Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[St. SteVen]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

 

[MatthewG]

Well, there are young people that are learning and getting their degree(s) in college.

There are still people who believe full well people are dying here and going straight into sheol/hell/hades.

That hasn't changed at all.

This is a fun debate, between a person whom has been in and through the bible even went to college for 2 years, but slowly broke away from following traditions and questioning them. (He was a mormon for 40 years prior.)

It's not about Evangelizing as much as it is simply sharing, and encouraging and building people up in faith that is the most important, encouraging to look towards the Light, rather than darkness.

And a failure to me in my eyes - is for me to know the knowledge that I know and not make use of it, is shameful.

Even in failure - Apostle Paul wrote that they were the scum of the earth.

It's always gonna be about the heart when this life is over and one is Judged by God.

However - Ecc 1:18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

All the best, STeven,
Matthew

 

[GISMYS_7]

Little men's ideas and opinions change NO truth===eternal lake of fire is very real.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

Dear St.SteVen,
During my twenties, I took it upon myself to try and evangelize my non-Christian friends by mailing them a box of books about Christianity. I remember one of my favorite books was "More than a Carpenter". I enclosed a letter in the box which encouraged them to read the books and treat them like it was another college course. I reminded them that eternal hell waited for those who rejected Christ. This comment didn't sit well with them and our friendships ended.

After I was converted in my forties, I realized my mistakes about trying to evangelize a person. At that time, I came to understand that the "Lake of Fire" is a spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. It is not a literal place where there is literal fire, and it certainly does not last for all eternity. All those who are cast into the lake will eventually receive "mercy and faith" from Christ and be saved:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

When Christ applies mercy and faith to His judgment, He will give the person the free gift of the Holy Spirit. The person does not deserve this gift, but nonetheless, Christ will give them this gift just as He gave it earlier to the Elect of this age. He gives it to them because of His grace.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

With the Holy Spirit indwelling a person, they will no longer reject Christ. All they will do is call Him "Lord":

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

A person's salvation does not happen as the apostate church teaches. Mankind has no "free will" ability to accept Christ due to our carnality:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All that the church can do is present the gospel by the "foolishness of preaching". The people who have been given the free gift of the Spirit will respond to it. Those who have not received the Spirit from Christ will continue in their rejection of Him. Salvation comes to mankind no other way.

To save mankind, Christ established an "order" by which all mankind will be saved and it requires TWO ages of time. In this present age, Christ is only saving those who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They are blessed and are His first fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are saved at "His coming":

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Those who are not blessed (which I believe is more than 99.99% of mankind) will be saved at the "consummation" of the next and final age. This will occur in the Lake of Fire. After Christ saves the last person, He will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father so that God may be 'all in all". Christ's reign (along with the ages) will then come to an end.

Joe

 

[Jane_Doe22]

People should come to Christ out of love, not out of fear. Hellfire based evengelicism is fear based and usually spiritually abusive. It is good that people are moving away from it.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus has more to say about the all to real eternal lake of fire than all others ==The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:40-43).

 

[FaithWillDo]

Jesus has more to say about the all to real eternal lake of fire than all others ==The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:40-43).

Dear GISMYS_7,
Your understanding of God's Word is carnal and not spiritual (1Cor 3:1-2). The things that Christ will weed out of His kingdom are the impurities (carnality) which exist within a person. When Christ's work is finished, all that will remain is the sinless child of God.

Don't you realize that all mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18) because we have all sinned? And since the penalty of sin is death, all mankind will die.

Because all mankind is headed to destruction, the only way for Christ to save a person is to give us a new birth as a child of God. This new creation is the "another vessel" mentioned in the verse below:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The spiritual process of destroying the old vessel and creating the new vessel is called conversion. The old vessel is destroyed by judgment (symbolized by fire). The new vessel is created by the free gift of the Holy Spirit.

Below are two verses which teach about the destruction of the old vessel using the "sword" analogy:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

All "flesh" (carnal mankind) will be slain by the "sword" (Word of God) and by "fire" (Christ's judgment). No one can avoid it.

Consider what John the Baptist said:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

The new vessel is created by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The old vessel is destroyed by the baptism of Fire.

You cannot be saved unless the old vessel is destroyed.

Joe

 

[MatthewG]

Also,

While I do not believe it is good to harp - God or Christ on people, those who follow him and in there interactions with others should by the spirit, but that doesn't mean to harp on them.

They should be able to freely talk about what they want, perhaps they enjoy studying rocks, or trees, or birds, or fishes, or like to go fishing or like to go out and camp, those are all find and good, maybe they like to tend the garden, maybe they like to read books of various sorts, or even enjoy the movie entertainment, or tv shows, or maybe they do like political topics and study into them.

People should be loved for who they are - and God loves them for who they are, coming to God and Christ though does help with the darkness in our lives that JEsus spoke about, which he will burn out by the holy spirit and fire.

The overall point is to love people, and if you are gonna teach, teach them what you believe but address that you could be wrong but it should be encouraged for them to look, and go seek out and read the bible and see what is true. Even going as far as to go get a Greek and Hebrew dictionary or even a Literal translation version which doesn't play around with words as some bibles do.

