1948 NOT a Complete Fulfillment of Prophecy

[Zao is life]

Genesis 15:18 — In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt [Nile on the west] unto the great river, the river Euphrates[on the east side]:

Operators like The Prophecy Club out of Kansas City and almost every prophecy buff the world over have been foisting the silliness of 1948 allegedly being the fulfillment of prophecy for us Israelis possessing the land promised to our father Abraham in verses like the one above. Evsn Johnathan Kahn has been riding that bandwagon, a fellow Israeli who has an entire congregation and nation-wide club of followers. Ever since that promise madde to Abraham, Israel has not ever possessed ALL that land.

Today we of Israel possess less than 2% of that entire expanse of land, but the montras and clichés keep vomiting out from the religious zealouts over them thinking they know what they're talking about while never once consulting the scriptures for themselves to see that the claims are false, thus them looking the fool to all the Bible students who take the time to educate themselves on prophecy and geography.

Discussion?

MM

And if true Christian Zionism has Christ as King on the throne of Zion and gratefully accepts the covenant that God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in His blood - the forgiveness of sins (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Matthew 26:28), then it means that "IF God was doing" the Zionism of the late 1800's to 1948 and beyond, then He was supporting rejection of Christ as the King of Zion and rejection of the new covenant in His blood.

The British foreign office (Lord Balfour), the League of Nations, the United Nations and U.S military might all helping to strengthen and uphold the whole enterprise, are not = God. If God was doing the Zionism upon which modern Israel is based then the state would not be in a permanent existential war with those determined to annihilate them.

Those who call the Zionism upon which the modern state of Israel is based "Christian Zionism" have no right to speak for God or for all other Christians (CBN news reporters etc).

Even so, I'd rather it (that little part of it) be in the hands of Jews whose ancestral land it is, than of Arabs.

PS: If the New Covenant has not come yet then Christ has not died and risen from the dead. I believe Jesus when he said His blood is the blood of the New Covenant given for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Once for all. Not "first for the Gentiles, then for the Jews", but "Once for all. First for the Jews but also for the Gentiles." The theology of the one who says otherwise is as warped as the theology that calls rejection of Christ and God's covenant, "Christian" Zionism.

 

[Wrangler]

1. No, 1948 was not the "return to Israel's self-rule". Britain, the United States, and even the United Nations, among others, such as the Vatican, were, and still are, all involved in the 'rule' there.

Perhaps you are ignorant of the historical record. The victors of WWII turned rule over to the newly re-established, sovereign State of Israel.

They actually created a two-State solution with Jordan and Iraq being created for the Palestinians.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

How does that relate to Joshua 21:43,45?

Judges 2:20-23
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

As you can see, taking a context, in isolation, thus trusting in the wording to be completely accurate in how we understand them in our language, without considering OTHER contexts that speak to the same land, the same people in the same era of their existence, the errors in our understanding becomes inevitable.

I hope that completes the saga for your understanding.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

As the word of God is spirit...it was really never a promise from God regarding the "land" per se.

The passage says "from the river of Egypt" (meaning: the likes of Gomorrah and Sodom) "unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (meaning: fruitfulness). Which spiritually is to mean: A promise of all that is firm--all creation--the whole earth and the whole harvest. Which is to say, this world and flesh and blood--all that is natural.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46​

When I see this level of allegory applied to scripture, allegory which is based so deeply upon no objective standards and rules for interpretation, I'm willing to leave it where it lies in the dusts of human inventions and subjectivity.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Thanks, your response has shot you in your foot, and where you are saying that the Hebrew context is not import enough to be a constraint for the English Translations like the KJV to provide an accurate understanding of what the Hebrew texts convey means that your facade of having understanding is very much forfeited on this forum.

That's one way to misrepresent what I said.

Whatever...

BTW

 

[Wrangler]

I agree that the complete fulfillment will take place. Absolutely, but it's not yet. preparatory stages are not fulfillments, but rather moves toward fulfillment. That was my point.

It's hard to understand where you are coming from. God did not give us bread because he did not give us the whole loaf?

