"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[BreadOfLife]

As I just said, and my assumption stands as truth, I ask you simple questions and you answer with your own, purposely! You just cannot help yourself can you.

I answered with a question because your question was vague. I just need to know what you meant. Ir's obvious that thi was too unsettling for you ro address.

You know where to find me whan you're ready tpo answer . . .

 

[Aunty Jane]

For the benefit of those who might read these exchanges....the truth must be told along with the other story so that comparisons can be made....and decisions might be reached as to who is speaking the truth and who is stretching it.

Let's see what Jesus says about His immortality:

John 2:18-22
18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six * * years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead,

Do you believe Jesus?

Jesus stated that 3 days after His destruction, He would raise Himself up.

LOL...where does it say that he would raise himself up?
What was “the temple of his body”?
What is “the body of Christ”?

What did Paul say?...
“You Belong to Christ. Do you not realize that you are God’s temple, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person. For the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.” (1 Cor 3:16-17 New Catholic Bible)

Now, do you see what Jesus was really saying? In three days the Bible says that “God raised Jesus from the dead”, (Rom 10:9) not that he raised himself.......so is there a contradiction here? Or was Jesus speaking about an entirely different temple in which he would serve as High Priest, and raise up those who would share rulership and priesthood with him? (Heb 3:1; Rev 20:6)

HOW does a dead person raise themselves from the dead?

Exactly.....how does a dead person raise himself? The Bible does not ever say that.

So you're a believer in the Old Testament and believe in its Laws,
so why do you call yourself a Christian??

Christians do not believe in revenge.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Christians believe what Jesus taught.

Sorry, but “revenge” is often mistaken for “vengeance”, which a legitimate action in recompense for wrongs committed, otherwise there could not have been the death penalty as a punishment for serious wrongdoing.

God’s laws do not change because God’s justice does not change. The only difference with Christianity as opposed to the Jewish religion, is that we do not participate in the process....we “do not return evil for evil”.

Paul wrote....
“Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Rather, be concerned about doing what is good in the eyes of all. As much as possible, and to the extent of your ability, live in peace with everyone. Dearly beloved, never seek revenge. Leave that to the time of retribution. For it is written, “Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.” Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.” (NCB)

Do you see the two words there...”revenge” and “vengeance”?

“Revenge” is....

1. to vindicate one's right, do one justice
   1. to protect, defend, one person from another
2. to avenge a thing
   1. to punish a person for a thing. (Strongs)

“Vengeance” is... “meting out of justice; doing justice to all parties.”

Only God has the right to “mete out justice” and only he can authorise humans to act in his behalf as he did with Israel.....he did not do the same with Christians, who have no right to take revenge on anyone.....but to hand a lawbreaker over to whatever legal system has authority in their country. Vengeance belongs to God alone.

That means that Christians cannot participate in bloodshed of any kind...if we have blood on our hands, God will not hear our prayers. (Isa 1:15) Tell me what church does not have blood on their hands in supporting the wars of their nations? They are up to their necks in filthy politics, seeking friendship with the world. (James 4:4)

Here is what Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

A slap is an insult not an attack. Insults are sometimes harder to resist....which is why we are told to turn the other cheek...showing that words are not weapons. They are just words...like my mother always taught me...”sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me”.

Duels in past eras were initiated by a slap across the face.....death was the result for one of the parties.
Humiliation is hard to resist...a slap is an intended humiliation.

You say God cannot become a man....
You limit the powers of God.

God can do whatever He wishes to do.

God cannot become a mortal and he cannot die. That is why he “sent“ his son, who became a mortal and who could die. He can do whatever he wishes, but within the parameters that he alone has set.

Paul believed Jesus to be God incarnate.
Why would he then In Philippians 2 make any statement that was contrary?
Did Paul want to contradict himself?

Paul was the one who wrote collectively on behalf of all the other apostles....

“Indeed, even though there are so-called gods in heaven and on earth—and there are in fact many gods and many lords— for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things areand for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.” (1 Cor 8:5-6 NCB)

If you read what it says, and not what you think it says...his statement is unequivocal. The apostles acknowledge that they had “ONE GOD, THE FATHER”.....and....“ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST”.....

