Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

[Wrangler]

It absolutely refers to Jesus. What other "word" became flesh and dwelt among us?

Jn 1:14-17

See how you have to refer to others verses to ‘support’ the ambiguity of John 1:1?

How can a thing be WITH a thing and BE that thing at the same time other than your dogma?

 

[Button]

Is Jesus Savior of the whole world?

Yes. Just as he said.

 

[Keiw]

I don't think you are looking at this in a balanced way. Who says that people who are not Christians are rejecting Jesus?

I listened recently to Rob Reiner and his take on Christian nationalism. His take is that the political movement in the name of Jesus goes against the teachings of Jesus. I think he is showing more wisdom than many Christians....among those who are dogmatically motivated, but have no love for others...thereby disobeying the commandment and ignoring the clear teachings of Jesus.

In my experience, FEW actually know what Jesus teaches. Probably why he teaches-FEW will find the road, that leads off into life( be saved, get grace and salvation)- Jesus, an eye witness teaches, these last days will be like in Noah's day( 99.9% mislead)Luke 17:26-30-- Many are being told they are on the right path, but they are not obeying Jesus because Few actually know what he teaches. I share his teachings with them. They will not believe him over teachings misleading on the wrong path.

 

[JustMe]

So yes, it is. "Elohim" is plural. "One" is "echad or a composite unity. Let's look at it's usage:

Ex 26:6, 11-“the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit.” (echad).
2 Samuel 2:25—“many soldiers made themselves into one group.” (echad).
Gen 34:16 –“the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become one (echad) people.”

Num. 13:23 According to the view of the anti-trinity sect, when the spies went over into the land of Canaan they brought back one grape (Heb. eschal echad.) That’s one big grape! Can anyone actually think it was a numerical statement? It means one cluster of grapes. In Ps.133:1, the brethren are to dwell together as one (in unity). 1 Sam.3:17. They are called one company. 1 Kings 7:42, one tribe. 1 Kings 11:13, Israel is called one nation.

god, plural, is one in unity (echad [ekh-awd]). The “SHEMA,” as it is called by the Jewish people, goes like this: “hear (sh’ma) Israel (yisrael) the Lord (Yaweh) our god (elohaynoo), the Lord (Yaweh) is one (echad).. Deut 6:4.

There are two words for “one” in Biblical Hebrew: “echad” (composite unity--one made up of parts) yachiyd (yaw-kheed). The shema is sometimes used by some Jewish people to assert a numerical value for the Godhead to disprove a “Christian” notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse actually does the opposite. Moses could just as easily used yachiyd instead, which MIGHT have been of some support to their position. But Moses inspired by God uses “echad,” which lends itself to the plurality position. Consider some other passages in which “echad” is used.

A man and a woman who come together in marriage are said to become one [echad] flesh. There are two persons, a man and a woman, coming together in marriage, and the two become one. Obviously, they do not become an absolute one, for they retain their separate personages; however, there is definitely a unity there. No one is tempted two develop a doctrine of married couples where the wife is only the manifestation of the husband; we know better. The Godhead is of such a magnitude that it is inconceivable to completely know God, we can only accept what He wants to reveal through progressive revelation passing through the Old Testament and finally through the New Testament.

God called Adam and Eve “Adam,” or man, that is what Adam means. Often in the New Testament, the people were referred to as brothers, which included women. Another example is Ezra 3:1, where the whole assembly of Israel was as one [echad]. Although it was comprised of numerous individuals, they were all looked upon as one, obviously a united one. Another example is Ezekiel 37:17, where Ezekiel is told to put two sticks together, and they are combined to become one [echad] stick. These are clear examples of the usage of the word echad in the Hebrew text, which is the very same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4, clearly showing that it is speaking of a compound unity, not an absolute one.

Zech 14:9, “And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be--The LORD is one, And His name one (echad).”

