Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Not digging in to the original text for your self instead of just taking the word of the Amplified version is going to be a problem in some cases where the Amplified version get things wrong
A recent session I had with Chatgpt pertaining to some of the Discourse
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Not digging in to the original text for your self instead of just taking the word of the Amplified version is going to be a problem in some cases where the Amplified version get things wrong
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Same goes for any translation you may read. Having the Spirit is essential.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It showed that God does not tolerate rebellion and it will be punished. That was a local event in 70 AD, but it should serve as a warning to the world that when Jesus returns in 70 AD He will take vengeance on all of those who rejected Him (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) because God does not tolerate unrepentant wickedness.
So?
Why wouldn't He want to tell them when they would know that they needed to leave the city to avoid being caught up in the destruction of Jerusalem?
That is true, but, as I said, they would also need to recognize when they would need to leave the city and flee to the mountains in order to avoid being killed or taken captive when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Most of what He said related to being spiritually ready for His second coming and being aware of deception and false Christs and prophets, etc. But, that doesn't mean He couldn't also say a bit about what was going to happen in Jerusalem since He had just told them that the temple buildings in Jerusalem would be destroyed.
Exactly! Christ warned HIS DISCIPLES of the impending doom but did not tell them when this would happen. They believed every word that Christ spoke to them. So, knowing the destruction would come, but not knowing when you think they hang around Jerusalem for 30-40 years so they could be there to flee when they saw the Roman army approaching, putting not only their lives but also the lives of their famlies in jeopardy?
Christ gave His disciples, to whom He spoke, explicit instructions of what they were to do after He departed from this world. He told them to tarry in Jerusalem until being filled with power from on high. Once they received power from the Holy Spirit they were to GO OUT preaching the Kingdom of God in the name of Jesus unto all nations. They would have remained in Jerusalem only until Pentecost continually in the temple, praising and blessing God.
Luke 24:44-53 (KJV) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:19-20 (KJV) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
When Christ spoke to His disciples from the Mt of Olives, I don't believe they were as dim witted or lacking in faith or obedience toward Christ as the Preterits would have us believe. Clearly, they did not hang around Jerusalem to be there to flee to the mountains as 70 AD approached. Those who professed Christ and may have been there were most likely later Jewish converts to Christianity, but His disciples left the city long before it was utterly destroyed. They left when Christ told them to because that's when they knew through power from on high the things representing the Kingdom of God on earth of Old, had become an abomination unto God, and that armies of evil under the power of Satan having great spiritual power, (standing where they should not be) had surrounded the city and had become leaders in the temple, leading the people who worshipped there to spiritual adultery and abomination.
These early disciples of Christ recognized something of far greater danger than literal armies or warfare. They realized that the once holy place had become an abomination unto God when Christ was crucified it was no longer the place where one could become one with God. The disciples didn't need to physically see the destruction, because they already knew the nation had forsaken God, so He forsook them, leaving them completely desolate as Christ had said they already were.
All that Christ's disciples needed to know, He told them! The city and temple would be utterly destroyed because the nation had forgotten the One True God and turned to idol worship and practicing all manner spiritual abominations in His sight, turning everything He called holy into an abomination.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why wouldn't He have told them that? What Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse was not just for the benefit of the disciples, but for anyone who would read His words.
Why are you acting as if what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse was only meant to apply to the disciples? Any Christians who were still around in Judea and saw what Jesus warned about would know when they would need to flee to the mountains in order to avoid being caught up in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
I know and that's what I've been doing for the past few decades.
The Holy Spirit is THE Teacher and He does not lead anyone to use these so called "modern translations" because they change so much of what the Lord said in to lies.
This is why so many claiming to be Christian now believe God is OK with someone being gay, you know as long as it's in a committed gay relationship of course
Christ most likely did not give the timing of the destruction because proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God rested upon their shoulders. They must be about building the Kingdom of God. The message at that time was spread by word of mouth, which is why before departing this earth Christ choose disciples with strong faith and gave them power through His Spirit who would immediately after receiving the Spirit be about building the Kingdom of God as the gospel was proclaimed unto all nations. The New Testament Scriptures weren't available to the masses. All the early churches had were the letters written by the Apostles that circulated from church to church. There was no ability for the masses to read and understand until the Bible was the complete Holy Scriptures and that wasn't before 70 AD.
They weren't being warned to flee from the city! They were warned to flee from the holy place when they understood (see) abomination of desolation where it should not be. And the only holy place representing the Kingdom of God on earth since the cross is the church on earth. Christ did not want His disciples to be concerned about the destruction of the Old Covenant ordained to come to pass. Which is why He had taught them, equipping them to go unto all the earth preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God to ALL people! Christ wasn't telling them to watch and be ready to flee when armies surrounded the city. Christ was telling them to watch, protect and feed His flock as His Church grows. He wanted them to be aware of the dangers of spiritual evil that would come into the church, in the same manner Paul had warned before he departed from the earth. Christ referred to those who would bring the Old Covenant to ruin as armies, and here Paul calls them "grievous wolves". All symbolic language designed that we might understand the New Covenant churches on this earth, like the Covenant of Old can be brought to ruin if the people who are called by His name are not awake and carefully watching and tending to Her spiritual needs.