All the best, and that is my encouragement, Hell is done over with - but people are still being taught hell is still viable but it's not in the victory of Christ - and sometimes...

Just sticking with - waiting for Jesus - or it's either hell or heaven. The bible expresses it differently than the normal traditions of man which even Jesus spoke again.

Challenge oneself. Help others challenge their self - there is nothing more better than getting a better understanding of history, of God, of Christ, and all the subject matters with-in the bible.

All the best, in love, Steven,
Matthew

 

[Patrick1966]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

Paul warned about those that would teach a different doctrine. Nevertheless, most have been deceived into believing that Jesus is an unforgiving sadist that forces billions to suffer forever punishment. They believe in a different Jesus than do you and I, Stephen.

Galatians 1:8 ESV
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[Patrick1966]

Challenge oneself. Help others challenge their self - there is nothing more better than getting a better understanding of history, of God, of Christ, and all the subject matters with-in the bible.

Most of the people that post here on a regular basis are interested in doctrinal discussions. They arrive here with their own theology with which they use to try and persuade others. Their problem is that they themselves are unwilling to be persuaded. And so we have numerous, hardcore, ideologues, knocking heads here 24/7 and round and round we go.

 

[MatthewG]

Most of the people that post here on a regular basis are interested in doctrinal discussions. They arrive here with their own theology with which they use to try and persuade others. Their problem is that they themselves are unwilling to be persuaded. And so we have numerous, hardcore, ideologues, knocking heads here 24/7 and round and round we go.

View attachment 35231

Good evening, Patrick1966,

What does that have to do with trying though?

If the Apostle Paul stopped trying... the Gospel would have never made it to the whole known world.

All the best,
Matthew

 

[Patrick1966]

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Amen. Here is another.

Proverbs 25:4 esv
Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel

 

[Patrick1966]

Good evening, Patrick1966,

What does that have to do with trying though?

If the Apostle Paul stopped trying... the Gospel would have never made it to the whole known world.

All the best,
Matthew

I think we can provide scriptures but it's ultimately up to God to permit another to see and to understand. If they want to cling to the belief that Jesus is an unforgiving sadist then only God can help them to see the truth Fortunately, I don't believe such a belief is a salvational issue.

 

[Patrick1966]

Little men's ideas and opinions change NO truth===eternal lake of fire is very real.

See what I mean? Jesus reads this and...

 

[MatthewG]

I think we can provide scriptures but it's ultimately up to God to permit another to see and to understand. If they want to cling to the belief that Jesus is an unforgiving sadist then only God can help them to see the truth Fortunately, I don't believe such a belief is a salvational issue.

By all means, everyone is a part of the body some how.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27​

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New American Standard Bible 1995​

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12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For [a]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [b]any the less a part of the body.

16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [c]any the less a part of the body.

17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now there are many members, but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, [d]it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;

23 and those members of the body which we [e]deem less honorable, [f]on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,

24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,

25 so that there may be no [g]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is [h]honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

See what I mean? Jesus reads this and...

View attachment 35232

I think things like this are rude in the face of other people's beliefs. They are free just as well as you are.

Who is to say he is not a Christian believer just cause he is in a part of his life, or has been taught such things like this?

Are you God?

He is not lying also about the Lake of Fire - which is produced by God (in my opinion) and is in front of Jesus and his angels (in my opinion).

 

[Patrick1966]

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

This is one of many verses that demonstrates Jesus's true nature and NOT that of an unforgiving sadist.

 

[Patrick1966]

I think things like this are rude in the face of other people's beliefs. They are free just as well as you are.

Perhaps but I too am saddened and offended to hear others describe our amazing and loving creator as an unforgiving sadist.

 

[MatthewG]

@Patrick1966

While I believe God desires for all to be saved, and is willingly that no shall perish,

to just stay on the doctrine of everyone is saved. and that is doctrine is damaging, to a persons understanding of what the bible says, cause you are only able to stay on fail safes if brought up something like hell or lake of fire, cause it's just something that is stayed away from, I noticed that ya know?

But I dont doubt you as a Christian believer or that you dont have the holy spirit there is just some problems with just staying where one feels safe.

All the best,
MAtthew

 

[Patrick1966]

Who is to say he is not a Christian believer just cause he is in a part of his life, or has been taught such things like this?

Are you God?

I never said or implied that another is NOT a Christian. I just said that I don't believe one's salvation is at risk for believing that Jesus is a sadistic monster.

 

[MatthewG]

Not everyone liked what Jesus had to say,

John 6:49-70​

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New Living Translation​

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49 Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. 50 Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh.”
52 Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they asked.
53 So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you. 54 But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 I am the true bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will not die as your ancestors did (even though they ate the manna) but will live forever.”
59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus​

60 Many of his disciples said, “This is very hard to understand. How can anyone accept it?”
61 Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again? 63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) 65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
66 At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. 67 Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”
68 Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. 69 We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.[a]”
70 Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.”

These are just some of his sayings dealing with the people at the time.

Drink my blood, Eat my flesh, And also while in his private session with his disciples proclaimed to them all that one of them was a devil.

I aint calling anyone a devil here - the story and narrative of Jesus and his disciples is amazing to me.