"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[amigo de christo]

I have to say Amigo...that we can debate some nuance or other.
But when we debate BIG issues that have been in the church from THE BEGINNING of Christianity...
then, yes, there's something very wrong and we are to stand up to such wrong teachings of this modern world.
It's just that I'm getting tired of standing up and would like to sit down.

HOW does anyone debate the fact that Jesus is God?
It's incredible.

You asked a good question . HOW does anyone debate the fact that JESUS is GOD .
Friend take a look around
and you will see even more evil than this .
For now many even debate the fact ONE MUST EVEN BELEIVE ON HIM TO BE SAVED.
WHEN error cometh in and error is not corrected , IT BRINGS ONLY MORE ERROR
as error just keeps begetting error .
BUT DUE TO TH E JUDGE NOT CARD , ITS ALLOWED to remain . SIN is not purged out
nor those in sin corrected and or removed . ALL UNDER TEH GUISE
that to expose sin IS JUDGING THE PERSON in sin . WHAT A LIE that one was .
WHAT A LIE was sold under the banner it was love and loving .
That lie was Its hateful and non loving to expose sin and or anyone in sin ,
BIG MISTAKE . THAT IS HOW SIN TOOK OVER .
WELL NOT ON MY WATCH . NOT on my watch . I will expose anything contrary
TO THE GOD who saved me . WE OWE HIM E VERYTHING
and we owe our neighbor TO LOVE THEM and not allow THIS SIN an ERROR upon them .

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL

This might sting a bit but you need to hear this .
Every time you bring them early church fathers into the mix
You are not helping this people . I myself have seen errors in some of them .
You need bring only what IS IN the BIBLE .
Plus you are going to have to break away from any church or place
connected to this ecumenicalsim stuff .
If not you will yourself wear out in time . We have simply got to return to THE BIBLE .
USE every word IN IT . bring it back to the simple again .

 

[saved by grace 101]

Here is what the apostle Paul wrote in Colossians 1 (WEB):

(1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother,​

(2) to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Pauls says his letter is from himself and Timothy, and he greets them with the expression "Grace to you and peace from God" and from our Lord Jesus, the Messiah. Now Timothy is not Paul, and likewise Jesus is not our Father - not God. As Paul also wrote, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (WEB):

(5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;​

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

Paul also frequently used the greeting, "Grace to you, and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:2), and also taught that Jesus' father was also Jesus' God, Ephesians 1:3 (WEB):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;​

as indeed the resurrected Jesus also taught - Revelation 3:12 (WEB)

(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.​

That's what the apostles taught.

The phrase "God the Father" occurs 14 times in the New Testament. The phrase "God the Son" does not occur at all (nor "God the Holy Spirit"). The Trinity does not occur in the Bible.


Ephesians 1:15-23 WEB

(15) For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which you have toward all the saints,​

(16) don’t cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,​

(17) that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;​

(18) having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,​

(19) and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might​

(20) which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,​

(21) far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come.​

(22) He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly,​

(23) which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.​

1 Corinthians 10:31 WEB

(31) Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.​

1 Peter 4:11 WEB

(11) If anyone speaks, let it be as it were the very words of God. If anyone serves, let it be as of the strength which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Jesus, our High Priest, prayed this prayer to God - John 17:1-26 (WEB):

(1) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you;​

(2) even as you gave him authority over all flesh, so he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.​

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.​

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

(6) I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word.​

(7) Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you,​

(8) for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.​

(9) I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.​

(10) All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.​

(11) I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.​

(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.​

(13) But now I come to you, and I say these things in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.​

(14) I have given them your word. The world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​

(15) I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one.​

(16) They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.​

(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​

(18) As you sent me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.​

(19) For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.​

(20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,​

(21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.​

(22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;​

(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​

(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

John 12:27-30 WEB

(27) “Now my soul is troubled. What shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this time?’ But for this cause I came to this time.​

(28) Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came out of the sky, saying, “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”​

(29) The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”​

(30) Jesus answered, “This voice hasn’t come for my sake, but for your sakes.​

God's name is YHVH (Yahavah). His name is not Jesus (Yeshua); that is His Son's name. Glory be to God Yahavah.

