Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[St. SteVen]

So I wonder if the dead know nothing and are devoid of life in respect to this earth

Right.
The same verse says they have "no further reward and even their name is forgotten."
Is that true? (nope)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Right.
The same verse says they have "no further reward and even their name is forgotten."
Is that true? (nope)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

So how could Christ make proclamation of the message to those who had previously died? And the rest of my examples? If I understand you correctly

 

[St. SteVen]

So how could Christ make proclamation of the message to those who had previously died? And the rest of my examples? If I understand you correctly

I suppose it is obvious that if "the dead know nothing" (unconscious nonexistence)
then He could not make proclamation to them. But He did in fact make proclamation to them.
And more than that, He "took captivity captive", that is, led them out of the realm of the dead.

It might be worthwhile for you to do a search in the NIV for the term "realm of the dead".
Some of those references make it very clear that the "dead" are able to hear and speak.
Even the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus illustrates such.

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[saved by grace 101]

I suppose it is obvious that if "the dead know nothing" (unconscious nonexistence)
then He could not make proclamation to them. But He did in fact make proclamation to them.
And more than that, He "took captivity captive", that is, led them out of the realm of the dead.

It might be worthwhile for you to do a search in the NIV for the term "realm of the dead".
Some of those references make it very clear that the "dead" are able to hear and speak.
Even the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus illustrates such.

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

Sorry, I didnt know you believed the dead could hear and speak, we agree on that then

 

[St. SteVen]

So how could Christ make proclamation of the message to those who had previously died? And the rest of my examples? If I understand you correctly

In the account of the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were there.
The best evidence is that Peter wanted to build three shelters for them.
Why would you offer to build shelters for figures in a vision?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for what you wrote, but please don't send me too long posts, my attention span is not so good these days. And this is a subject I rarely discuss, but I will mention a few things in relation to a person being dead after they leave this earth.

If I may, I will address your points. I will split them up so that you can evaluate the response at your leisure.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. 1Peter4:6

Understanding the difference between “soul” and “spirit” is key to the interpretation you prefer....one that agrees with “immortality of the soul”.....adopted by Christendom from Greek philosophy, not the Bible.
If you consider them as one as one and the same thing, you will never understand what Scripture means when it speaks of either.
I’ll take each Scripture one at a time....

 

[Aunty Jane]

He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. 1Peter3:18-20

How can you make proclamation of a message to those unable to hear it?

Jesus died a human death, but was not made alive in human form. He was raised with a spirit body in order to return to his Father in the spirit realm, which is heaven. But that is not what happens to everyone because not everyone is “chosen” (elected) for life in heaven. Only the elect will rule with Christ in heaven, so they too will be raised with a spirit body. (Rev 20:6)

As a spirit, after his resurrection, Jesus went to the spirit realm to deliver a judgment to “the spirits in prison”, identified as those who were disobedient in Noah’s day. If you read the account, you will see that rebel angels were responsible for the awful state of affairs among the humans, so God brought a flood on the earth to destroy the human rebels and to force the angelic rebels back to the spirit realm, to a prison- like state called “Tartarus”. It was to these spirits that Jesus delivered his judgment message.

After the flood, there is no mention of the demons (rebel spirits) materialising again, even though faithful angels continued to do so. As a spirit, Jesus too could materialise after his resurrection, which explains his “appearances” to his disciples after that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Rev6:9&10

How can the souls of people who have died call out for vengeance?

Do we imagine that these “souls” are in heaven sitting under an alter for 2000 years?

Realistically, and in keeping with Bible teaching, no “souls” are in heaven because “souls” are living, breathing creatures, who inhabit the earth...they are not “spirits”.

As the Revelation was given in “signs” or in symbolic language, the “souls” in this vision are not resurrected humans, but are the symbol of all the martyrs who gave their Ives for their faith, some of whom have been dead for thousands of years.

Just as it says in Revelation 18:24...speaking of the judgment on Babylon the great” it says...
“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” (NASB)
Babylon the great is responsible for all the bloodshed that has taken place on this earth. So who does this immoral woman represent? What was original Babylon noted for? This “Babylon” has an even worse track record.

 

[Aunty Jane]

According to Jesus God views everyone as being alive, including those who have previously died how is that possible?

Luke tells us that as far as God is concerned, when referring to his ancient servants, “they are all living to him”. (Luke 20:38)
As the one with the power of the resurrection, it is as though they are just a call away from living again. As far as God is concerned they are just “sleeping” as Paul said in 1 Thess 4:13.

