man and they are not saved.

So, you take this parable literally? Oh my!

 

[walter]

So, you take this parable literally? Oh my!

I agree, when Jesus spoke in public he only spoke in Parables, and these are Jesus words about when he speaks in Parables..

• Matthew 13:13-15: "This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah...'".
• Mark 4:12: "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables so that, 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand; in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven'".
• Luke 8:10: "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand".

 

[Christian Soldier]

Here is a clear and simple reply to you that you can learn from. Keeping everything grounded in Jesus’ own words and explaining grace as the work of the Holy Spirit, not permission to ignore obedience.
There is no contradiction once we keep Jesus’ words in their proper place. Jesus never taught that obedience saves us by earning eternal life, and He also never taught that obedience is optional or meaningless. He taught that life comes from God, and obedience flows from remaining in Him.

Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5, NKJV). Notice the order. Life comes first from abiding in Him. Fruit comes after. Fruit is not the root. Obedience is the fruit of a living connection to Christ, not the price paid to buy salvation.

When Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), He is not saying, “Keep commandments so I will love you.” He is saying that love produces obedience. A living tree bears fruit because it is alive. It does not become alive by forcing fruit to grow.

Grace is not a legal covering that excuses disobedience. Grace is God’s power at work in us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised this clearly. He said, “The Helper, the Holy Spirit… will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). Grace is God coming to live in us, changing the heart, guiding, correcting, strengthening, and helping us walk as Jesus walked.

This is why Jesus could say, “My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:30). The burden is not obedience itself. The burden He removes is trying to live for God without God living in us. The narrow path is hard because the world hates truth, not because God’s commands are cruel. Persecution comes from men, not from God’s commandments.

Jesus never taught that trusting Him replaces obedience. He taught that trusting Him makes obedience possible. He said, “He who hears My words and does them, I will liken him to a wise man” (Matthew 7:24). He did not say, “He who hears My words and ignores them.”

The rich young ruler was not given an “impossible task” to prove he was not chosen. Jesus exposed his heart. When Jesus listed the commandments, the man claimed obedience, but his heart was still bound to his wealth. Jesus was showing him what ruled him. Jesus does this often, because He looks at the heart, not labels like elect or not elect.

Jesus did demand obedience from those who followed Him. He said to His disciples, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). He spoke these words to people who already believed in Him.

Eternal life is a gift, but it is a living relationship, not a legal document stored away while life stays unchanged. Jesus defined eternal life this way: “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). Knowing Him means walking with Him.

Yes, believers still stumble. Jesus knew this. That is why He taught forgiveness, repentance, and mercy. But He never taught that daily sin is inevitable or harmless. He said, “Go and sin no more” (John 8:11). Not as condemnation, but as a call to a new way of life through God’s power.

The gates of hell cannot overcome those who remain in Christ, but remaining in Christ means continuing in His word. Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed” (John 8:31).

So this is not salvation by works, and it is not salvation without obedience. It is salvation by God’s life within us. Grace is by the Holy Spirit given to us, not to remove obedience, but to write God’s law on the heart and give us strength to walk in it.

As for sin, Jesus never told us to carry the weight of a whole lifetime on our shoulders. He knows our weakness, and He speaks to us with kindness. That is why He said, “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble” (Matthew 6:34, NKJV).

Jesus is not asking for perfection tomorrow, next year, or for the rest of our lives all at once. He calls us to walk with Him today. One step, one choice, one moment at a time. Just as God gave Israel manna for one day and not for many days ahead, Jesus teaches us to depend on God daily, not in fear, but in trust.

This is how grace works in real life. The Holy Spirit helps us now, in this moment. When we fall, we rise again and return to Him. When we are weak, He gives strength for today. We do not obey to earn life, and we do not give up because we stumble. We stay close to Jesus and let Him lead us forward, one day at a time.Jesus said, “Abide in Me” (John 15:4). He did not say, “Solve everything at once.” He invites us to walk with Him today, and tomorrow He will be there again.

Blessings

Sadly, there was nothing clear, or simple and there was nothing to learn from in your reply. All you have offered is a bunch of incoherent doctrinal views which are inconsistent with any scripture. You're still trying to mix the "saved by works" version of the gospel, with the "saved by grace" gospel.

