Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[The Light]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

 

[Truth7t7]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

I'm Post Trib, No Millennial Kingdom

Yes the scripture referenced above is the same future event of the Lord's second coming

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving the existing heavens and earth by fire (The End)

 

[The Light]

I'm Post Trib, No Millennial Kingdom

Yes the scripture referenced above is the same future event of the Lord's second coming

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving the existing heavens and earth by fire (The End)

Thank you Tthuth7T7

 

[Marty fox]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

No I don’t believe so, the one in Matthew is Jesus coming in judgement in 70AD and the one in Revelation is symbolic for Jesus defeating all of His enemies with the sword of His mouth His word

 

[The Light]

No I don’t believe so, the one in Matthew is Jesus coming in judgement in 70AD and the one in Revelation is symbolic for Jesus defeating all of His enemies with the sword of His mouth His word

Thanks Marty Fox. Are you post trib, pre trib etc.?

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks Marty Fox. Are you post trib, pre trib etc.?

Post trib

If you think about it the circumstances and characters aren’t the same in each text

 

[ScottA]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

Sorry, this is not "opinion."

None of the return of Christ passages refer to events in this world, and only some of the so-called tribulation passages do.

In order to get a clear understanding of what is written, each passage must first be "rightly divided" as to whether it is speaking of worldly events or heavenly. Both are in the scriptures--each given in corruption--and each only "rightly divided" by the Spirit (incorruption, 1 Corinthians 15).

In the simplest of terms, Jesus gave the terms of all tribulation, saying, "In the world you will have tribulation." If you will notice--that is what I just said above. The point being...that is it for tribulation--everyone born into this world has tribulations, meaning the only correct timeline, is not pre or post or whatever--but is from the beginning to the end of this world. That is the frame given by Christ.

As for "great tribulation", there are lesser and greater tribulations, but none are greater than all the tribulations that Christ took upon himself at the cross--which was all tribulation from the beginning to the end of this world.

But men are prone to think as the world thinks and by its terms...which is were all the pre and post, theories come from--not from God. What I have told you is from God.

To elaborate and give confirmation (by the mouth of two or three witnesses), the apostle Paul eluded to these matters, giving the information, saying "but, each one in his own order." "But" if one leaves that "but" out--all that remains is the information on the timeline of this world--which only refers to half of the information (if "rightly divided").

 

[Zao is life]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

Of course they are describing the one and only coming of Jesus. The armies who are following Him have been resurrected from the dead / changed following the tribulation.

IMO for as long as Pre-tribulationists continue to conflate "the tribulation" with the wrath / judgment of God which follows it, pre and post tribulationists will continue to talk past one another.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It's a pre-wrath, post-tribulation rapture. Pre-tribulationists conflate "the tribulation" - which is talking about the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast - with the wrath of God which follows it.

Christ's armies who are coming with Jesus to war against the beast (seen in Revelation 19) are those Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

"Then the LORD my God will come with all his holy ones with him." (Zechariah 14:5).

The resurrection and the rapture follows "the tribulation" of the saints at the hand of the beast.

What follows the tribulation is the wrath / judgment of God being poured out upon the beast and his armies.

OR - in your opinion - since the verses describing the tribulation in the New Testament ALL use the same Greek word, what in your opinion is the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29? Is it the same as the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9?

How about the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21?

The New Testament mentions tribulation as the experience either of the apostles or of Christians in ALL the following verses:

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION [Greek: mégas thlîpsis] is mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

In-between the first mention and the last mention of GREAT (megas) tribulation:

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21.

Did you know that there are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation as something that is to be experienced by non-Christians?:

1. Tribulation and anguish upon all who do evil (Romans 2:9).
2. Tribulation upon the world when Christ returns, as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints (2 Thessalonians 1:6).

Aside from tribulation, the persecution of Jesus and of saints is mentioned in the following verses:

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

So where is a rapture before "the tribulation" actually mentioned in the New Testament?

Did you know that the New Testament uses only the word wrath to talk about God's judgment coming upon the world (not the word "tribulation"

- except once in 2 Thessalonians 1:6 where it talks about tribulation as the experience of the world when Christ returns, as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

Yes, they describe the one and only coming of Jesus. Why not? Scripture says He will come from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven (bodily and visibly) and doesn't mention Him coming any other time (Acts 1:9-11). He will appear only "the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28) and not a third time.