In the New Testament there is a Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word for one. In Mt.19:5, Jesus quotes Gen.2:24 about a husband and wife becoming one flesh; the word used is hen. Jesus prays that as believers (plural) we will be one (unity) even as (Gr. kathos; according as, just as, even as) he and the Father are one. He did not mean our persons would be merged together in some numerical one, it means a unity corresponding to the plurality/unity of the Godhead. The God of the Old Testament is a united one. The God of the New Testament is a united one. This is what God being one means.

Jn.10:30 "I and my Father are (Gr. esmen, we are) one (Gr. Hen)," this is not numerical; Jesus is not saying he is the Father. They are not one person, but in nature they are unified. It actually reads, "we are one" in Greek the first person plural esmen means ‘we are.’ Again this is a unity in nature, not a numerical statement.

The word one in Greek is Hen and it is a neuter nominative so it refers to one in essence and nature, and kind. That he is deity just as the Father is. He went on to explain he is the Son of God and the Pharisees understood his claim of making himself to be equal with the Father.

It is the epitome of academic dishonesty to claim there is no evidence for a multiplicity in the Godhead.

Do you really want to drive down this road SW? Think about it carefully before you tread into some s#$@ and quicksand. I have some planned for you if wish to continue. And it will be a very, very short dissertation, although for you, it will bury you.

 

[JustMe]

So you say. Scripture says otherwise

2 Corinthians 5:18 The Voice​

18 All of this is a gift from our Creator God, who has pursued us and brought us into a restored and healthy relationship with Him through the Anointed. And He has given us the same mission,the ministry of reconciliation, to bring others back to Him.

I wonder if his pride will stop him from crediting you with the truth you have just presented to him? Judging from his past track record, he won't.

 

[Wrangler]

I wonder if his pride will stop him from crediting you with the truth you have just presented to him? Judging from his past track record, he won't.

No. He has his IDOL - he doesn’t need the truth because he falsely believes he already has the truth.

 

[amigo de christo]

So you say. Scripture says otherwise

2 Corinthians 5:18 The Voice​

18 All of this is a gift from our Creator God, who has pursued us and brought us into a restored and healthy relationship with Him through the Anointed. And He has given us the same mission,the ministry of reconciliation, to bring others back to Him.

the preaching of the real gospel . not ecumenical dung . That wont be saving anyone .
We preach JESUS and who so ever beleives in him is reconciled to GOD .

 

[JustMe]

Do you really want to drive down this road SW? Think about it carefully before you tread into some s#$@ and quicksand. I have some planned for you if wish to continue. And it will be a very, very short dissertation, although for you, it will bury you.

@shepherdsword I considered that driving through and hitting the quicksand, as I expected you might do, could be excessive and too time-consuming to dig you out, and you might jump out before then anyway.

Therefore, I'll use the "death by a thousand cuts" approach instead. It's better for both of us and more efficient timewise.

Let me begin at the top of your post and work my way down...racing away here as I'm late for other things to set up for tomorrow....

----------on Deut 6:4 and the use of echad – the unity in plurality (a compound found in one) versus simply one – not a compound intended-------

From your post...

Yes, "Elohim" is plural. "One" is "echad," or a composite unity. Let's examine its usage:

Ex 26:6, 11 – “the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit” (echad).

2 Samuel 2:25 – “many soldiers made themselves into one group” (echad).

Gen 34:16 – “the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children to become one (echad) people.”

In Ps.133:1, the brethren are to dwell together as one (in unity). 1 Sam.3:17 calls them one company. 1 Kings 7:42 refers to one tribe. 1 Kings 11:13 calls Israel one nation.

--------------------------------

I’m not sure what Elohim has to do with 'echad' in the verse in question, so I’ll set that aside for now—maybe for another discussion later.

These eight verses highlight part of your argument to suggest that 'echad' means a plurality in one, I suspect.

What do all these eight verses have in common?

They all describe different ways 'echad' is used to refer to more than one entity or person coming together to fulfill a purpose. However, 'echad' in Deut 6:4 is not about completing a purpose or establishing a new identity foreign to a Hebrew. It affirms the nature of the one person, YHWH, known to be alone, the one and only God. It identifies the one God whom the people should worship with all their heart, mind, and soul every day—not a union or assembly of multiple entities. The context, as they say, is truly KING, and I believe you’ve overlooked this quality control aspect when interpreting scripture.