Acts 20:28-31 (KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
They were being warned to flee from Judaea. That included the city of Jerusalem which was in Judaea.
The abomination of desolation compassing Jerusalem was the Roman armies.
Why are you ignoring Luke 21:20,21?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, you don't think the gospel had spread throughout Judea before 70 AD? It most certainly did. And, I'm sure the message the Jesus taught about the need to flee when they saw the abomination of desolation and say Jerusalem surrounded by armies had spread throughout Judea before 70 AD as well.
Where does it say they were warned to flee from the holy place? That is not what Jesus said. He said when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, then those in Judea would need to flee to the mountains. Luke's version says when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then they would need to flee to the mountains. He was referring to earthly Jerusalem there, so they were told to flee from earthly Jerusalem and from Judea to the literal mountains in that area.
I agree, but as I've already told you before, the physical temple standing at the time Jesus was speaking was still considered the holy place for the disciples that He was speaking to. So, it was valid to still refer to it as the holy place at that time, regardless of whether it would still be the holy place in the future when the prophecy was fulfilled.
We obviously will never agree about this, so I'm not going to discuss this topic with you any longer.
Luke 21:20-22 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Jerusalem represents the specific city that had been called holy because it was where the Old Temple, Holy place of God, representing the Old Covenant was. Why would Christ tell His disciples they would physically see the city surrounded by Roman Armies and they should flee, because before departing this world, Christ had instructed His disciple to remain in Jerusalem only until they received power from on high, and then they were to "go out" unto all nations preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God? They had already left Jerusalem to go unto all nations preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God long before 70 AD.
Through the Spirit of Christ in them, they had come to understand the city and temple had become a desolate abomination unto God. It wasn't the Roman Army that brought Jerusalem and the Temple to desolation, the desolation came from the spiritual armies that had so infiltrated the holy place of God that had already made the city and temple desolate long before the cross.
Ephesians 6:11-12 (KJV) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
"When ye shall see" is not through physical sight, but see through supernatural vision with the mind/understanding/knowledge. It is in this manner that Christ spoke of understanding when evil that would make the New Covenant holy place, the Church, a desolate abomination from within in the same way evil had destroyed the Old Covenant city and temple.
The armies of spiritual evil that encompassed Jerusalem is not unlike Gog and Magog that shall encompass the saints, and beloved city, represented the Church on earth.
Revelation 20:9 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Judaea represents the entire region of Palestine. Once Christ was crucified the temple and city were no longer called holy unto God but had altogether become the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. The entire region of Judaea, symbolizing the twelve tribes of all the children of Israel, like the entire breadth of the earth during the time of the end, had come under evil spiritual influence, and all were in danger of becoming an abomination unto God, and the disciples of Christ with spiritual understanding would understand and depart out of the cities that they too would not be partakers with them in sins. (Rev 18:4)
Fleeing to the mountains, is to flee to the Lamb of God, Mt Sion for guidance and protection.
Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 21:10 (KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
The days of vengeance when all things should be fulfilled, began with the crucifixion and will not end until the last trumpet begins to sound. For then shall be "great tribulation" such as has never been before and shall never be again, as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, and then "all things which are written may be fulfilled."
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
His instructions were not for the disciples to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, but rather for "those in Judea" to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. You are not reading the passage in context. Whether any of the disciples were living in Jerusalem at the time is irrelevant. His warning to flee was for any of His followers (not just the twelve apostles) who were living in the region of Judea, which included Jerusalem, when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
No. They remained in Israel for a further 3.5 years after Calvary, taking the Gospel to Israel to round out the 70th week, after which they began to take the Gospel to the Gentiles as well. Acts 13:45-46.
It was the Roman Army that brought Jerusalem and the Temple to desolation. Luke 21:20
The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Christ was the Roman armies. Daniel 9:26-27; Matthew 24:15; Luke 21:20
The Judaean Christians fled to the mountains to escape desolation and preserve the Judaean Christian Church. Luke 21:21
The days of 70 AD were the days of vengeance upon apostate Israel.
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The prophesy of Daniel was fulfilled with the advent of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. In Acts 13:45-46 trouble arose from the Jews who presided not in Jerusalem but in Antioch in Pisidia, not a city of Judaea. The Apostles departed from Jerusalem and began their missionary journeys 50 days after Christ's ascension.Acts 13:14 (KJV) But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Just before his ascension, Jesus commissioned his apostles to continue the work he had begun. “Ye shall be witnesses unto me, both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth“. (Acts 1:8) The book of Acts shows how the work progressed.
Seven days after Jesus ascended, they began the work with the Jews at Jerusalem, at the Jewish feast of Pentecost. 3,000 Jews, who knew the Scriptures, came to understand that Jesus is their Messiah and were subsequently baptized. (Acts 2:36-42)Persecution, initiated by the Jewish Council against the infant congregation, caused them to flee through Judea and Samaria, which effectively resulted in the light of the Gospel being taken to other areas (Acts 8:1).