I'm post-trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I don’t believe so, the one in Matthew is Jesus coming in judgement in 70AD and the one in Revelation is symbolic for Jesus defeating all of His enemies with the sword of His mouth His word

Jesus did not come in judgment in 70 AD and the elect were not gathered at that time, God the Father is the one who brought judgment in 70 AD.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king in this parable represents God the Father. God the Father was the one who became angry with the Jews for their rejection of His Son and "he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city", not Jesus.

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus did not come in judgment in 70 AD and the elect were not gathered at that time, God the Father is the one who brought judgment in 70 AD.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king in this parable represents God the Father. God the Father was the one who became angry with the Jews for their rejection of His Son and "he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city", not Jesus.

Riding on the clouds or a day of clouds was a sign of Old Testament judgement, the verse below wasn't literal either

Isaiah 19
This message came to me concerning Egypt:

Look! The Lord is advancing against Egypt,
riding on a swift cloud.
The idols of Egypt tremble.
The hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friend @The Light, pre-trib here, and, Yes, your verses are for the:

One and Only Prophesied "Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ. However:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The 'pre-trib' rapture belongs to God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" - ie:

Further Comparisons / Details are here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Amen.

 

[The Light]

Of course they are describing the one and only coming of Jesus. The armies who are following Him have been resurrected from the dead / changed following the tribulation.

Thank you.

IMO for as long as Pre-tribulationists continue to conflate "the tribulation" with the wrath / judgment of God which follows it, pre and post tribulationists

Agreed. The great tribulation is when the Beast is killing Christians and the wrath of God is vengeance for unbelievers.

It's a pre-wrath, post-tribulation rapture. Pre-tribulationists conflate "the tribulation" - which is talking about the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast - with the wrath of God which follows it.

Agreed. There will be a pre wrath, post tribulation rapture. But there is more to it.

Christ's armies who are coming with Jesus to war against the beast (seen in Revelation 19) are those Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

"Then the LORD my God will come with all his holy ones with him." (Zechariah 14:5).

The resurrection and the rapture follows "the tribulation" of the saints at the hand of the beast.

What follows the tribulation is the wrath / judgment of God being poured out upon the beast and his armies.

OR - in your opinion - since the verses describing the tribulation in the New Testament ALL use the same Greek word, what in your opinion is the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29? Is it the same as the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9?

How about the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21?

I agree that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath occurs.

So where is a rapture before "the tribulation" actually mentioned in the New Testament?

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[The Light]

Yes, they describe the one and only coming of Jesus. Why not? Scripture says He will come from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven (bodily and visibly) and doesn't mention Him coming any other time (Acts 1:9-11). He will appear only "the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28) and not a third time.

I'm post-trib.

Thank you, Spiritual Israelite.

I want to add that the Word says unto those that look for Him He will appear a second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[The Light]

Precious friend @The Light, pre-trib here, and, Yes, your verses are for the:

One and Only Prophesied "Second Coming" Of Jesus Christ. However:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The 'pre-trib' rapture belongs to God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" - ie:

Further Comparisons / Details are here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Amen.

Hi Grace. Thanks for your response.

 

[ewq1938]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

Post trib. Matthew 24 is the very start of his arrival showing in the clouds and waiting for the rapture to happen while Rev 19 is slightly after when the rapture is over and Christ descends with everyone for Armageddon. The 6th seal is also describing the same timeframe but like Mathew 25, it's just a description not events happening at the time of the describing.

 

[The Light]

Post trib. Matthew 24 is the very start of his arrival showing in the clouds and waiting for the rapture to happen while Rev 19 is slightly after when the rapture is over and Christ descends with everyone for Armageddon. The 6th seal is also describing the same timeframe but like Mathew 25, it's just a description not events happening at the time of the describing.

So are you saying that the two verses in the original post are two separate comings of the Lord?

 

[Zao is life]

Thank you. Agreed. The great tribulation is when the Beast is killing Christians and the wrath of God is vengeance for unbelievers.

Agreed. There will be a pre wrath, post tribulation rapture. But there is more to it.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We also need to take note of what the wedding feast of the Lamb consists of - Revelation 19:17 - 2, as well as the fact that the saints are not said to be taken bodily "into heaven" following the resurrection / rapture. They meet the Lord in the air - and come back down with Him to destroy the beast and his armies - Revelation 19:14 - 15.