"Preparatory stages" are, in fact, fulfillments of prophecy - certainly necessary prerequisites to greater fulfillments of prophecy. This is true EVEN IF all the prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. Why are you denying signs and wonders on the grounds that more signs and wonders are yet to come? What you're expressing is very strange.

 

[Adventageous]

Perhaps you are ignorant of the historical record. The victors of WWII turned rule over to the newly re-established, sovereign State of Israel.

They actually created a two-State solution with Jordan and Iraq being created for the Palestinians.

I think you have misunderstood what I said. I am not "ignorant of the historical record", and demonstrated that by the posts themselves with links. I never said that there was not a "State of Israel" (which has nothing to do with any of the prophecies in scripture as brought up by several in this thread). What I said was, "No, 1948 was not the "return to Israel's self-rule". Britain, the United States, and even the United Nations, among others, such as the Vatican, were, and still are, all involved in the 'rule' there." I then demonstrated that the "State of Israel" is not merely governed by 'Israeli', but various world powers, who both fund, support, dictate policies, aid with munitions, and own much of the land there in Jerusalem, and surrounding area, by over 50% (with the Vatican at one of the highest land holders under various institutions, sites, &c.).

 

[Wrangler]

What I said was, "No, 1948 was not the "return to Israel's self-rule".

And what you said is factually incorrect.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

And if true Christian Zionism has Christ as King on the throne of Zion and gratefully accepts the covenant that God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in His blood - the forgiveness of sins (Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Matthew 26:28), then it means that "IF God was doing" the Zionism of the late 1800's to 1948 and beyond, then He was supporting rejection of Christ as the King of Zion and rejection of the new covenant in His blood.

There's the problem with what you're saying. His Blood wasn't a covenant. It was a testament. Covenant and testament are not synonymous.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

BTW

 

[Nancy]

Still not a fulfillment of prophecy because MOST Jews are still scattered all across the earth right now. Additionally, Israel is occupying less than 2% of the land promised to Abraham that we would possess. Therefore, prophecy is not yet fulfilled. Perhaps this is the preparatory stages, but not the fulfillment. Total fulfillment is a false claim.

BTW

Hi @BeforeThereWas
A friend sent this to me and finally convinced me, what do you think of this article?

The 1948 “Prophecy” Is a Farce.

For serious students prepared to read carefully, watch all the material, and genuinely question the widely accepted claim that 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

janasutoova.substack.com

 

[BeforeThereWas]

It's hard to understand where you are coming from. God did not give us bread because he did not give us the whole loaf?

"Preparatory stages" are, in fact, fulfillments of prophecy - certainly necessary prerequisites to greater fulfillments of prophecy. This is true EVEN IF all the prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. Why are you denying signs and wonders on the grounds that more signs and wonders are yet to come? What you're expressing is very strange.

According to Webter's 1828 Dictionary:

Fulfillment:

1. Accomplishment; completion; as the fulfillment of prophecy.

This is the basis for my statement that "preparatory" elements prior to the actual fulfillment are not themselves the actual fulfillment.

I'm somewhat confused as to why that's such a problem for you to understand. The comparison you made between having SOME bread in relation to having the whole loaf...that's apples to oranges. I simply referenced fulfillment, which is the end at which the full benefit is realized. We have salvation right now in Christ, but the fullness of the benefits of that salvation will not be realized by us, or reached and seen by us, until after leaving this world and life behind.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

When I see this level of allegory applied to scripture, allegory which is based so deeply upon no objective standards and rules for interpretation, I'm willing to leave it where it lies in the dusts of human inventions and subjectivity.

BTW

You have your rules, and God has his, each to their own measure. "But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

 

[covenantee]

Judges 2:20-23
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

As you can see, taking a context, in isolation, thus trusting in the wording to be completely accurate in how we understand them in our language, without considering OTHER contexts that speak to the same land, the same people in the same era of their existence, the errors in our understanding becomes inevitable.

I hope that completes the saga for your understanding.

BTW

That came well after what Joshua described and declared.

Joshua 21:43,45 was promised and fulfilled years before Israel's rebellion and disobedience.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Hi @BeforeThereWas
A friend sent this to me and finally convinced me, what do you think of this article?