Referring to Lazarus, just before Jesus raised him from the grave, Jesus said, John 11:4 WEB

(4) But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This sickness is not to death, but for the glory of God, that God’s Son may be glorified by it.”​

Romans 15:5-7 WEB

(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,​

(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

(7) Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God.​

As God, Christ, Peter and Paul all refer to God as THE God of Christ, and these statements were all made when Christ was NOT walking this earth in a body of flesh, we could ask them, who is the God of the one true omnipotent God? However, an answer would be unlikely to be forthcoming.
In my experience, of over forty years in various trinitarian churches, this is only an internet thing. Only once did I hear a minister state from the pulpit Christ is God Himself and everyone should believe it. That was from a young assistant pastor fresh out of bible college
My best guess is, at least half the people who go to trinitarian churches solely refer to Christ as the son of God, not God Himself, and over 90% of them would happily accept anyone as a christian who solely referred to Christ as the son of God. However, they have the advantage of not making a god out of head theology

 

[amigo de christo]

Wait till inclusive law becomes law . if we think sharia law is deadly , and it is
IT holds not the power of the inclusive law . that law gonna hammer all who conformed not to its image
of what IT says is GOD and it calls love . AND BINGO if ya guessed that its god and its love
WILL SERVE THE AGENDA OF THE ONE WORLD RELIGOIN WHICH SERVES THE AGENDA OF THE ONE WORLD GOVT .
WE ARE ALL BEING deceived . Satan knows how to unify a people under what such a people
will beleive to be GOD and LOVE . Anyt hing that conforms not to its image , W ILL BE PERSECUTED
on a level of a tribulation so great that if it were not ended not a lamb one would be alive .
THIS is gonna explode my friends . . ITS GONNA explode . they have the system now
They have the religoin now
they have the power now TO DO ALL that was written would occur right at the end hour . They lead this people
into a lie they beleive will attain world peace n safety . BUT ITS PEACE IS OF ANTI CHRIST .
ITS COMING . And it has one common god
and one common love , and that god and its love , HATES And LEADS and WILL LEAD
this people into great war against the saints . YOU MARK THEM WORDS . ITS COMING and ITS AT THE DOOR .

 

[Davy]

Why are you embarrassed to try to help others understand the Scriptures?

Who said I was embarrassed? So you now think to try and USE that concept against me, just because you... are actually the one trying to claim it? That's ignorant.

You don't know about those Acrostics in the Book of Esther, it is obvious. Thus you're claim in your other posts with TRYING to make others believe you know, has been CHALLENGED, and you are found wanting!

 

[Davy]

Im a bit slow, are you saying the Spirit of God fully resides in Christ, but the Father is still the only true God and greater than Christ? If you are, I would fully agree with that.
The only disagreement on this subject then is the title of Christ, not his essence. Strange how people will like to condemn you for believing the title Christ laid down concerning himself to inherit eternal life

That's still wrong, simply because Hebrews 1 defines Jesus as "the express image of His person", meaning of The Father. And Isaiah 9:6-7, which is about the virgin birth child from Isaiah 7:14, has "The mighty God, and the everlasting Father" in Jesus' Titles there.

Moreover, Matthew 1:23 defines Jesus' Name of Isaiah 7 "Immanuel" to mean "God with us".

Also, Philippians 2:6-8 shows Jesus as "equal with God".

Therefore, Christian brethren should not simply cow-tow to what the unbelieving Jews teach about Jesus of Nazareth, because they rejected Jesus' claim to be God, and they also reject The Bible witnesses that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, which means God come in the flesh.

Moreover, there are several pointers in The New Testament to Jesus of Nazareth as The Saviour, a Title that The Father said through His prophet Isaiah that besides The Father there is no other Saviour (Isaiah 43:11).