Read the next verse, Deut 6:5, if you will.

(Deut 6:5) “And you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

Does this verse say or imply anything about multiple persons as one being? If, as you believe, 'echad' means unity among the three persons of God, why doesn’t the following verse instruct how to worship these various persons? Because it’s not about identifying or redefining who God is. 'Echad' in Deut 6:4 conveys the unique and solitary nature of the one God the people already knew.

The fifty gold clasps have one purpose: to maintain the tent’s integrity. After assembly, the same fifty clasps can be used elsewhere for another purpose.

Similarly, many men form a unit or group for a purpose and plan. After assembly and reassembly for different purposes, the same men can be used elsewhere.

Intermarriage among one tribe of many common people would ensure the tribe’s integrity as one people.

The same applies to the different purposes in Ps 133:1, 1 Sam 3:17, 1 Kings 7:42, and 1 Kings 11:13.

In your words: “A man and a woman who come together in marriage are said to become one [echad] flesh. There are two persons, a man and a woman, coming together in marriage, and the two become one. Obviously, they do not become an absolute one, for they retain their separate personages; however, there is definitely a unity there.”

I’m glad you made that point that they remain two distinct people in marriage. That’s what marriage is about—the joining of two for a grand goal and serving many purposes as if truly one echad, though they really are not. Just like the Messiah Yeshua and his God, coming together as one for a major goal and accomplishing many purposes.

Deut 6:4’s 'echad' is not stating a purpose at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good grief, why is it so hard to have an honest conversation on this board?

You did NOT state what I posted. You posted what I said, made an assumption, then made a statement based on YOUR assumption.
Nowhere in my posts will you find where I:

-stated that there are two Gods?

Those are your words not mine.



No, not two Gods just one.

By your logic though, can I assume you believe there are three Gods?

No sir.
YOU are the one that believes in two Gods.

I believe in ONE GOD....
within which are THREE PERSONS.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you AGAIN explained about how
THE FATHER IS GOD
and
JESUS IS GOD.

If I've misunderstood this very clear statement of yours,

NOW is your opportunity to correct your statement.

So...WHO is Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you waste virtual ink on the screen with petty accusations and wild imaginations?

'Beebster' can be urban slang for a person who makes animated facial expressions owning a pleasant personality.

And to the point, a Trinitarian Christian practices Trinitarianism. And the Bible does not teach this Theology. It is a mixture of philosophical thought grounded in mythological idol models dating back to Nimrod, and portions of the NT Bible

I'm sure @Beebster is a nice person.
We're having a conversation - there's no problem here.
He thinks I'm misunderstanding him...
and I think I'm understanding him just fine.

As to the Trinity being true...
you've posted YOUR opinion...
which you tend to do .

I can only respond to scripture and I don't see any.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is only one God.

There are three distinct Persons to whom Humanity shall relate to as "God".

Agreed?

I don't care for the fact that you placed God in parenthesis.

Other than that, Yes, I agree.

Humanity, or Christianity, relates to God as 3 distinct PERSONS because the bible shows God to be a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

IF the Trinity is not correct...
then we have three Gods.....which I'm having difficulty making another member understand.

The doctrine of the Trinity is found within the bible....
some sense had to be made of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually the bible teaches Two Persons in ONE Spirit...Father and Son. There are not 5 separate persons....or 3... just 2 (Elohim)
There is only ONE Holy Spirit....not a separate Spirit person apart from God who is God. God IS Spirit. And the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ are not separate .

Please provide scripture.
This is a new concept to me.

The Holy Spirit is represented as a Person.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

It does not state that we are not to grieve GOD...
or even the spirit of God...
It states that we are not to grieve THE HOLY SPIRIT of God.
Just as the NT states The Son of God.....so it states the Holy Spirit of God.

John 14:26
26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things

The Holy Spirit is referred to as a HE....
HE will teach you....

This is true in 3 languages, not only in the English translation.


