Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

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Wrangler

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When the OT or the NT speak about GOD, LORD, JEHOVAH, YAHWEH - or whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty - it is always referring to the ONE AND ONLY GOD
YHWH is the only and eternal name of the only true God of the Bible. Not sure where this insolent "whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty" comes from.

Yahweh ... is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
Ex 3:15
 

JustMe

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However, when an Eternal Being takes on a body, and offers that body in death, that Eternal Being, though having given that body to death, remains eternal.

This is what Hebrews presents.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The wording is very specific.

Much love!
Your opening remark is quite telling. It deliberately extends and reintroduces one of the most commonly known and distorted translations of a section of scripture from the New Testament. I presume this is done to support and promote your belief in the idea of an impossible incarnate Son of God.

There is no real truth that Yeshua or even his Father 'took on' a body, as if this were an extraordinary or unnatural act of human creation and birth, especially for Yeshua himself. This reflects Greek mythological thinking.

And why do you believe these words were intended to be placed in these scripture passages below in the first place, as they don't make in sense.

Allow me to explain.

Your initial words reflect the error found in Hebrews 10:5c when compared to the original meaning in Psalm 40:6b. This is a well-known forgery, and unfortunately, all modern translations include this misleading Hebraic idiom, deliberately misused to back the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation of the Old Testament, introduced this intentional error. The so-called seventy Hebrew-knowledgeable Jewish elders who translated the Torah into Greek by the end of the 3rd century AD were influenced by late pre-Catholic figures of the same period, who were biased toward the then-unformulated Trinity doctrine.

As quoted in Psalms 40:5-11 of the NEV, pay particular attention to the words of Psalm 40:6b.

(Psa 40:5) Many, Yahweh my God, are the wonderful works which You have done, and Your thoughts which are toward us. They can’t be declared back to You. If I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
(Psa 40:6) Sacrifice and offering You didn’t desire. You have digged my ears. You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
(Psa 40:7) Then I said, Behold, I have come. It is written about me throughout the book in the scroll.
(Psa 40:8) I delight to do Your will, my God. Yes, Your law is within my heart.
(Psa 40:9) I have proclaimed glad news of righteousness in the great assembly. Behold, I will not seal my lips, Yahweh, You know.
(Psa 40:10) I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart. I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation. I have not concealed Your grace and Your truth from the great assembly.
(Psa 40:11) Don’t withhold Your tender mercies from me, Yahweh; let Your grace and Your truth continually preserve me.

As quoted in Psalms 40:5-11 of the KJV

(Psa 40:5) Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
(Psa 40:6) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
(Psa 40:7) Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
(Psa 40:8) I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
(Psa 40:9) I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
(Psa 40:10) I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
(Psa 40:11) Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

Now the intended target of this erroneous translation in Hebrews 10:5c of the KJV:

(Heb 10:5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
(Heb 10:6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
(Heb 10:7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
(Heb 10:8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
(Heb 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(Heb 10:10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Heb 10:11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
(Heb 10:12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Of David's Psalm about Christ's hidden knowledge and his willingness to complete his mission for our salvation.

Psalm 40:6-11 speaks about the future Son of God. That he would be clearly enlightened by his Father concerning his mission; "You have digged my ears" or "mine ears hast thou opened" to the fact that his Father never intended the Law of burnt offerings for sin and that they are no longer required for salvation. That his Father told his Son Yeshua that his own flesh and blood, himself, would be its replacement for sin. He was going to be this human sacrifice, as he was fittingly called the 2nd Adam.

When this verse was translated into the Book of Hebrews, the original meaning of the Son of God possessing the knowledge and willingness to serve his Father for our salvation was completely lost; the entire meaning of the inspired words of God was destroyed. It never suggested that when Christ is born, a body was given to him. This is Trinitarian language. This is pure nonsense and has nothing to do with his Father opening the mind ("his ears") of Christ to his mission to become the sacrifice, the final 'burnt' offering for sin.

The entire Hebrews 10:5-12 passage is about Christ's knowledge given by his Father to understand his mission to become the sacrifice for sin, and then his willingness to serve and carry out this mission, BECAUSE his Father first reveals this knowledge to him and no one else.

It was not an announcement that the Son was 'given' a human body for his mission as the sacrifice for sin. It was natural for the Son to have a human body like any human person. The essence of the passage is about the knowledge given by God his Father, and his willingness to use this knowledge to serve and fulfil his Father's plan of salvation.