What this means is that The Godhead is actually made up of THREE co-equal Persons; The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

This also is why even in one of The Father's Names in Hebrew, Yehovah, it is included in Jesus' Title in the Hebrew also, Yehoshua (means Yehovah Saves). So it is impossible... to separate Jesus Christ from The Father in the Spirit sense. They both are ONE, even as Jesus Himself said (John 10:30).

 

[saved by grace 101]

and they also reject The Bible witnesses that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, which means God come in the flesh.

Hmmmm. Im sure to you titling Christ God himself is a core foundation of the christian faith. So, why did the writers of the new testement not very plainly and clearly spell that out if salvific belief depends on it? Did they not have an obligation, if you and others are correct, to clearly and repeatedly lay out what salvific belief is? Did they fail in their duty to their readers? Or, did they not have the knowledge, you and others do today?

 

[Davy]

I believe Jesus is who he said he was, the only begotten son of God. You didn't answer my question
Jesus said the Father was the only true God and greater than he, in your view, would a person be cast into hell for believing that?

But Jesus meant that The Father was greater only in the sense of Jesus being born in the flesh, because Philippians 2 says Jesus came in the form of God, and did not consider it to be robbery to be equal with God.

 

[saved by grace 101]

But Jesus meant that The Father was greater only in the sense of Jesus being born in the flesh, because Philippians 2 says Jesus came in the form of God, and did not consider it to be robbery to be equal with God.

But Jesus meant that The Father was greater only in the sense of Jesus being born in the flesh, because Philippians 2 says Jesus came in the form of God, and did not consider it to be robbery to be equal with God.

Could you answer the question in the post you've responded to. If a person believed Jesus words that the father was the only true God, greater than he and greater than all, do you believe they would then be barred from Heaven?

 

[Davy]

Hmmmm. Im sure to you titling Christ God himself is a core foundation of the christian faith. So, why did the writers of the new testement not very plainly and clearly spell that out if salvific belief depends on it? Did they not have an obligation, if you and others are correct, to clearly and repeatedly lay out what salvific belief is? Did they fail in their duty to their readers? Or, did they not have the knowledge, you and others do today?

Well, I believe the New Testament writers did... spell it out, and very plainly I will say. Have you not understood those Scriptures I quoted? How can anyone get around that Matthew 1:23 verse which defines Jesus' Title given in Isaiah 7, "Emmanuel", to mean "God with us", i.e., God come in the flesh?

And with Jesus' Titles given in Isaiah 9:6-7 to include "The mighty God, and everlasting Father", how does one reject that?

And it is very obvious that Jesus was... indeed claiming to be GOD when He told the blind Pharisees that before Abraham was, I AM, the sacred Name which God gave Moses, and that is why those Pharisees picked up stone to try and stone Him.

As others here have already said, John 1:1 The Word was with God in the beginning, and is God, and Jesus is The Word that John was speaking of there.

John 5 reveals Jesus showing how He is co-equal with The Father.

And those are just a few of the New Testament references that prove Jesus of Nazareth as God come in the flesh. Hebrews 1 is a major Witness also.

But didn't you know, the unbelieving Jews don't study The New Testament, nor do they believe The New Testament, nor that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Saviour, come in the flesh.

 

[JustMe]

Im a bit slow, are you saying the Spirit of God fully resides in Christ, but the Father is still the only true God and greater than Christ? If you are, I would fully agree with that.
The only disagreement on this subject then is the title of Christ, not his essence. Strange how people will like to condemn you for believing the title Christ laid down concerning himself to inherit eternal life

You are good, faster than a speeding bullet...
Which side of the Midlands do you hail from? The East or West side, Nottinghamshire or Lancashire side?

And hello. from a friend..

 

[saved by grace 101]

Well, I believe the New Testament writers did... spell it out, and very plainly I will say. Have you not understood those Scriptures I quoted? How can anyone get around that Matthew 1:23 verse which defines Jesus' Title given in Isaiah 7, "Emmanuel", to mean "God with us", i.e., God come in the flesh?