John 15:26
26“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

The Holy Spirit PROCEEDS from the Father...
Just as the Son does.

The reason why man-made ecclesiastical authority requires a Spirit in name only is because men can't control the POWER of the Spirit. So the churches opted for a Spirit in name only....not in power or presence. So they could establish their own control while claiming to be doing it FOR God and in His name.

I like to discuss what the bible states....
not ecclesiastical authority - which could be wrong.

Not so. You are referring to the Roman government controlled council that established Christianity as a state religion.

I never mentioned a Roman Government.
If I EVER mention the Council of Nicea it's to show that a council CONFIRMS what a Christian teaching is and the Council of Nicea CONFIRMED that Jesus is God.....

amidst some gnostic sects that were teaching that Jesus was a mere man.
Some might know this as Arianism.

Acceptance of a trinity is based on a cultural version of a religion...not a living faith. It's about having God in name only....not in power or in Presence.

Only cultural believers....those who listen to men above God...will parrot a doctrine that was invented due to a lack of power and presence of God's Spirit in the church. People want control....and religious control MUST deny the power of the Spirit to keep that control. Otherwise the power is out of the hands of ecclesiastical authorities... And people would rather follow other people than God...as proof to the popularity of Babylonian dogmatic religion.

The proof is the religious certainty that people exhibit without any basis in the scriptures.

No sir.
The fact that God is more than one PERSON is biblical.
Jesus is shown to be God in the NT writings.
This has nothing to do with govenments or culture.
Believing the NT IS a living faith.
When we do NOT believe what the Apostles taught it is then that we have a dead faith.

Jesus is God.
John 1:1
John 1:14

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD. VERSE 1
THE WORD BECAME FLESH. VERSE 14

GOD BECAME FLESH.

 

[Lambano]

IF the Trinity is not correct...
then we have three Gods.....which I'm having difficulty making another member understand.

Do you understand WHY it is difficult to make them understand?

Do you understand WHY it is difficult to relate to distinct Persons as “God” without losing either the oneness of God or the distinction between Persons?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, my words have allowed you to come to that conclusion.

Yes we agree, there is only one God.

God is not a person.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

per·son
/ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   a human being regarded as an individual.

Since when is the dictionary used to explain a spiritual truth?

Please find out what a PERSONS is as is found in the Trinity.

The following is from Gemini.
However the internet ABOUNDS in explanations of Personhood in the Trinity.


In the Christian Trinity, a "Person" isn't a human individual but a distinct center of intellect, emotion, and will (a subsistence or hypostasis) within the one divine essence, meaning the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit each possess full deity but are distinct from each other, defined by their unique relationships (e.g., Father begets, Son is begotten, Spirit proceeds). They are not parts of God, but are all fully God, sharing one nature but existing as three distinct, co-eternal entities, crucial for understanding God's eternal love and relational nature.
Key Concepts:

• One God, Three Persons: There is one indivisible God (one Being, one Essence/Substance), but God exists eternally as three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• Personhood vs. Humanity: "Person" in the Trinity means having personal attributes (mind, will, emotions) but not being human or a separate being; it signifies a unique, subsistent reality within God.
• Relations Define Identity: The identity of each Person is defined by their relationship to the others (e.g., the Son is the Son because of the Father), creating distinct roles without division.
• Not Parts or Modes: The Persons are not parts (like the shell, white, and yolk of an egg) or modes (like water as liquid, vapor, ice) of God, but each Person is fully God.

Examples of Distinction:

• The Father is the unbegotten source, the one from whom the Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds, representing God's providential care.
• The Son (Jesus Christ) is the eternally begotten Son, God incarnate, sent into the world.
• The Holy Spirit is the one who proceeds from the Father (and the Son, in Western theology) and is sent into the world, symbolizing God's indwelling presence and joy.

Why "Persons"?
The term "Persons" helps explain how God can be love (requiring a lover and beloved) from eternity past, and how God can interact with creation through distinct roles, even though He is one.


I also quickly found the following...
but there's a lot more for those interested in learning their faith:

What Do We Mean by "Person" and "Essence" in the Doctrine of the Trinity?