Jesus too said that his friend Lazarus was “asleep” and that he was going to “awaken” him. (John 11:11-14)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Moses and Elijah met Christ on the MT of transfiguration and discussed with Jesus what would happen to him in Jerusalem, how did they know about it? I imagine you would say they had a revelation when they walked this earth concerning it.

Was this a resurrection of Moses and Elijah? Or were the disciples privy to a vision?
The transfiguration was given to Peter, James and John In fulfilment of a promise that Jesus gave....”Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

This is what the transfiguration was all about....and Jesus said as they descended the mountain the next day...”Tell the vision to no one until until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”
So were Moses and Elijah granted an early resurrection, and if so, where did they go after the vision was finished?

These are Jews, don’t forget, with no notion of an immortal soul...they believed only in “the resurrection” and at that stage only in an earthly resurrection. But they saw Jesus in his glorious state and must have been overwhelmed by the experience....so real that they wanted to accommodate them with tents.
It wasn’t a delusion or an hallucination....it was a shared “vision” (@St. SteVen )

Visions are representations of a reality, so would the presence of Moses not represent the Law?
And would Elijah’s presence not represent the Prophets...?
There was the king of God’s Kingdom, standing with the Law and the Prophets by which he had always directed his people, pictured in a glorious vision. The “Son of man” fulfilled what was written in “the Law and the Prophets”.

Also, Abraham looked forward to Jesus day and rejoiced? How did he know about it? I imagine you would say again he had a revelation when he walked this earth.
So I wonder if the dead know nothing and are devoid of life in respect to this earth

Abraham communed with his God and always followed his directions. He knew about the coming Messiah and rejoiced at the prospect of his rulership, as we still do.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Anyway its not a subject I consider much as it is non salvific. We will all know soon enough, some of us sooner than others(me for example)

Everything is salvic, because there is only one truth. Anything that is not truth is a lie, and God hates lies, and those who teach them will not fare well.

God’s spirit does not speak with a forked tongue, giving his truth to one group, but then giving a different truth to another.....what results is confusion and that is something that satan loves....the one who does speak with a forked tongue.

When we consider that Jesus himself foretold that “weeds” would be sown by “the devil” in amongst the “wheat” that he had sown, shouldn’t we be concerned that we have not been influenced by the “weeds” instead of the “wheat”, who at this “time of the end” are greatly outnumbered? (Matt 7:13-14)
Believing because of majority view is a trap. God has never been with the majority in this world which he “delivered” over to the devil. (Luke 4:5-7) Satan has the confused majority.

We all know what “weeds” do in a garden left unattended, or who have lazy gardeners....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Right.
The same verse says they have "no further reward and even their name is forgotten."
Is that true? (nope)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

I don’t think you understand what Solomon wrote from his Jewish perspective.

When he said that “the dead know nothing”, he contrasted that with the knowledge that the living can expect death. Those alive are conscious, but the dead are not.

Even in your assumption that the “reward” they have taken from them is skewed....it simply means that they have no “wages” meaning that they can no longer work or do anything to receive a material reward. And their names are forgotten for the majority of mankind who have no idea who their ancestors were.

After grandparents and great grandparents the ancestry is most commonly lost. Do you know where your great-great-great grandparents are buried and what their names were? The majority of those long dead, is also long forgotten.

It goes on to say...
“Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.” (Eccl 9:6 NIV)

“Under the sun” is in this life....and do we expect that the dead, if still alive, are devoid of emotions? Especially “love”?
Then it says....in verse 10...
“Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, (Sheol) where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (NIV)

What did Jews in Solomon’s time consider to be “the realm of the dead”...that notion is taken from a later inclusion in apostate Judaism. In their apostasy the corrupted Jews also adopted belief in an afterlife. Their ancestors did not believe in an immortal soul.
Refer to the Jewish Tanakh and “Sheol” is translated as “the grave”....nothing more sinister or confusing than that.

So not so straightforward after all....

 

[quietthinker]

hahahaha.....this is funny AJ. @saved by grace 101 has ask you to keep your posts short because of his poor attention span, so you write him a thesis broken up into six posts......ahhhhhhh, I'm sorry you haven't heard. Perhaps it's like preaching the Gospel to the dead?
Oddly, some hear and some don't as we are all dead in our sins, but hear this (is it possible) we have been made alive together with Christ when HE rose from the dead. (Ephesians 2:5)

Edit. Oooops, seven, awaiting further instalments

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

I don’t think you understand what Solomon wrote from his Jewish perspective.