And with Jesus' Titles given in Isaiah 9:6-7 to include "The mighty God, and everlasting Father", how does one reject that?

And it is very obvious that Jesus was... indeed claiming to be GOD when He told the blind Pharisees that before Abraham was, I AM, the sacred Name which God gave Moses, and that is why those Pharisees picked up stone to try and stone Him.

As others here have already said, John 1:1 The Word was with God in the beginning, and is God, and Jesus is The Word that John was speaking of there.

John 5 reveals Jesus showing how He is co-equal with The Father.

And those are just a few of the New Testament references that prove Jesus of Nazareth as God come in the flesh. Hebrews 1 is a major Witness also.

But didn't you know, the unbelieving Jews don't study The New Testament, nor do they believe The New Testament, nor that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Saviour, come in the flesh.

In what sense was Jesus the everlasting Father? According to trinitarian doctrine he is not the Father. Biblically speaking many were referred to as god's, Jesus himself pointed that out.
No it was not clearly spelt out at all. God, Christ, Peter and Paul all stated God was THE God of Christ, and all of these statements were made when Christ was not in a body of flesh
Paul stated though everything had been put under Christ it was clear this did not include God Himself. He also stated for us their is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. I won't go on, but it was not clearly spelt out at all.

 

[saved by grace 101]

You are good, faster than a speeding bullet...
Which side of the Midlands do you hail from? The East or West side, Nottinghamshire or Lancashire side?

And hello. from a friend..

West Midlands. And hello friend

 

[Davy]

Could you answer the question in the post you've responded to. If a person believed Jesus words that the father was the only true God, greater than he and greater than all, do you believe they would then be barred from Heaven?

You mean, you are asking if one 'believes' Jesus is NOT God, can He still be that one's saviour if they just claim to believe on Him.

The answer to that is NO.

And the reason should be simple for anyone who stops to think about that. Because to believe that just a 'human man' can offer us Salvation is impossible, even the blind Pharisees recognized that principle, which they viewed Jesus of Nazareth as just another human flesh man like themselves. And that is the gist of the matter, allowing one's flesh to deceive oneself, instead of believing what God says in His Word, like those Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 9:6-7 examples I spoke of which is Old Testament prophecy.

And those blind Pharisees in their day had direct... evidence of Jesus as The Son of God, as God come in the flesh. This is why more than just seeing with the physical eyes is required to believe. One's spirit must also believe.

 

[saved by grace 101]

You mean, you are asking if one 'believes' Jesus is NOT God, can He still be that one's saviour if they just claim to believe on Him.

The answer to that is NO.

And the reason should be simple for anyone who stops to think about that. Because to believe that just a 'human man' can offer us Salvation is impossible, even the blind Pharisees recognized that principle, which they viewed Jesus of Nazareth as just another human flesh man like themselves. And that is the gist of the matter, allowing one's flesh to deceive oneself, instead of believing what God says in His Word, like those Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 9:6-7 examples I spoke of which is Old Testament prophecy.

And those blind Pharisees in their day had direct... evidence of Jesus as The Son of God, as God come in the flesh. This is why more than just seeing with the physical eyes is required to believe. One's spirit must also believe.

OK, so If I believe Jesus words I will be cast into hell. Gotcha

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, Im not interested in your theologians and scholars. My point was, as you should know, it was not made official church policy until 300 years after Jesus died at Calvary Jesus was the one true God, and everyone must believe it. Please try and keep to what has been stated.

False.
The TRINITY was ALWAYS in the bible.
Both the OT and the NT.

You don't see Jesus in the OT?
You don't see God being the FIRST AND THE LAST in the OT?
Do you see Jesus being called the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA in Revelation?

Isaiah 44:6
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides * Me.


Isaiah 48:12
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

BTW,,,Jesus also said I AM HE....