Calling Jesus “Lord” is a title of reverence and respect, not an acknowledgment of deity.

Paul believed Jesus was God by referring to Him in that way.

Romans 10:13
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


Joel 2:31-32
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved;

Calling on the name of “the LORD” is calling on Yahweh/Jehovah, and this is what will give us salvation....the divine name is clearly seen in Joel 2:32 in the Hebrew text....so calling on the name of the wrong “god” will be a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

 

[Lizbeth]

You write many good posts, most better than me, so I will ask you something. I believe the Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ. I would say just about every christian I know would either term it the Holy Spirit fully resides in Christ or the father fully resides in Christ. I'm sure that is what you believe, and every other equal trinitarian believes on this website.
Therefore, the difference in opinion does not concern the essence of Christ but his title. Now Im a simple person, but in the circumstances, to say it is not enough to title Christ the son of God is mind boggling to me. This is the title laid down by Christ himself and the Apostles that must be given to Christ to be saved.
And no one is going to be condemned for believing the title Christ himself laid down as who he must be believed to be to inherit eternal life. I hope you would agree with that
This subject may be envigorating to many on the internet, but in over forty years of going to various trinitarian denominational churches I have only ever come across one minister who actually stated from the pulpit Christ is God Himself and everyone should believe it. He was an assistant pastor fresh out of bible college. I rang a friend who had also been to trinitarian churches for over forty years. He hadn't heard it stated either from the pulpit Christ is God Himself

I don't know that I can answer that question categorically, and I hope I don't ramble too much here. I think sometimes the heart believes and knows what the natural mind doesn't yet know.....for anyone who is begotten of the Spirit and has the Spirit I would think that least their hearts must know Who Jesus is. And at some point the mind needs to be instructed and catch up with what the heart knows by the Spirit. Until then I believe there might be grace up to a point at least, for immaturity or knowledge/understanding of His deity not yet attained, but will be. And gosh, at some point in reading the word of God, I think as born again believers we ought to realize and know on Whom we have believed.

And what does it mean to believe on Christ and have our faith in Him? God forbid that our faith and trust is in a mere man....that would be idolatry. I don't know categorically whether it is necessary to know about His deity with the mind to have eternal life, or maybe it is necessary, at some point which is determined by God for the individual. But I think it won't stand anyone in good stead on the day of judgment to be teaching otherwise, or to let anyone deceive us and talk us out of believing and knowing Who He is.

And just to say, the bible says Jesus had the Spirit without measure, and that He "came out from God", which is implying that He came from "within" God, as being part of the Godhead, not just sent like an angel is sent. He is "the" Son of God and also "the" Son of Man by title....and "the only" begotten Son of God.....so these are titles that belong exclusively to Him. In Isaiah 9:6 He is openly and frankly called Counsellor (same as the Holy Spirit because it is Christ's Spirit), Everlasting Father and Mighty God. Hard to argue with that.

 

[Lizbeth]

How are you going to express the right words but from the wrong idea in disagreement with me?

How is it carnal to make sense of what a "spirit" is?

You really want to believe in ghosts and goblins and call yourself pious for it?

God makes so much more sense when you stop pursuing such irrational thinking.

Afraid I don't understand you. God is spirit, is He not? I'm not talking about ghosts and goblins. Christ is risen and ascended to heaven....the bible says now we know Him not after the flesh any longer. He sent us His Spirit and He had to ascend to heaven in order for that to be done. Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[Lizbeth]

He said: JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they(believers) also be in us
How can believers be in Father and Son?

Because they are one. Where Jesus said "I and the Father are one". And it is through Christ that we come to the Father.

 

[Lizbeth]

I believe some people have heads so crammed full of theology there is no room left for discernment

Amen. Often times they can't see the forest for the trees. I believe there is a place for scholarship and it can be useful, however that is not the same as relying on it....our reliance/dependency needs to be on the Lord.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And just to say, the bible says Jesus had the Spirit without measure, and that He "came out from God", which is implying that He came from "within" God, as being part of the Godhead, not just sent like an angel is sent.