Through the activity of the Apostle Paul and his companions, the work was extended across the Roman Empire, firstly to Jews and also to the Gentiles, those who were “afar off” from God’s covenants of promise to Israel (Acts 2:39; Ephesians 2:12,13)
Jesus, realizing that His disciples were not yet equipped to the task before them, promised the gift of the Holy Spirit as a “teacher” and a “remembrancer” (John 14:26) to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). It also confirmed the work as being of God, by signs and miracles. The gift of speaking in unknown languages enabled the preaching to be undertaken immediately, as the Jews at Pentecost found to their amazement (Acts 2:5-11).
Thus, the Holy Spirit would guide the teaching and establishment of God’s Truth in communities or ecclesias/churches. This is clearly explained in Ephesians 4, where the apostles and teachers are equated to those God separated to be teachers in Israel of old. There had been two outpourings of the Spirit, at Sinai when Israel was constituted a nation, and now at Pentecost, when believers were called out to form the ecclesia/church. Ephesians 4:8 quotes from Psalm 68 which recounts the events that took place at Sinai. At Sinai “God gave the word” (Psalm 68:11). At Pentecost, God “gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.” The spirit teaching work was to edify and build up the immature body of Christ till maturity was reached (Ephesians 4:12-16), and the body “fitly joined” could operate in fulness.
Once this was achieved, and the books of the New Testament were written by Holy Spirit guidance, the Holy Spirit gifts were no longer needed. “When that perfect (state) is come, then that which is in part (the various gifts) would be done away” (I Corinthians 13:9). The word “perfect” is in the neuter gender, and so does not refer to a person.
Only two ceremonies were adopted:
1 Baptism Acts 2:38,41
This was as a result of a direct command of the Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16) and his own personal example (Matthew 3:13-15)
2 Breaking of Bread Acts 2:42
This had been instituted by Christ a few hours before his death, to be kept in memory till he came. (Luke 22:15-20) It was kept on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7), and was an integral part of the working together of the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:16)
“They continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers” (Acts 2:42)
The number of believers grew quickly and considerably, even to Jewish priests being converted (Acts 6:7). The opposition also grew. Jewish believers in Christ, were cut off from their brethren and friends and denied the normal social welfare support when they left the synagogue, so it became necessary to supervise the practical daily care of those who needed it. (Acts 6:1-7)
The Roman Army did not make Jerusalem and the Temple an abomination it had already become an abomination and made a desolation before they came (Lu 13:34-35) and removed the city and temple from the face of the earth. The words Luke wrote prove only that the literal army of Rome fulfilled the words Christ spoke, but Luke did not say when the Roman Army would come.
Work of the Apostles | KeyToTheBible
It is written in the book of the wars by Josephus that there were, noble Christian Jews still living in Jerusalem when the Roman Army came and accordingly fled to the mountains to escape the onslaught. These were citizens of Jerusalem who after becoming Christians were not part of the missionary journeys. If they had waited for the city to be surrounded by the armies of Roman soldiers it would have been too late for them to flee from the city. Because, according to Josephus the siege had been unexpected for these Christian Jewish noblemen still residing there.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Luke 21:21
flee. Accordingly, when Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem, unexpectedly and raised the siege, Josephus states, that many of the noble Jews departed out of the city, as out of a sinking ship; and when Vespasian afterwards drew towards it, a great multitude fled to the mountains. And we learn from Eusebius, and Epiphanius, that at this juncture, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem, and removed to Pella, and other places beyond Jordan; and so escaped the general shipwreck of their country, that we do not read of one who perished in Jerusalem. Lu 17:31-33; Ge 19:17,26; Ex 9:20-21; Pr 22:3; Mt 24:16; Mr 13:15
and let them. Nu 16:26; Jer 6:1; 35:11; 37:12; Re 18:4
General references. exp: De 28:52; Isa 64:10; Mt 24:16.
The days prior to and leading to 70 AD could not have been the days of vengeance "that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Because historic record proves not all that Christ had spoken from the Mt of Olives was fulfilled when the city and temple were utterly destroyed. Because according to Matthew all that is written was the beginning, not fulfillment of all Christ spoke, and the gospel of the Kingdom of God was not preached unto all the world for a witness unto all nations as the Preterits want us to believe.
Matthew 24:8 (KJV) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The following were fulfilled with the advent of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection:
Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease
The following were fulfilled in 70 AD:
Daniel 9
26 the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The people that destroy the city and sanctuary are apostate Pharisees and Jews in unbelief. Christ, Messiah the prince is the prince of the people (apostate Jews) that destroyed the city and sanctuary through spiritual adultery, fornication and overspreading of abominations that made it desolate before God.
Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Daniel 9:25 (KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The prophetic message from Daniel was fulfilled within the seventy weeks of years Daniel foretells would come. Daniel makes no mention to provide for another 30-40 more years of time for all that was written concerning Christ to be fulfilled. Threescore and two weeks as well as one week are included within the seventy weeks of years when Christ, the Messiah came.
Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
When Christ came the last Old Covenant year of Jubilee is also fulfilled, and a new age/era/time/day was established. This New Covenant time began with the advent of Christ and will not end until the last trumpet begins to sound that there shall be no more time given for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as the gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.
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