Then your answer will be a clear YES or NO :)
Are LAY HANDS required today to receive the HS ?
The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are LAY HANDS required today to receive the HS ?
I agree, the law in the heart and mind isn’t a form of letters, however, is only the law of love God and your neighbour in your heart and mind, or are individual ‘laws’ as it were there?
If a believer committed adultery, would they be conscious of sin because they committed the act of adultery, or would they only be conscious of sin because they failed to love God as they should?
If a believer stole, would they be conscious of sin because they stole, or would they only be conscious of sin because they failed to love as they should?
I think we know the answer to these questions don’t we.
In 2Cor 3:3 Paul told the Corinthians the law engraved in stone was now in their hearts.
Indeed, when I was a young teenager, I would often hear people say ‘’You must obey the TC’ Whenever I heard that I felt much guilt, not because I wasn’t loving as I should, but because of my impure thoughts. I did not know through reading the letter of the TC at that time impure thoughts transgressed them, I instinctively knew, because what was written in the law was now in my heart and mind.
I bore much guilt because of my imperfections, failing to love others as I should, getting angry at times, my thoughts and much else, you could say I had huge conviction of my imperfections, but never once did I have any consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath. But I am grateful for your attitude of being non judgemental to others concerning that.
Last edited:
While I agree with you in principle, the law that God gave to the Israelites alone is done away with.
Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and
has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
The power of sin is the law/the legally binding law with the power to condemn 1Cor15:56
However, what is written in the moral law is holy, just and good.(Rom7:12)
How did God solve the problem of removing the power of sin whilst retaining what is holy, just and good?
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb10:15-18
Its staggeringly brilliant, only God could pull it off!
Natural law exists to dissuade people from unacceptable behaviour.
The new covenant is not natural to man where law is concerned. God fixed the problem of the need to dissuade man from unacceptable behaviour by placing the desire to obey him in peoples hearts.
Unfortunatley, many still harken after what the natural mind understands, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. Others rebel at the thought of anything written in the TC still existing.
However, what is written in the moral law is holy, just and good.(Rom7:12)
How did God solve the problem of removing the power of sin whilst retaining what is holy, just and good?
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb10:15-18
Its staggeringly brilliant, only God could pull it off!
Natural law exists to dissuade people from unacceptable behaviour.
The new covenant is not natural to man where law is concerned. God fixed the problem of the need to dissuade man from unacceptable behaviour by placing the desire to obey him in peoples hearts.
Unfortunatley, many still harken after what the natural mind understands, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. Others rebel at the thought of anything written in the TC still existing.
I should address the common idea that the new covenant is just the old covenant written on our hearts.
You cannot change a covenant by inscribing it on a different material. That's not a NEW covenant.
Imagine paying off your mortgage on your home.
And then the bank sends you the same mortgage agreement printed on yellow paper expecting you to pay again.
Would you do it? Of course not.
The bank objects, claiming it is a different mortgage agreement since it is printed on yellow paper.
The new covenant really is a NEW covenant. Not the old covenant written on your heart.
Luke 22:20 NIV
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]
Last edited:
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
While this is the desire of GOD that none do perish but rather repent and beleive on JESUS the CHRIST .
All who do reject HIM will be surely damned .
God is longsuffering but the day and hour is coming
wherein time runs out . That day , that hour , sure seems to be quickly approaching .
And many now run to a god and a love and a false gospel they beleive be of GOD .
but its not . And damned will all be who were co helpers to it . To all who believed
in its love , for its love DENIED the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS and even allowed sins upon them
Boiling down something is a kind of synthesis of all the individual ingredients.....to my mind at least....which is the opposite of de-construction. Wouldn't deconstruction mean taking something that has been boiled down and dividing it into all its components...?
But I'm guessing deconstruction is a new catchword in some circles. A new fad. Fads are of the flesh and unfortunately there are and have been plenty of them in Christendom, I've seen some come and go and new ones take their place. They miss the mark and lead astray.
Where there was genuine need it was always permissible to "violate" the letter of the Sabbath to meet the need, as far as God was concerned. The idea was to have a "preparation day" and be ready for the Sabbath when it came. Because both Sabbath Day and Preparation Day were/are symbolic of something greater than what they are in a literal sense. Indeed, as Jesus said, something greater than the temple has come.
And I just want to point out, that since we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul..........remember that Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments. The Law instructs us what righteousness looks like....what it entails. "Law is good if it used properly", ie, in the new way of the Spirit. The washing of the water of the word. God's word is a pure and true weapon that wars against the lies and uncleanness of the enemy.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes.
All foretold.
And the same is observed in Generation after Generation…
OF…the anti-God dying in Damnation…
AND…the Submitting dying in Salvation…
AND…the Wayward still back-stabbing in hopes of being seated at Satans Roundtable.
Glory to God,
Taken
The common understanding of Christian deconstruction is to examine the various elements of faith to determine the value of them.
It is usually driven by a few key issues. For me it was eternal conscious torment. (I can share the testimony)
The NIV uses the word "commands".
Do you think that Jesus said,
"if we love Him we will keep His commandments" is a reference to the TCs,
or the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses?
Last edited:
We had a family situation. My sister-in-law informed my mother-in-law
that she couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell.
Mom was pretty upset. She was afraid of losing a child to unbelief.
The church had taught her that those who succumb to unbelief will be lost for all eternity.
Mom was devastated. Understandably.