To further define this gross error in Hebrews 10:5b:

The difference between "ears" and "body" arises from the Septuagint's blatant false interpretation of the Hebrew phrase "ears hast thou opened" as a figurative expression meaning "a body prepared." The latter is complete intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

Some supportive scholars of this forgery suggest that the Septuagint translators may have viewed the phrase as a metaphor where a part (ears) represents the whole (body), or that they used a different Hebrew manuscript tradition.

However, the original Hebrew text clearly refers to "ears," and some translations and commentaries acknowledge this distinction, emphasizing that the meaning concerns obedience and willingness to serve, not a literal body!

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JustMe

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As this historical commentator writes of Hebrew 10:5b being a complete corruption of the word of God.

From the Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers. He states:
" ...but a body didst Thou prepare for me. Few discrepancies between the LXX. and the Hebrew have attracted more notice than that which these words present. The words of the Psalmist are, “In sacrifice and offering Thou hast not delighted: ears hast Thou digged for me.” As in Samuel’s words, already referred to as containing the germ of the psalm, sacrifice is contrasted with hearing and with hearkening to the voice of the Lord, the meaning evidently is, Thou hast given me the power of hearing so as to obey. A channel of communication has been opened, through which the knowledge of God’s true will can reach the heart, and excite the desire to obey. All ancient Greek versions except the LXX. more or less clearly express the literal meaning. It has been supposed that the translators of the LXX. had before them a different reading of the Hebrew text, preferable to that which is found in our present copies. This is very unlikely. Considering the general principles of their translation, we may with greater probability suppose that they designed merely to express the general meaning, avoiding a literal rendering of a Hebrew metaphor which seemed harsh and abrupt. They seem to have understood the Psalmist as acknowledging that God had given him that which would produce obedience; and to this (they thought) would correspond the preparation of a body which might be the instrument of rendering willing service.

If the present context be carefully examined, we shall see that, though the writer does afterwards make reference (Hebrews 10:10) to the new words here introduced, they are in no way necessary to his argument, nor does he lay on them any stress."
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More definitions:

The Hebrew idiom "digged ears," derived from the verb כָּרָה (karah), literally means to dig or excavate ears, as seen in Psalm 40:6, which states "ears you have dug for me".

This expression is not meant to be taken literally but is a figurative way of conveying that God has prepared or made the speaker receptive to His will.

Or, in another commentary...

Jewish commentators such as Rashi, Radak, ibn Ezra, and the M'tzudos interpret this idiom as meaning that God has caused the speaker to hear His command, or informed them of it, emphasizing spiritual readiness and divine communication.

The imagery reflects a deep personal surrender and openness to God's voice, where the "dug" ears symbolize a heart and mind made receptive to divine instruction.

This metaphor is also applied in Christian theology to Jesus, where His obedience is seen as stemming from a heart that God had "dug" or prepared.

The idiom thus conveys a profound sense of divine preparation for listening and obedience, rather than a physical act of piercing or opening.

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(Psa 40:4) Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.(KJV)

(Psa 40:4) Blessed is the man who makes Yahweh his trust and doesn’t respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.(NEV)
 

JustMe

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LOL, you act as if you posted anything that refuted my position.

1) Oh, you did claim that Elohim is not plural but that is in stark denial of the parsing of the word in Hebrew.

2) Echad can mean Unity out of Plurality. When used with the plural Elohim that is the only meaning that can be assigned to it

3) The fact that God will not share his glory proves my point...ponder this mystery:
Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Why did He glorify Jesus? Because they are echad..ONE

Let's open an thread devoted to the the Godhead. I have a GREAT many other verses that prove my point. You have failed to rebut this one.

I hope this enlightens you on who Jesus Christ really is.
You do not know what the word Godhead means as you did not know echad and Elohim.

Trying restudying 'Godhead' from a completely new perspective and from scratch.
 

marks

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Allow me to explain.
Long and convoluted arguments don't replace the straightforward reading of Scripture. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. This is plain as can be.

Philippians 2 is equally clear, being in the form of God, Jesus took on the form of a man, He became obedient, meaning, before, He wasn't. Interesting fact in Scripture! Either He was disobedient, and we know that's not true, or He was sovereign, and took on the form of a servant.

The Scriptures all harmonize.

As this historical commentator writes of Hebrew 10:5b being a complete corruption of the word of God.
"Well, that verse doesn't really belong in the Bible." How many times do I hear that?

Much love!
 