In addition to the dead knowing nothing, do they also...
"have no further reward and even their name is forgotten."?

 

[Aunty Jane]

hahahaha.....this is funny AJ. @saved by grace 101 has ask you to keep your posts short because of his poor attention span, so you write him a thesis broken up into six posts......ahhhhhhh, I'm sorry you haven't heard. Perhaps it's like preaching the Gospel to the dead?
Oddly, some hear and some don't as we are all dead in our sins, but hear this (is it possible) we have been made alive together with Christ when HE rose from the dead. (Ephesians 2:5)

Edit. Oooops, seven, awaiting further instalments

Triggered again QT....if you don’t like what I write, don’t read it. All you do is criticise and add nothing to any discussion except your own flawed point of view.....tell someone who might care about your viewpoint....I really find no value in any of it probably because I understand so little of what you write.

The truth doesn’t require 2 paragraphs or less...a child does.

Sarcasm is an indication of a poor spirit....with nothing of value to say....shoot down the other guy who makes you look inadequate.....cheap shots are all you have. I’m done with you....

 

[saved by grace 101]

Jesus died a human death, but was not made alive in human form. He was raised with a spirit body in order to return to his Father in the spirit realm, which is heaven.

Are you saying Jesus returned to Heaven when he died at Calvary?

 

[Aunty Jane]

St. SteVen said:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

In addition to the dead knowing nothing, do they also...
"have no further reward and even their name is forgotten."?

I explained that already... post #838.

“So what is death in the Bible? It is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. Souls are entirely mortal. (Ezek 18:4)

“Hades” is the Greek equivalent of “Sheol”, which in the Jewish Tanakh is translated as “the grave”...a place where all the dead end up.

Solomon wrote in Eccl 9:5, 6, 10....
“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [sheol] where you are going.” (NKJV)

“The grave” is a place devoid of life...”the dead know nothing” nor can they think or act or do anything to implement knowledge or wisdom. The Bible writers liken it to “sleep”. As Paul said in 1 Thess 4:13-16...

“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” (NKJV)

The dead “sleep” awaiting a resurrection...they haven’t gone anywhere, and are completely inactive. This makes any teaching about life after death a lie.....Satan’s first lie is perpetuated and humans have invented places for the dead to go....just let the Bible speak for itself.

Jesus performed resurrections himself by raising the dead back to life....he restored them back to the life they already had, and reunited them with their families.....he will do so again only on a grander scale when he brings the rulership of his Kingdom to the earth. (John 5:28-29; Matt 6:10)

Those “dead in Christ” who are his elect, will be “resurrected first”, as Paul said. Only they will go to heaven to be “kings and priests”, (Rev 20:6)) ruling over redeemed mankind on earth.

So these arguments about where the dead end up, become silly when the answer is right there in the Bible.
“Hades” is “the grave” and “Gehenna” is eternal death from which no one is resurrected. It’s always been “life or death” not “heaven or hell”.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you saying Jesus returned to Heaven when he died at Calvary?

No...he was raised in a spirit body and “appeared” to his disciples for 40 days before ascending to heaven.
He did not stay with them as he had for the previous three and a half years. He did not have a soul...the “soul” Jesus who died, was actually dead, and his God raised him on the third day. He was buried and confined to his tomb for three days before his resurrection, just as Jesus said Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Everything is salvic, because there is only one truth. Anything that is not truth is a lie, and God hates lies, and those who teach them will not fare well.

According to Paul, if a person believes they should avoid the levitical unclean foods, for them they should avoid them, though he knew all food was clean. Same as holding one day more sacred than another or viewing every day alike. He referred to these things as ''disputable matters'' Rom14:1.
So it seems Paul found leeway.
At the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 you had people who insisted gentiles obey all of Torah and were circumcised, Paul was also there and he said people who circumcised were mutilators of the flesh. All part of one church, all accepted as believers, so I don't think we can say the differences of opinion were salvific

 

[saved by grace 101]

No...he was raised in a spirit body and “appeared” to his disciples for 40 days before ascending to heaven.
He did not stay with them as he had for the previous three and a half years. He did not have a soul...the “soul” Jesus who died, was actually dead, and his God raised him on the third day. He was buried and confined to his tomb for three days before his resurrection, just as Jesus said Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish.

OK, well I read what you wrote, I think we had better leave it there