I have never ever come across a single verse of scripture that supports your version of the gospel. The Bible is clear and simple and you could learn from it if you had the gift of discernment. The Bible says "we are saved by grace", I'm not sure why you don't believe this, but I can only assume that it's because you have been indoctrinated with the false "works based gospel", which gives you something to boast about.

The Lord will not share His glory with you or anyone else, so please don't try to claim a stake in Gods work of salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, it's not of the Lord + your works. You are not saved by obedience, you won't find a single verse in the bible to support this false gospel view.

I'm not sure where you got the notion that God's elect, have permission to ignore obedience. And I have no idea why you would say that the Lord Jesus never taught that obedience is optional or meaningless. Nobody has ever suggested anything so silly.

I have never come across anything in the bible to support this idea that obedience flows from abiding in the Lord Jesus. This suggests that "abiding in Him" is a work and that goes back to your saved by works theory.

I never chose to abide in Christ, I was His enemy and I hated everything about Him. He had to leave His high and holy station in heaven to come into the world and suffer unimaginable torture save me.
So I'm not sure why you're suggesting that anyone is saved by abiding in Him.

You completely missed the reason why the rich young ruler was condemned to hell, it was because he attempted to mix his works (filthy rags) with the Lords immaculate garments.
The young man, claimed that he can be saved by keeping the commandments, just as you claim. But Jesus exposed his false gospel by showing him that it's impossible to be saved by keeping the commandments because they are impossible to keep.

I'm not sure if you Minister ever told you the truth about the human condition, where mankind's sin nature makes it impossible to keep a single commandment. That's why our best efforts to keep the commandments are as filthy stinking rags in God sight, They are an abomination in His sight. They were a stench in His nostrils, under the old covenant and they stink even more under the new covenant.

Every single one of Gods elect, sins every single day. We always have and we always will while we are in this world. This is why the Lord Jesus paid for every one of our past, present and future sins. So your hybrid version of the gospel, simply doesn't work and it is an abomination in Gods sight.
If we attempt to add our works to the finished work of Christ, then it's an abomination.

Nobody is suggesting that Gods elect have a free pass to surrender and serve their sin, lust and desires. That is not how us born again believers live. No, our life is a wrestling match and a race. We don't win every battle but we win the race.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Quite the contrary. Calvin, as a former Roman Catholic, held the same theological view which is that grace is created. Roman Catholic theology no longer separates God's essence with His energies. This means that man and God are external to each other and they cannot interact with each other. Calvin, as opposed to all other Protestants also imposes the concept of Predestination. This makes it even worse, since man is forever what God decrees man to be. You believe He chose some to salvation, others to condemnation by default. This means man does not change, which follows Calvins other principles of TULIP. The issue Calvin could not get around is that man is inherently totally depraved, thus all Calvinist, based on this theological concept can never change. God may have elected someone, but that person remains totally depraved by nature. So, limited atonement is very logical, but completely antithetical to scripture as it denies who Christ was as our Incarnated Lord. As well as irresistible grace. One cannot change something predestined, including man himself. Then perseverance of the saints follow, though really just another way to say irresistible grace.

None of these concepts change the idea of predestination. They are actually superfluous. For Calvinist, based on the principle of predestination, mission work is meaningless. It also shows the false teaching clearly when one recognizes that such ideas as belief, is not necessary. Man state was set at the moment of birth, actually from eternity. I'm not sure that Christ would even be necessary since His work was completed before the foundations of the world by decree. It shows the absolute absurdity of such a doctrine from scripture.

Then thrown in with that is another Protestant concept carried over from the Roman Catholics is the "Satisfaction Theory" of Anselm. In this theory, man supposedly injured the justice of God by sinning. Since man did the sinning the only way to "satisfy" this injustice is for Christ to bear that sin and guilt, being both God and man. Thus when a person is saved they are simply declared ":righteous, not guilty,
Several reason this theory is unscriptural as well. It asserts that God has problem with sin rather than man. It also presupposes God actually changes when man believes, confesses his sin, God' anger is assuaged, declared not guilty, but does nothing to change man. Man in his sinful nature remains the same thus leads to the huge differences within Protestantism between faith and works.