JustMe

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Long and convoluted arguments don't replace the straightforward reading of Scripture. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. This is plain as can be.

Philippians 2 is equally clear, being in the form of God, Jesus took on the form of a man, He became obedient, meaning, before, He wasn't. Interesting fact in Scripture! Either He was disobedient, and we know that's not true, or He was sovereign, and took on the form of a servant.

The Scriptures all harmonize.


"Well, that verse doesn't really belong in the Bible." How many times do I hear that?

Much love!
You have nothing to say. This is not convolution at all. Scripture is not that straight forward at all, sir. it's an attempt for me to reprove some area in scripture that was corrupted, and has been smelly for centuries, and there are many more like this subject that stink to high heaven.
 

GodsGrace

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YHWH is the only and eternal name of the only true God of the Bible. Not sure where this insolent "whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty" comes from.

Yahweh ... is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
Ex 3:15
God is given many names in the bible.

Why don't you reply to my post instead of making a comment that has nothing to d with our discussion??

Here is the original post to which you are not replying no. 356.
Maybe you could offer a REAL reply??



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It’s really not that hard. The word ‘god’ is theologically loaded. Once you accept that there are many lords and gods in Scripture, you realize these loaded words have more than one sense. Ken Ham used ‘back’ in multiple senses to illustrate.
The student, who sits in the back, hurt his back. He’ll be out for a while but he’ll be back to take back his #1 ranking.
It’s silly to attempt to force the word (back) into one sense for each use for the proper interpretation of these 2 sentences. Another example is Ps 110:1 The LORD said to my lord. Putting aside capitalization, it is clear to anyone with basic reading comprehension that ’the lord’ is a different lord than ‘my lord.’

The (big) boss said to my boss …
Click to expand...
When the OT or the NT speak about GOD, LORD, JEHOVAH, YAHWEH - or whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty - it is always referring to the ONE AND ONLY GOD.

Ken Ham would be right if there were more than one God.
However, there is only One.

Such explicit differentiations are literally made 1,000’s of times in Scripture. Jesus said God is greater than him, knows more than him, submits to him, says what to say and how to say it by God and prays to God. These verses differentiate the two and demonstrate hierarchy. By contrast, God doesn’t say Jesus is greater than him. God doesn’t submit to Jesus. God doesn’t pray to Jesus, etc.
Here we are, on your post no. 333

The above is correct.
When Jesus was on earth, He was a man and was limited in what He allowed Himself to know.

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

The 3-is-1 crowd want to disregard the clear, explicit and repeated differentiation all through Scripture and hold up an ambiguous expression like ‘with god and is god‘ as definitively dogmatic with no possible other way to interpret it.
My friend, Bill, has the bill and will not use his credit card but pay with a bill and coins.
Those who believe in the Trinity are not a "crowd".
They are Christians who have accepted Christian theology which has existed from the time of Jesus.

There is absolutely differentiation.
God Son went to the cross
NOT God Father.

The Holy Spirit was sent to be a paracleet..
NOT the Son.

The 3 Persons of the Trinity are separate but of the same nature/essence.

The three "bills" you posted are NOT of the same essence/substance.
Bill is a human.
Bill is a piece of paper.
Bill is a method of payment.

FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT are all three GOD.

Also, there is Scripture to properly grasp verse 1. It is seen in verse 45.
Philip found Nathanael, a friend, and burst in with excitement:
Philip: We have found the One. Moses wrote about Him in the Law, all the prophets spoke of the day when He would come, and now He is here—His name is Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter; and He comes from Nazareth.

What did Moses say about this one? That he’d be God incarnate? No. See Deutoronomy 18:15-18. No. No! NO! You can only interpret verse 1 through verse 14 not these other verses.

Click to expand...
Doesn't verse 14 count?
Should we eliminate it from scripture?

John wrote John 1:1 and John 1:14 for a reason.
Verse 14 does not get eliminated because some do not understand the Trinity and grasp on to verse 45.

You neglected to read on - the bible does explain itself.

John 1:45-51
45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote -Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
46 Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see."
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!"
48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
49 Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."
50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
51 And He
said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."


The Son of Man is indeed He that was awaited.
The Jews understood what this title meant, as we will see.


Mark 2:10
10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins "-He said to the paralytic,

Only God can forgive sin.
Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man.


Matthew 17:22-23
22 And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The
Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men;
23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.


Does a man know his own time of death and resurrection?