I agree that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath occurs.

* No one ever sealed a blank scroll with 7 seals. What is on the scroll was written before it was sealed.
* As the seals are loosed they each open our understanding regarding the events that were written in the scroll before the scroll was sealed - Jesus is the one found worthy to do the Revelation / loosening of each seal - opening our understanding to the events written about in the trumpets and bowls.

Revelation chapters 4 & 15:

* Four beasts mentioned in both passages.
* Sea of glass mentioned in both passages.
* 24 elders clothed in white raiment / crowns of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).
* Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

666 - 777 (STATING THE OBVIOUS - AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TEXT)​

The 6th seal leads into the 7th seal (and the unrolling of the scroll so that we can read about the events that were written before the scroll was sealed).
The 6th bowl leads into the 7th bowl (wrath).
The 6th trumpet leads into the 7th trumpet.

* The 5th trumpet is the first "woe" - it sees the opening of the bottomless pit.
* The 5th bowl is poured on the throne of the beast.
* The 5th seal sees those who have already been martyred being told that the full number of martyrs is about to come in.

666 | Armageddon |

6th TRUMPET - THE SECOND "WOE"

KEY SYMBOLS:

EUPHRATES - TIMING:

I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year. (Revelation 9:13-15).

FIRE, SMOKE, AND BRIMSTONE: And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;

MOUTHS: and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. (Revelation 9:17-19).

6TH BOWL OF WRATH (Chapter 16)

EUPHRATES: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

MOUTHS: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Jesus's interjection:

--- Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. ---​

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Revelation 16:13-16).

6th SEAL - REMEMBER: THE LOOSENING OF EACH SEAL UNLOCKS OUR UNDERSTANDING (seals put in place AFTER the scroll was written):

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?" -- Revelation 6:15-17.

777 | WRATH |​

KEY SYMBOL: Lightnings and thunderings:

* At the time of the receiving of the Testament: lightnings, thunderings (Exodus 20:18).
* Proceeding out of the throne in heaven: lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

* 7th Seal (Revelation 8:5): lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th bowl of wrath: lightnings, thunderings.
* 7th Trumpet: lightnings, thunderings, the Ark of the Testament.

* In Joshua chapter 6 there were seven priests blowing seven trumpets announcing the decree of Jericho's impending judgment, and the walls of Jericho fell when the 7th trumpet sounded, the 7th time the Israelite tribes marched around the city, on the 7th of 7 days.

* In the Revelation there are seven angels with seven trumpets announcing to the nations the decree of God regarding their impending judgment; and the cities of the nations fall when the seventh of the seven angels sounds his trumpet and God pours out his 7th bowl of wrath.

The seals are not the events. They sealed the scroll AFTER the events were already written. The loosening of the seals are the Revelation of Jesus Christ - who was found worthy to loosen the seals for us - regarding the events written about in the scroll.

The symbols and imagery seen in each seal when it is loosened, opens our understanding to the events (already written in the scroll).

 

[ewq1938]

So are you saying that the two verses in the original post are two separate comings of the Lord?

No, that one describes the very beginning and one describes what comes right after.

 

[Davy]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

YES... those Matthew 24:39-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures are describing the day of Jesus future 2nd coming to gather His faithful saints, after... the tribulation like He said there. Per Zechariah 9:9-10 there are only two advents of Christ Jesus written. His 1st coming was meek as a lamb to die on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe. His 2nd coming will be to take reign over all peoples and nations upon this earth as KING of kings, and LORD of lords, His faithful saints reigning with Him on earth.

And yes, I am Post-trib. because that is what The Scriptures reveal.

Moreover, the Matthew 24:29-31 gathering of the saints version aligns with the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him when He descends to earth per 1 Thess.4:13-16.

And the Mark 13:24-27 version aligns with the gathering of the saints that are still alive when Jesus comes, their being "caught up" in the air to Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him to earth from Heaven.

Then the Zechariah 14 Chapter continues where Paul left off in 1 Thess.4, showing that Jesus will return with those saints to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, which is where Jesus ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. Jesus is going to reign at Jerusalem with His elect gathered saints on the earth.