See above,

Actually the team effort is the primary reason for man's existence. Adam was created in God's image. He was to work with God to attain likeness to God. He was to do what is told to us in scripture, in order to share in the Divine nature of God. Because your theology of predestination prevents man from ever changing, while all other protestants who hold to the Satisfaction theory believe that the purpose of man is simply to become more moral.. One need not be a Christian in order to be moral and good.

Your theology is very strange, I've never come across these theories you hold to. They don't make any sense because there isn't a single verse in the Bible which supports your theories.

First of all "Predestination" is not a concept, it's actually a Bible doctrine. There are around a 120 verses of scripture which confirm this. There is not enough space here for me to list every one of them, so you got off on the wrong foot by denying Gods Word.

God did predestine His chosen people (the elect of God), to salvation. That is not a concept but it is a Bible doctrine. So you're dead wrong again >>>>>> 2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Which part of "chosen you from the beginning for salvation" don't you understand. I'd recommend you join a bible class for beginners, so you can at least get the basic fundamentals. That way you won't embarrass yourself every time I expose your false doctrines.

Nobody has ever claimed that God chose anyone for condemnation, that's another one of your twisted theories. You don't even know what Calvin believed, but your quick to make up lies about him.

Calvin never taught that God creates people who never change. That's another one of your false allegations, the truth is Calvin taught the we not only change but we change totally so there's nothing left of the person we once were. God does all the work of changing His elect and saving us, all we contribute is a filthy stinking corpse.

Gods people don't remain totally depraved, we become perfect and sinless, we become like Christ. So get your facts right before you make up nonsense like these false accusations.

The elect of God cannot change a single aspect of our predestination, every single one of us will respond in faith to the gospel, and we will be born again, and we will be sanctified and transformed into he image of Christ. Those whom God did not chose for salvation remain in their condemned state, with no hope of salvation.

To claim that mission work is useless for Calvinists, again shows your ignorance. We believe what God said about preaching the gospel to every creature. The preaching of the gospel is Gods means of saving His elect, this is why He raises up Shepherds to gather the lost sheep like myself.
Nobody ever claimed that Gods elect just sit back and do nothing, because we are already saved. No, we go and preach the gospel to every creature, because we don't know who the elect are so we preach the gospel to everyone.

You last point is another denial of Gods Word, Adam was the only one who was under the "Covenant of the Law", (in other words it's your ("saved by works") version of the gospel. So you have failed to understand that, everyone after Adam is under the "Covenant of Grace" (saved by no works).
You're obviously mixing the two and creating a non existent hybrid covenant which God never made and man never entered into.

Everyone after Adam was saved by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus, for the remission of their sin. So Abraham is a born again Christian, so is Moses, so is David (the murdering adulterer) "see even born again Christians are forgiven for sins like murder and adultery and every other type of sin. There is no sin that God doesn't forgive His elect.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Please I would just like to understand what is not rubbish, will it be okay if I just list some of Jesus words, and let Jesus do all the talking through the scriptures.

Every word Jesus spoke is rubbish to the unconverted natural man, but every word in the Bible is true to those of us who are saved.
If you don't believe this, then you don't believe what God has said about it. I can bury you with a truck load of verses , to confirm this. You won't be able to wiggle your way out with throw away lines.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Your theology is very strange, I've never come across these theories you hold to. They don't make any sense because there isn't a single verse in the Bible which supports your theories.

First of all "Predestination" is not a concept, it's actually a Bible doctrine. There are around a 120 verses of scripture which confirm this. There is not enough space here for me to list every one of them, so you got off on the wrong foot by denying Gods Word.

God did predestine His chosen people (the elect of God), to salvation. That is not a concept but it is a Bible doctrine. So you're dead wrong again >>>>>> 2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Which part of "chosen you from the beginning for salvation" don't you understand. I'd recommend you join a bible class for beginners, so you can at least get the basic fundamentals. That way you won't embarrass yourself every time I expose your false doctrines.

Nobody has ever claimed that God chose anyone for condemnation, that's another one of your twisted theories. You don't even know what Calvin believed, but your quick to make up lies about him.