The Jews knew what SON OF MAN meant...
a prophecy from Daniel 7.
§The High Priest accused Jesus of blasphemy:


Mark 14:55-64
55 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any.
56 For many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was not consistent.
57 Some stood up and began to give false testimony against Him, saying,
58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.' "
59 Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent.
60 The high priest stood up and came forward * and questioned Jesus, saying, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"
61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the
high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 And
Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses?
64 "You have heard the blasphemy
; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.


It was at the words of Jesus I AM, AND YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER AND COMING WITH THE CLOUDS....that the High Priest tore his clothes.

The High Priest knew that Jesus was calling Himself God.
THIS is the blasphemy.
 

GodsGrace

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@Wrangler

You also never replied to my post no. 341


Are you unable to engage in a serious discussion?

Your little emarks are NOT a reply and show a lack of understanding of the bible.
 

marks

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I see you ape my expressions now...enjoy
Speaking in terms you will understand, as sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Call it "aping" if you like, that's more about scoring points off of others.

It seems you enjoy that, which is sad.

Much love!
 

marks

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it's an attempt for me to reprove some area in scripture that was corrupted, and has been smelly for centuries, and there are many more like this subject that stink to high heaven.
If this is your view of the Bible that helps me to understand how you view these things.

There is no need for you to continue to reply to my posts.

Much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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YHWH is the only and eternal name of the only true God of the Bible. Not sure where this insolent "whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty" comes from.

Yahweh ... is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
Ex 3:15
Still no reply to my post.

Wonder why?

Probably because you are UNABLE to reply to it because your theology is not in keeping with what the NT teaches.
 

GodsGrace

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YHWH is the only and eternal name of the only true God of the Bible. Not sure where this insolent "whatever name you wish to give to the Almighty" comes from.

Yahweh ... is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
Ex 3:15
I see that you are UNABLE to reply to my posts.
It would require too much theology - which, apparently, you are not familiar with.
 

GodsGrace

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Try restudying the incarnation of God the Son from a fresh perspective.

Much love!
Why post to heretics like @JustMe??
The word CHRISTIAN should be removed from under his avatar.
The word CHRISTIAN has a very specific meaning and some on this Forum should not be using that title.
I understand why it's almost impossible for Moderators to enforce such a rule....
but these persons should be called out.

They are NOT Christian and it might be best to ignore them.
 
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Beebster

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Must we resort to sarcasm?
Why not? Jesus used it.
You don't know the meaning of PERSON.
You apparently aren't interested in finding out.
I've already shown you the definition.
The onus is on you to prove that the word "person" means "spirit."

Is this the best you can do Beebster?
What do YOU think The Beginning was referring to?

The Trinity has been accepted FROM THE BEGINNING.
Yes because I have no idea what you are saying. So, rather than evade my question, show me.
 

GodsGrace

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Why not? Jesus used it.
Well, YOU are not Jesus.
I've already shown you the definition.
The onus is on you to prove that the word "person" means "spirit."

Yes because I have no idea what you are saying. So, rather than evade my question, show me.
You think PERSON means SPIRIT?
No onus on me Beebster because you don't even understand what is written in plain English.

You are apparently unfamiliar with the Christian faith.
FYI the Trinity has existed from the very beginning....
yes, beginning in the Old Testament.

Christians believe that Jesus is God.
Perhaps you're not a Christian? Although that's what is incorrectly stated under your avatar.

Also, apparently, you are UNABLE to reply to my post no. 357 because your theology is incorrect.

And this will be the end of our most unfruitful discussion.
 

Wrangler

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us. This is plain as can be.
Yet, it doesn't say anything like you claim it to say. Watch this.

In the beginning (of Jesus' ministry) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” (Deut 18:15-18) ... but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (not God incarnate), and that by believing you may have life in his name.

See how clear that is? This is plain as can be.
 

marks

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In the beginning (of Jesus' ministry) was the Word
If you have to add to God's Word don't expect that to convince me. I'm going with what God said, unadulterated.

What's plain is what God said.

Much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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Yet, it doesn't say anything like you claim it to say. Watch this.

In the beginning (of Jesus' ministry) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” (Deut 18:15-18) ... but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (not God incarnate), and that by believing you may have life in his name.

See how clear that is? This is plain as can be.
WHERE does it state OF JESUS' MINISTRY?? John 1:1

You either do NOT REPLY to posts...
or you ADD your own words to scripture......

Is it any wonder you DO NOT understand the bible....


Deuteronomy 4:2
2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Proberbs 30:5-6

5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

Revelation 22:18
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;