Since God is omnipresent, it means that He is everywhere present.
If hell is a place, God is there.
Perhaps it makes more sense that there is no eternal hell.
Since God wouldn't be in such a place.
Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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If hell is a place, God is there.
Perhaps it makes more sense that there is no eternal hell.
Since God wouldn't be in such a place.
As an aside, the KJV states Jesus soul was not left in hell(Acts2:31) the NIV puts it that Jesus was not abandoned to the realm of the dead. Many say in this sense hell can mean hades. Would you think Jesus soul went to the hell that an unbeliever who has rejected Christ must go to or could hell have two different meanings? I was just trying to figure it out according to David's words
Those are good questions.
Realm of the dead (Hades/Sheol) is the better translation.
Jesus went to the realm of the dead in the three days before His resurrection.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It appears you have not heard anything I've said but have cobbled a view from a position of deafness and blindness.
I guess that's a testimony to not seeing.
As you wish.
Okay, good.
Now if you can take the next logical step and see the references in the Bible to hell as being Hades/Sheol/the realm of the dead.
The place where the dead reside before the final judgment. (resurrection from the dead) Not a final destination for the wicked.
Yes, so the two places are different, yet the KJV says Christ's soul was not left in hell. Therefore, hell in this sense is not the hell that is the final destination of the wicked, we would agree.
So when David said God would be with him if he was in hell, that does not mean he is referring to the final destination of the wicked, would you agree?
That scripture has nothing to do with hell.
I do not agree that the final destination of the wicked is "hell".
Didn't we just establish that "hell" in the Bible is Hades/Sheol/the realm of the dead?
Not the final destination of the wicked.
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43
I would say the word hell can be used for both places, with differing inferences
Who is Jesus talking to in that verse? The saved or the lost?
If the lost, will they gain salvation by removing body parts?
If the saved, will one sin cost them their salvation?
What sort of hell is Jesus talking about?
The realm of the dead before the final judgment,
or what you call the final destination of the wicked?
As he says the fire never goes out, I would definatley say the final destination of the wicked
If that's the case, what point was Jesus making?
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43
I would say Jesus was warning people not to do anything that could cause them to become lost from him, over time, the initial stumbling could set events in motion that caused that
Nothing there about initial stumbling that I can see. Stumble once = hell
So, He was telling the saved that they could lose their salvation due to any stumbling?
They would face the same fate as the wicked?
Would removing a hand solve that problem?
Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
Should that be taken literally?
If your eye causes you to stumble gouge it out and throw it away.
Our eyes have much caused us to stumble, but I don't see any christians plucking their eye out because of it
Isn't that what you are doing by assuming that stumbling will put you in company with the destination of the wicked?
"Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect."
In context that means we should by be like God in loving our enemies.
Since God loves His enemies He would never assign them to eternal hell.
Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun
to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify.....the words in Scripture most commonly translated as “hell” are “hades” and “Gehenna”....neither of them are a place of conscious suffering.
The Jews were never taught about an immortal soul that exits the body at death and flies off to one of two destinations....”heaven or hell”....that is a pagan Greek notion that we find in all false religion. The reason being that the devil wants to perpetuate his first lie...”you surely will not die”, when God told Adam that he “surely would”. (Gen 2:16-17; Gen 3:19)
So what is death in the Bible? It is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. Souls are entirely mortal. (Ezek 18:4)
“Hades” is the Greek equivalent of “Sheol”, which in the Jewish Tanakh is translated as “the grave”...a place where all the dead end up.
Solomon wrote in Eccl 9:5, 6, 10....
“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward,For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;Nevermore will they have a shareIn anything done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [sheol] where you are going.” (NKJV)
“The grave” is a place devoid of life...”the dead know nothing” nor can they think or act or do anything to implement knowledge or wisdom. The Bible writers liken it to “sleep”. As Paul said in 1 Thess 4:13-16...
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” (NKJV)
The dead “sleep” awaiting a resurrection...they haven’t gone anywhere, and are completely inactive. This makes any teaching about life after death a lie.....Satan’s first lie is perpetuated and humans have invented places for the dead to go....just let the Bible speak for itself.
Jesus performed resurrections himself by raising the dead back to life....he restored them back to the life they already had, and reunited them with their families.....he will do so again only on a grander scale when he brings the rulership of his Kingdom to the earth. (John 5:28-29; Matt 6:10)
Those “dead in Christ” who are his elect, will be “resurrected first”, as Paul said. Only they will go to heaven to be “kings and priests”, (Rev 20:6)) ruling over redeemed mankind on earth.
So these arguments about where the dead end up, become silly when the answer is right there in the Bible.
“Hades” is “the grave” and “Gehenna” is eternal death from which no one is resurrected. It’s always been “life or death” not “heaven or hell”.
In Jerusalem, outside the city walls was the Valley of Hinnom that was converted to the city’s garbage dump.
The fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish....brimstone (Sulfur) was added to keep the fires burning and the carcasses of dead animals and even executed criminals were thrown into the fire for disposal...nothing alive was ever cast into Gehenna. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off...this is where imagination took over. “The fire never went out, and the maggots continually feasted.
To Jews, it was symbolic of eternal death. Having no burial site with their name and lineage displayed, these ones were regarded as those not worthy of a resurrection.
This is not only biblical, but reflective of God’s personality...what point would there be to such a fiendish place? How can justice be served when the punishment exceeds the crime? Only a sadist would have such an arrangement.
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I'd say you haven't come to understand that scripture yet.
If stumbling means "hell, where the fire never goes out."
Who will escape hell fire?
That can't be what Jesus meant. Right?
Thank you for what you wrote, but please don't send me too long posts, my attention span is not so good these days. And this is a subject I rarely discuss, but I will mention a few things in relation to a person being dead after they leave this earth.
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. 1Peter4:6
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. 1Peter3:18-20
How can you make proclamation of a message to those unable to hear it?
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Rev6:9&10
How can the souls of people who have died call out for vengeance?
According to Jesus God views everyone as being alive, including those who have previously died how is that possible?
Moses and Elijah met Christ on the MT of transfiguration and discussed with Jesus what would happen to him in Jerusalem, how did they know about it? I imagine you would say they had a revelation when they walked this earth concerning it.
Also, Abraham looked forward to Jesus day and rejoiced? How did he know about it? I imagine you would say again he had a revelation when he walked this earth.
So I wonder if the dead know nothing and are devoid of life in respect to this earth
Anyway its not a subject I consider much as it is non salvific. We will all know soon enough, some of us sooner than others(me for example)
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