The family had been raised evangelical, as had I. Which left me with nothing to offer but the standard apologetics about hell.
This left me with a hollow feeling inside. My "biblical" defense did nothing to help the situation. Mom was still sobbing.
There was really nothing we could say to my sister-in-law to help the situation. I thought she was at least half right.
The hell doctrine bothered me too. Although the church was backing away from the hellfire and brimstone message...
It was still there. Now softened to "Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means)
I did some research to see if I could bolster my hell belief enough to hang onto it. Again, the empty rhetoric prevailed.
What was hell and why did God create it the way the church described it? Such pointless and sadistic horror.
What kind of a...? (sigh)
Then a forum friend whose biblical knowledge I trusted said that he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Say what?
I responded by saying, "Tell me more." He directed me to a forum topic where Universalism was being discussed.
So, I did some research in that direction. My eyes were opened to something I had never seen before when I read this verse.
I had seen the verse before but never noticed the words, "not only for ours". Say what? That's where it began.
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Well, I believe Jesus gave an example of what it means to have the Law written on our hearts....it means we have a new heart which has the Law written on it. Not only should one not commit adultery but the new heart of the new creature will endeavour to not so much as lust after someone. Written on our hearts means it is inward righteousness, not just outward. Not only should we not commit murder outwards, but we should not hate inwardly either (Raca!) because hate is the spirit of murder. This is the inside of our cup cleansed, not just the outside. It is by the Spirit that we mortify (put to death) the deeds of the flesh......that is life......the power and purity of the Spirit. To sin is death. The new covenant cleanses us on the inside, not just the outside. The old covenant was only about cleansing the outside and that not perfectly.....it was to make the people aware of their need for something greater.
But we are to grow the seed that was planted in us...there is a growth factor . Everything isn't automatic and perfect from the beginning, though some things may be, God granting deliverance in some areas when we first come to faith in Him. Just by observation it seems to me that we follow the same pattern as the Israelites in a general way. We start out with a new conscience and desire to please God and we begin by trying to keep His laws in our own strength.....then we start to realize our own strength is not sufficient and so we seek for more of God's grace and strength. It is in us really, everyone having their own measure, but we need to learn how to submit to it and draw on it in a way.......we need to learn how to deny self, submit to God's righteousness in us and walk in the spirit. The flesh lusteth against the spirit and vice versa....we are on a journey of overcoming the flesh.....overcoming and dying to our old man. These battles are necessary....they not only strengthen us but they teach us things by experience....things like faith and trust in Him, as well as humility, and learning by experience that it is not our own strength (that no one may boast) but it is all God's strength and power and grace.....that we might give Him the glory and lay our crowns at His feet. "It's not by might, not by man's strength, but my Spirit says the Lord."
I believe the moral and ethical laws are a given. But I don't think of them in terms of a checklist to us, but more as instruction for our inner man, to strengthen and remind and provoke us to walk accordingly. But the curse of the Law and temple ordinances no longer apply to us...they were nailed to the cross. And Jesus taught us how to live and walk....according to faith and righteousness, no longer according to the ways of the world. And the apostles reminded and fleshed it out some more with their teachings and instruction.
After five minutes into the video.....I observe these things...one is that he is coming from fundamental Baptist....they are cessationists....they do not avail themselves of the Holy Sirit and this limits both their understanding as well as their ability to take on the light and easy yoke and burden of Christ. So they walk mainly in their own strength as well as carnal mind. The carnal mind is enmity with God...and it's easy to see that this young man is relying on his own mind and feelings, which is leading him astray. I strongly doubt he was born again to begin with........"dedicating" one's life to Christ can be a purely intellectual and emotional decision rather than a true conversion brought on through a genuine act of the Holy Spirit in saving a soul. This poor soul was trying to live and walk and understand as a Christian without the Holy Spirit..........impossible and difficult, so not surprising that he bolted.
Do you mean to tell me that you agree with and relate to the point of view of atheists like this one?
If you asked believers if they knew in their mind God did not want them to covet, murder, steal, commit adultery take his name in vain, what do you think they would say?
If you asked believers if in their heart(the flesh is another matter) they did not want to do those things, what do you think they would say?
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
You have a wrong read on him.
A fundamentalist background, yes, but he related many experiences with the presence of God, which he now questions.
I would say he is/was born-again.
For me the real issue with deconstruction is they take it too far and end up as atheists.
I'm separating the wheat from the chaff of church life.
I can relate to them. I think they ask questions that most Christians would be fearful to ask.
I don't agree with everything they say, but they raise good points.
The things you mention, "covet, murder, steal, commit adultery", I understand as God's law of human conscience.
Those things are repeated in the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. Not to us.
Sin was in the world before the law was given. (Romans 5:13)
Well according to Paul they had been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts where the corinthians were concerned(2Cor3:3)
And of course, the covenant is quite explicit. What was once written on tablets of stone is now in the hearts and minds of believers. If you wish to believe it came from somewhere else, it wouldnt really matter in the grand scheme of things, its still there
It's not a NEW covenant if the OLD covenant is written on your heart.
Luke 22:20 NIV
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]
Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and
has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Well firstly, christians do know in their minds God does not want them to steal, commit adultery, take the Lord's name in vain, covet murder, and they would say in their hearts they do not want to do those things. So whichever way you look at it, what was once engraved in stone is now in the hearts and minds of believers
Of course its still a different covenant, under the new one ''law'' has been transferred from an external law and is now an internal law, and under the new covenant:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
Similar threads