I would like to address some of your points here....

Jesus was born 100% human and so he was a mortal just like his siblings, but without inherited sin. He had no supernatural abilities until he received the Holy Spirit at his baptism at the age of 30. This is why his siblings had trouble putting faith in him...he was just their big brother...someone they had grown up with. They were as amazed by his miracles as everyone else. None put faith in him until after his resurrection.

He came from God.....he was ”sent” by him as Scripture plainly states. (John 3:16; John 17:3) Implying something, doesn’t make it true.
Jesus is called God’s “only begotten son”....but what does that mean in the big picture when God is said to have many “sons” in heaven with him? Does it make Jesus merely “an angel” to suggest that he is created?
He is not like any other creation...he is unique....a one off.

Paul calls him “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. (Col 1:15)
If he is the “firstborn” of “ALL CREATION” then he is the first and only direct creation of his Father. Or as it says in Rev 3:14...he is “the beginning of God’s creation”.
All things came into existence “THROUGH” the Son, but from the Father, using God’s powerful spirit in the process.

Do we appreciate why he had to be born as a sinless human to pay the price of redemption, which was set in Eden?
Sinless life was lost for all of Adam’s children in one act of disobedience, so with one act of redemption, Jesus paid for our sin, with his sinless life...we inherited sin against our will, and it was not our fault....Jesus came to pay for what we might do in the future, because of inherited sin....”while we were yet sinners Christ died for us”.
What a wonderful safety net! But for unbelievers no net at all. They will ignore Christ’s sacrifice as of no importance....trampling on the most precious gift that God ever gave the world.

He is "the" Son of God and also "the" Son of Man by title....and "the only" begotten Son of God.....so these are titles that belong exclusively to Him.

Yes they do, but none of them state that he is Yahweh. He is “the son of Yahweh” and always has been.
He is God’s firstborn...”monogenes” which is a word used in the Bible for an “only child”....not exclusive to Jesus.

Jesus was a unique son in that he was used as the agency for his God and Father in creation, which Paul states was “created through him and for him”. Creation was therefore to be God’s gift to his precious son....and he was offered a large part in bringing it into existence, but using God’s powerful spirit to accomplish it.

In Isaiah 9:6 He is openly and frankly called Counsellor (same as the Holy Spirit because it is Christ's Spirit), Everlasting Father and Mighty God. Hard to argue with that.

All those titles in Hebrew have a much wider meaning than they do in English.
Was Jesus a “Wonderful Counsellor? Yes, the best there was, because all his counsel came from his Father.

Was he an “everlasting father”? Yes...a father is a life-giver and Jesus is responsible for giving us everlasting life.....which is the restoration of all that we lost in the garden of Eden.

Is he the “Prince of Peace”? Yes, because he is the son of a King, who was chosen to rule in his Father’s Kingdom. He shares the throne with his God and Father. Co-regency was not uncommon in Bible times.

Interpretation is everything....so if you interpret Scripture incorrectly, by taking words and phrases at face value, without using other Scripture and resources to back up any statement of belief, you end up in the confusion of Christendom, who don’t quite know what to believe about a lot of things.....

 

[saved by grace 101]

Because they are one. Where Jesus said "I and the Father are one". And it is through Christ that we come to the Father.

I would say, believers can only be in Father and Son through the Holy Spirit, and as you mentioned, the Holy Spirit was on Christ without limit, and John states He spoke the words of God because the Spirit was on Him without limit.
So when Jesus state: JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they also be in us, I would take that to mean Jesus and His Father are in each other through the Spirit, which I wouldn't have thought that was far from what people believe in this thread, as they believe the Holy Spirit is God. And, if we all believed the Holy Spirit fully dwelt in Christ, I would think we can say the divinity of the father fully dwells in the son. Not trying to be contentious here, just trying to find common ground
Anyway, I have never liked to debate any perceived differences with those I am assured are Spirit filled christians, so I will leave it there. Thank you for your posts

 

[saved by grace 101]

Sooo, it is that you don’t know – or hat you just want to be argumentative?
I asked you a valid question: What’s the difference between a Christian, a Cathollic and a Roman Catholic?