A free lecture by R. C. Sproul, a diagram, and some book recommendations.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

What i find interesting that when I say the Father is God, the Son is God and that God is a family, you start counting Gods.

When you speak of a Trinity the counting stops at one.

Thats magic math.

Yeah and most of them probably thought the earth was flat too.

Not this Christian.

If you want to consider God as a family...
that is fine.

But the family will include:
GOD FATHER
GOD SON
GOD HOLY SPIRIT

And.....

UNLESS you want to believer there are THREE GODS...
then you're going to have to learn about the Trinity...
which is found in the New Testament and is taught by its writers.

 

[GodsGrace]

See how you have to refer to others verses to ‘support’ the ambiguity of John 1:1?

How can a thing be WITH a thing and BE that thing at the same time other than your dogma?

Oh the wonders of the Godhead/Trinity!!

Which some "Christians" refuse to accept.

God is infinite Wrangler.
Do YOU truly pretend to understand Him in all ways?

Could an ant understand a human person?
It's about the same...if not worse.

John 1:1 states that something called WORD was with God.
And this WORD was God.

Then, behold, this thing called WORD
became flesh.

This is found in John 1:14.

So WHAT became flesh?

And now we have to stick to ONE VERSE only to understand it....

So what happened to CONTEXT?

 

[Lambano]

In the Christian Trinity, a "Person" isn't a human individual but a distinct center of intellect, emotion, and will (a subsistence or hypostasis) within the one divine essence, meaning the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit each possess full deity but are distinct from each other, defined by their unique relationships (e.g., Father begets, Son is begotten, Spirit proceeds).

Note that we had to change the term “God” to mean “an essence”. The Nicene fathers used the term “ousia”, or “substance”, though it meant more than that. (And I shouldn’t have dropped that classical philosophy class in college.) This category change is why I put the term “God” in quotation marks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you understand WHY it is difficult to make them understand?

Do you understand WHY it is difficult to relate to distinct Persons as “God” without losing either the oneness of God or the distinction between Persons?

Lambano...the Trinity was not easy for me to understand.
I just accepted that this is what the early church taught...
That would be Jesus, all the writers, which would be Paul, the Apostles,
and those that the Apostles taught also referred to Jesus as God.

At some point I really understood it.
How?
John 1:1 and John 1:14

I don't know what could be more clear.
This is simple to understand and we can forgo all the philosophical talk of essence and Person, etc.

"Things" that were IN God and were GOD somehow became a Person.

If we want to believe that God is all-powerful and sovereign then we must accept that He can do ANYTHING.

It's become easy for me.
Not even any need to post about blasphemy, the tearing of robes, statements by the writers, etc.

Although, yes, all Christian beliefs must be based on the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

Note that we had to change the term “God” to mean “an essence”. The Nicene fathers used the term “ousia”, or “substance”, though it meant more than that. (And I shouldn’t have dropped that classical philosophy class in college.) This category change is why I put the term “God” in quotation marks.

Well Lambano,
I'm not sure I really understand the difference between essence and substance in this regard.
I haven't taken any philosophy classes but, yeah, I'm trusting the Apostles for everything.
Some may think they're trusting Jesus...
but He's presented to us by the Apostles...
so who are we trusting? (for history, not salvation).

(must include Paul and Luke in the mix).

 

[Lambano]

Relations Define Identity: The identity of each Person is defined by their relationship to the others (e.g., the Son is the Son because of the Father), creating distinct roles without division.

Now let’s apply this principle to the relationship between Humans and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[GodsGrace]

Note that we had to change the term “God” to mean “an essence”. The Nicene fathers used the term “ousia”, or “substance”, though it meant more than that. (And I shouldn’t have dropped that classical philosophy class in college.) This category change is why I put the term “God” in quotation marks.

God would have to be essence.
He certainly is not physical.
Does He have substance?

Any material that possesses physical properties is called a substance. The word also refers to the gist or main idea of something.

Jesus has substance.
Does He STILL possess substance?

Too much for my tiny brain.