John 8:24
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless * you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

I posted this in my long post to you - to which you did not reply.
I asked you I AM HE .... WHO IS THE HE?

here's the answer the HE is GOD.



GOD IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done *.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


It is JESUS who will render to each man according to his deeds.
John 5:28-29

It is Jesus who John is called the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA...
the FIRST AND THE LAST.

BTW
I do know, Tertullian wrote there was a time God could not strictly be called father for there was a time before he bought forth Christ, apart from that I just stick to the bible

I'm happy that you know something about Tertullian even though you say you do not care for those that the Apostles taught.

 

[saved by grace 101]

False.
The TRINITY was ALWAYS in the bible.
Both the OT and the NT.

You don't see Jesus in the OT?
You don't see God being the FIRST AND THE LAST in the OT?
Do you see Jesus being called the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA in Revelation?

Isaiah 44:6
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides * Me.


Isaiah 48:12
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

BTW,,,Jesus also said I AM HE....

John 8:24
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless * you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

I posted this in my long post to you - to which you did not reply.
I asked you I AM HE .... WHO IS THE HE?

here's the answer the HE is GOD.



GOD IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done *.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


It is JESUS who will render to each man according to his deeds.
John 5:28-29

It is Jesus who John is called the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA...
the FIRST AND THE LAST.


I'm happy that you know something about Tertullian even though you say you do not care for those that the Apostles taught.

You responded to the following, you should address it, not go on a detour:
'''Sorry, Im not interested in your theologians and scholars. My point was, as you should know, it was not made official church policy until 300 years after Jesus died at Calvary Jesus was the one true God, and everyone must believe it. Please try and keep to what has been stated.'''

 

[Davy]

In what sense was Jesus the everlasting Father? According to trinitarian doctrine he is not the Father. Biblically speaking many were referred to as god's, Jesus himself pointed that out.
No it was not clearly spelt out at all. God, Christ, Peter and Paul all stated God was THE God of Christ, and all of these statements were made when Christ was not in a body of flesh
Paul stated though everything had been put under Christ it was clear this did not include God Himself. He also stated for us their is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. I won't go on, but it was not clearly spelt out at all.

Oh, I believe The New Testament clearly... spells out that Jesus is part of The Godhead as The Son of God. The Old Testament spelled it out also.

It's not just the name Jesus, it's also the part of His Title as 'The Christ', which means The Anointed One, with Yehoshu'a actually meaning Yehovah's Saviour.

The separation between Lord Jesus and The Father that you... are doing is only confusion in contrasting Jesus having been born in the flesh, when Jesus existed PRIOR to His being born in the flesh.

Hebrews 1 makes it plain that all things were created in the beginning through Jesus, which agrees 100% with what Apostle John said in John 1 about Jesus being The Word, and The Word was God. Even Psalms 45:6 is The Father calling The Son, "O God", which is quoted in Hebrews 1:8-9. Even Jeremiah 23:6 and 33:16 refer to The Son as "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS", which in the Hebrew is about Yehovah-Tsidqenuw.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, so If I believe Jesus words I will be cast into hell. Gotcha

The above is for @Davy.

The problem here is that you do not understand the words of Jesus
or
you understand them but do not accept them.

And I've also noted that you do not respond to posts to you but only make comments.
This is because your theology does not work and is not in line with the truth.

 

[Behold]

Why did Jesus say I AM?

The Reason that Jesus told us that He is " I Am" is because He is identifying Himself as Deity.

See, if we dig into this deeply, we find that "I AM" is God's Answer to Moses Question.

Moses Asked God....."what is your NAME", and Jesus gave it, exactly as God gave it.

= "I AM"

So, this is one more proof text that Jesus is God, exactly as He was in this verse.

"Let US.........make man.......in OUR .........image"

So who is the "us and our"?

Its God the Father, and Jesus pre-incarnate when He was "the Word"... = John 1.........and "the Word was God".

"And the WORD was MADE FLESH (Thats JESUS)....and dwelt among us'""