If you can’t answer the question - just say so . . .

You can correct me Im wrong, Im going by hearsay on another site. A couple of protestants stated we are all catholics in respect of we are christians, I think (think) they were using the term catholic to mean universal or something like that. But we are not all ROMAN catholics. In respect to the difference concerning the word christian, it depends who you ask. I've come across catholics who believe no protestant can be saved and protestants who believe no catholic can be saved/be christians

 

[XtraPercept]

Afraid I don't understand you. God is spirit, is He not? I'm not talking about ghosts and goblins. Christ is risen and ascended to heaven....the bible says now we know Him not after the flesh any longer. He sent us His Spirit and He had to ascend to heaven in order for that to be done. Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Clarity is my goal. If you would consider that I might have something to offer you, perhaps you won't reject it without contemplating it first, at least.

God is The Spirit. Is there another?

Making satan, demons, four faced spinning wheels with wings, and angels out to be "spirits" is a deep misunderstanding of the ideas presented.

You can't know the flesh of Jesus because it is ascended with Him; the only means by which we contact Him is by reaching to His Spirit with our own.

How do you contact Someone Who only appears available through a Book; that is to contact Spirit with our spirit?

You have to read about Him.

Here is what could help your understanding were you to accept it:

Reading the Bible, especially the new and unfamiliar parts along with frequent dictionary references, is how you deposit truth from the Spirit into your own spirit; which is dead until sufficient truth is present that God revives the spirit in which His truth is accumulated through revelation.

Revelation is the unfolding and expansion of understanding. Sometimes what is revealed is a series of steps connecting two points previously separated, other times what is revealed is a distant step for which the connections will come to be understood at a later time.

The Spirit is sent, He is among us, He is within me now.
I seek to share Him, but as He said, many will call good evil and evil good.
It is not piety to reject ideas; it is piety to choose the best among all of them, because the Best of them is God.

I fought the triune furnace god and won. It was a paper tiger all along.

The real God of truth always makes sense, always lines up, and is always consistent.

The only 'mysteries of faith' come from gnosticism, errant doctrine, and all the irrational imaginings of of disobedience.

 

[XtraPercept]

You can correct me Im wrong, Im going by hearsay on another site. A couple of protestants stated we are all catholics in respect of we are christians, I think (think) they were using the term catholic to mean universal or something like that. But we are not all ROMAN catholics. As to what's the difference depends who you ask. Ive come across catholics who believe no protestant can be saved and protestants who believe no catholic can be saved/be christians

Remember Origen? He is considered a founding father of catholicism. He is credited for the most development of the trinity before john calvin.

John calvin, a name associated with protestantism, carved away a great deal of paganism from catholicism to make for less praying to the dead and less need to worry about all those heavy handed 'church fathers.'

The fundamental foundation of catholicism, protestantism, the seminary, and modern day 'christianity' as grown from the constantine-inspired merger of truth with wickedness is this divided deity of three.

You can't say you read the Bible, where God says "I am one!" and then say you believe the Bible while declaring, "he is three!"
You can't say you believe God when He says "I am good!" and then say for your own satisfaction, "you're going to hell!"

Well, you can say those things, but words spoken without meaning or truth are going to be burned up some day.
When the cleansing fires pass over the transcript of your life, all that will remain are the words a person spoke in alignment with the will of God; only lies and falsehood will be destroyed at the End.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Remember Origen? He is considered a founding father of catholicism. He is credited for the most development of the trinity before john calvin.

John calvin, a name associated with protestantism, carved away a great deal of paganism from catholicism to make for less praying to the dead and less need to worry about all those heavy handed 'church fathers.'

The fundamental foundation of catholicism, protestantism, the seminary, and modern day 'christianity' as grown from the constantine-inspired merger of truth with wickedness is this divided deity of three.

You can't say you read the Bible, where God says "I am one!" and then say you believe the Bible while declaring, "he is three!"
You can't say you believe God when He says "I am good!" and then say for your own satisfaction, "you're going to hell!"