Calvin never taught that God creates people who never change. That's another one of your false allegations, the truth is Calvin taught the we not only change but we change totally so there's nothing left of the person we once were. God does all the work of changing His elect and saving us, all we contribute is a filthy stinking corpse.

Gods people don't remain totally depraved, we become perfect and sinless, we become like Christ. So get your facts right before you make up nonsense like these false accusations.

The elect of God cannot change a single aspect of our predestination, every single one of us will respond in faith to the gospel, and we will be born again, and we will be sanctified and transformed into he image of Christ. Those whom God did not chose for salvation remain in their condemned state, with no hope of salvation.

To claim that mission work is useless for Calvinists, again shows your ignorance. We believe what God said about preaching the gospel to every creature. The preaching of the gospel is Gods means of saving His elect, this is why He raises up Shepherds to gather the lost sheep like myself.
Nobody ever claimed that Gods elect just sit back and do nothing, because we are already saved. No, we go and preach the gospel to every creature, because we don't know who the elect are so we preach the gospel to everyone.

You last point is another denial of Gods Word, Adam was the only one who was under the "Covenant of the Law", (in other words it's your ("saved by works") version of the gospel. So you have failed to understand that, everyone after Adam is under the "Covenant of Grace" (saved by no works).
You're obviously mixing the two and creating a non existent hybrid covenant which God never made and man never entered into.

Everyone after Adam was saved by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus, for the remission of their sin. So Abraham is a born again Christian, so is Moses, so is David (the murdering adulterer) "see even born again Christians are forgiven for sins like murder and adultery and every other type of sin. There is no sin that God doesn't forgive His elect.

The Bible does speak about God choosing people, but the strong word “predestined” is used mainly by Paul. The idea itself is older and wider than Paul, but it is spoken in a simpler way by Jesus, His disciples, and the Old Testament. Jesus never uses the word predestined. Instead, He speaks about the Father drawing people, about people being given to Him, and about the elect. In John 6:44 and John 6:65 Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father allows it. In John 15:16 He says that He chose His disciples, and in Matthew 22:14 He says that many are called but few are chosen. Yet Jesus always joins this choosing with hearing, believing, following, and obeying. He never teaches that people are saved by fate without response.

Peter and the other apostles speak in the same way. In Acts 2:23 Peter says that Jesus was delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God. In 1 Peter 1:1–2 he speaks of believers as chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge means that God knows beforehand, not that He forces people against their will. Peter also says in 2 Peter 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This shows that God’s knowledge does not cancel the call for people to repent and respond.

Paul is the one who clearly uses the word “predestined,” especially in Romans 8:29–30 and Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11. Even there, predestination is always connected to being “in Christ.” God predestines what the goal is, to be conformed to the image of His Son, to be holy, and to be adopted as children. Paul does not describe random selection with no obedience, but a path God prepared for those who are in Christ.

The Old Testament also speaks of God choosing people and nations. God chose Israel in Deuteronomy 7:6–8, yet He also told them to choose life in Deuteronomy 30:19. God knew Jeremiah before he was born in Jeremiah 1:5, yet Jeremiah still had to listen and obey. God’s choosing is always joined with responsibility.

Taken together, the whole Bible shows that God calls and chooses, and humans are still told to hear, repent, believe, obey, and follow. Predestination as a word appears mainly in Paul, but the teaching of God’s foreknowledge and calling belongs to all Scripture, and it never removes the call to choose life and walk in God’s ways.

 

[Taken]

Is it possible to lose salvation?

Yes.

How?

By NOT Claiming / Taking / Possessing …
The Gift of Salvation JESUS…
Bought / Paid For / Offered For you TO Take.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Rightglory]

Hi Rightglory,
I enjoy reading your posts,,,they're very complete and, I do believe, correct in their theology.

But the above is confusing re the Satisfaction Theory of Atonement.

I believe all the theories I know of (I think 7) are biblically based in some way or another.
Each one has some aspect to it that agrees with what scripture teaches.
Sounds like you don't care for the Satisfaction Theory...
which theory do you believe is scriptural or which theory do you most agree with?

No desire to debate this but your answer does interest me.

You are correct in that scripture actually uses several metaphors to describe atonement. The problem arises when one chooses one metaphor and makes it the definition of atonement.
Christus Victor is the understanding of the early Church, and the Patristics.