The 1948 “Prophecy” Is a Farce.

For serious students prepared to read carefully, watch all the material, and genuinely question the widely accepted claim that 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

janasutoova.substack.com

Interesting, and with the correct conclusion.

Thanks

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You have your rules, and God has his, each to their own measure. "But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

Sorry, but I don't see where you're coming from. Are you assuming that your rules for the application of allegorical interpretation comes from God? Please prove that.

Thanks

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

That came well after what Joshua described and declared.

Joshua 21:43,45 was promised and fulfilled years before Israel's rebellion and disobedience.

Please show the narrative that demonstrates the total fulfillment of that in the OT texts.

Thanks

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

No, your point was this....

"Operators like The Prophecy Club out of Kansas City and almost every prophecy buff the world over have been foisting the silliness of 1948 allegedly being the fulfillment of prophecy for us Israelis possessing the land promised to our father Abraham in verses like the one above. Evsn Johnathan Kahn has been riding that bandwagon, a fellow Israeli who has an entire congregation and nation-wide club of followers. Ever since that promise madde to Abraham, Israel has not ever possessed ALL that land."

These people and I myself believe that Israel's political resuscitation in 1948 was a significant prophetic event, restoring at least *part* of historical Israel. And yet Paul proclaimed that *all* of political Israel would be restored--not just a fraction of the original country. Not just a sliver of Israel would be restored, but all Israel, including the West Bank, would be restored.

It's interesting that Peter referred to modern Jerusalem (in his day) as "Babylon" when saluting Jews in outlying areas in one of his epistles. It's also interesting that the Lord, when He comes in His Second Coming, the mountain will split in half, which intimates a total change in the landscape in a cataclysmic event in preparation for the setting up of His earthly Kingdom.

BTW

 

[covenantee]

Please show the narrative that demonstrates the total fulfillment of that in the OT texts.

Thanks

BTW

Here's the narrative again.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree. Preparatory work, such as technological preparations and international erosion of national sovereignties and populace sways in attitudes and beliefs, all prior to that clock starting its ticking once again, all of that isn't a matter of it ticking away right now. We're still under the dispensation of grace, which will end at the rapture. Israel's fall put a hold on fulfillments of prophecies.

However, those who want to remain here to enjoy the horrors of the tribulation are those who are not stablished by Paul's Gospel to be caught up to meet Christ. Works-based salvationists who are not stablished are in for a rude awakening.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

BTW

Yes we are in the dispensation of Grace. But that does not preclude God fulfilling prophecy in this age to be concluded in the tribulation age.

We may see the one world govt of Dan. 7 before the rapture.

We may see the rise of the ten kings (horns and toes) of Daniel before the rapture.

Things like the anti christ, The church may see His rise and come to political power before the rapture.

We may see the building of the tribulation temple before the rapture.

We may see the gog/Magog Invasion before the rapture

All these are events that directly affect the tribulation period, but they could be fulfilled in the church age.

Israel becoming a nation, the restoring of Jerusalem, the shekel and Biblical Hebrew are all fulfilment of prophecy now that are defintively things that are prominsnt in the dispensation of the tribulation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, your point was this....

"Operators like The Prophecy Club out of Kansas City and almost every prophecy buff the world over have been foisting the silliness of 1948 allegedly being the fulfillment of prophecy for us Israelis possessing the land promised to our father Abraham in verses like the one above. Evsn Johnathan Kahn has been riding that bandwagon, a fellow Israeli who has an entire congregation and nation-wide club of followers. Ever since that promise madde to Abraham, Israel has not ever possessed ALL that land."

These people and I myself believe that Israel's political resuscitation in 1948 was a significant prophetic event, restoring at least *part* of historical Israel. And yet Paul proclaimed that *all* of political Israel would be restored--not just a fraction of the original country. Not just a sliver of Israel would be restored, but all Israel, including the West Bank, would be restored.

And that will happen at the end of teh tribulation when jesus established the promised kingdom to Israel. But Israel had to regain part of their land and recover Jerusalem in order to see the rest fulfilled.