Well, you can say those things, but words spoken without meaning or truth are going to be burned up some day.
When the cleansing fires pass over the transcript of your life, all that will remain are the words a person spoke in alignment with the will of God; only lies and falsehood will be destroyed at the End.

The NT church was a very broad church, compared to individual denominations. People were accepted as believers who wanted gentiles to be circumcised and obey the Mosaic law, Paul was accepted as a believer also, and he said those who circumcised were mutilators of the flesh. Then Paul spoke of 'disputable matters' in Rom14
I learnt a long time ago, nearly fifty years ago to be precise, God does not lay the demands on you many of his children will in order to be saved, or be blessed by Him.
I am assured there are christians who believe Jesus should be titled God Himself, just as there are Christians who do not believe that(of which I am one.)
As one believer said on another website

''I am exasperated by the ever higher doctrinal hoops people are expected to jump through to be saved''

 

[ProDeo]

Is God not able to do what He wishes to do?
Why do you limit the powers of God?

Let's see what Jesus says about His immortality:

Regarding immortality -

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Next chapter, same people, explaining what second death means.

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Second death, separation from God, away from the holy city of light, into outer darkness, the place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Unable to enter the city of light because they can't stand the holy light, lost in their sins.

But most of all, they are very much alive!

There goes another false JW doctrine.

 

[XtraPercept]

God does not lay the demands on you

Jesus said, "be perfect therefore as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Despite the regional expansion of the faith among the Greek speaking population of the time, the Byzantine and Alexandrian texts are nearly identical.

The Apostle said "study; that's how you demonstrate your approval!"

To shrug and say "I did enough" is to surrender so woefully short of your highest potential.

 

[XtraPercept]

''I am exasperated by the ever higher doctrinal hoops people are expected to jump through to be saved''

I have jumped through so many that now I jump over them all; I have no doctrine, only faith.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Jesus said, "be perfect therefore as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Despite the regional expansion of the faith among the Greek speaking population of the time, the Byzantine and Alexandrian texts are nearly identical.

The Apostle said "study; that's how you demonstrate your approval!"

To shrug and say "I did enough" is to surrender so woefully short of your highest potential.

Please quote the whole of the sentence:
'''God does not lay the demands on you many of his children will in order to be saved, or be blessed by Him.'''

 

[XtraPercept]

Please quote the whole of the sentence:
'''God does not lay the demands on you many of his children will in order to be saved, or be blessed by Him.'''

The Word is my passion. The fracturing of your expression is discordant like an untrained choir.

The expression "God does not lay the demands" can be refuted in part or in whole, even with your expression made more readable by the placement of the missing comma.

God reveals truth, the only command is to believe.

Rereading it several times I find that too many meanings can be ascribed; your statement is very vague.

 

[XtraPercept]

Making satan, demons, four faced spinning wheels with wings, and angels out to be "spirits" is a deep misunderstanding of the ideas presented;
// insert //

Apologies, I see I missed a thought here.

// begin insert //

... and making "spirits" out to be invisible, cognizant, action-capable forces is a terrifying thought! But it is not true! Just like hell is all kinds of scary but not true.

God is good.

// end insert //

 

[XtraPercept]

And for those who are furiously pasting Gospel quotes;

You are chewing on Lego apples.

Confused?

What, did you think I meant that literally?

 

[saved by grace 101]

Rereading it several times I find that too many meanings can be ascribed; your statement is very vague.

Well here's a few examples.
Some protestants say no catholic can be saved and some catholics say no protestant can be saved. Many on the internet believe you cannot be saved unless you accept an equal Trinity.
But I was really thinking of something else to be honest.
As a teenager I would sit on a wall close to the church after the service and smoke a cigarette, it was a church that believed in the gifts of the Spirit for today. Some of the looks I got from some of the parishoners led me to believe I would go to hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections. And scripture was also placed before me to show the gravity of my smoking.
Years later I went to hear an internationally known evangelist preach. Some of us went out for private prayer after the service. The evangelist told me much about my life though they had never met me before, and they confirmed, I had been, what evangelicals describe baptised in the Holy Spirit, and yet, at that time I still smoked. It was with that example in mind I made my statement to you