My personal eclectic view

[1stCenturyLady]

The term "great tribulation" is generic and is not being used as a proper noun as if THE Great Tribulation is a specific period at the end of history in the Bible. The only biblical use of the term as a Proper Noun refers to the generation in which the Jewish People are exiled and persecuted throughout the NT period, also known as the "Jewish Diaspora." The future period biblically described in the Revelation as a persecution of the saints might be called "the reign of Antichrist."

In Luke 21 Jesus very specifically explained that this "Great Distress" was a Jewish Punishment designed to keep them in exile throughout the current age. It is a period that Jesus certainly indicated would mean suffering for Jewish believers, as well, but for different reasons. Unbelieving Jews and pagan Gentiles both would persecute Jewish believers. And Jewish believers would lose their homeland not because of their own sins but only because they shared the fate brought on by their own unbelieving Jewish brethren.

The church at Philadelphia suffered the risk of tribulation in the same way the Jewish believers did. But they were exempted from it, by circumstance and not by a supposed "Rapture of the Church." In Thyatira, Jezebel and her fellow rebels were to suffer "great tribulation" in the same way rebellious Jews were to suffer under the Romans for their own rebellion.

I'm assuming you were speaking of Revelation 11, and not Romans 11? Rev 11 brings to an end a single large vision--the Scroll vision. It begins with Jesus opening the Scroll and ends with the opening of the last Seal, which involved the blowing of 7 Trumpets.

The 7th Trumpet shows the Kingdom of Chrst coming. The book of Revelation then continues on with more visions describing similar things. The multiple visions of the book of Revelation do not depict a strict chronological sequence, but only a narrative sequence because John has the various things explained to him one after another in a single revelation. The visions overlap each other, describing the same history leading up to the Return of Christ.

But the narrative does build a crescendo, and that kind of language is often mistaken for a chronological sequence. The prophecies of the Bible were not designed to produce speculations about the timing of prophecies. If there was an immediate need, prophecy was urgent. But if prophecy was about the distant future it was to create a current spiritual attitude, aligning with our hope--not elicit prophetic calendars and clever interpretations of apocalyptic symbols.

It seems you believe in "Replacement Theology."

You misunderstood me. You said, "I'm assuming you were speaking of Revelation 11, and not Romans 11?" I spoke of both. Rev. 11 is about the two witnesses. Who are they? But Romans 11 tells us that when the last Gentile comes into the Church, no more Gentiles will be saved, only national Jews. That is future and why Replacement Theology is a false teaching.

 

[Marty fox]

I quoted this:
Rom 2.8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This is speaking of "distress" for those who "do evil." This is not speaking of only Christians going through great tribulation.

I also gave you the Olivet Discourse, and especially Luke 21, where Jesus describes "great distress" as coming upon the Jewish People as a form of punishment. This is not great tribulation only for the saints!

This appears to undo your argument that great tribulation is for the saints and wrath for the wicked. Great Tribulation is somewhat synonymous with Wrath in Jesus' theology and we should use the words just as he did. Christians are not under God's Wrath. But they do indeed go through tribulation of various kinds.

Yes and as I have said before there are many tribulations and some of them are also Gods wrath but only one “the great tribulation“ the key word is “the” which sets it apart from other tribulations. The word “the” is there for a reason.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I know what you mean. I've been in three different denominations BEFORE I was born again of the Holy Spirit while in the last one. There are many in the Church who are not actually the Bride of Christ. They are deceived.

And even though it has been many decades now that I am the Bride of Christ, it has only been about ten years ago, after joining my first Christian forum site that I found out about the hundreds of different interpretations of Scripture there are out there, when there should only be one by the One! That is when I prayed and asked God to wipe my mind of ALL false doctrines of man and even demons because I only want the truth by the Spirit of Truth. Of course, He answered that prayer immediately! He knew my heart, and I knew His will.

Wow! I finally had clarity. I don't have conflicting questions running around my brain anymore that you must choose which one is best FOR YOU, not what God demands, especially on the issue of SIN. Those still under the influence of Satan believe what I heard on the radio the other day (and was shocked). That pastor actually said that Jesus came and died on the cross to free us from the punishment of sin. That is not the "truth that will set you free." Read the whole passage, John 8:32, 34-36. (33 is only the Pharisees' response.) He also treats 1 John 1:9 as a get out of hell free card, when in reality it is the same as Acts 2:38 that, if that experience is real (and it is), you will be free from lawless sin (1 John 3:9, and won't have to add the word practice to, to be relatable.)

God can be clear on things pertaining unto sin per se, and a Christian walk, which is everyone's calling right? But then He may choose not to be clear to everyone on prophesy because not everyone us called unto prophesy per se, and the timing also matters, God only in the last 10 years, imho, has started revealing what He said in Daniel 12 would be locked up until the very end [times]. So, whenever we try to stretch our calling into that which God has not called us unto, we run into trouble. Paul was called to evangelize the Gentiles, in one place he states that the Man of Sin will stand in the temple, committing the AoD, but that is not what Jesus actually says in Matt. 24:15 nor what John says in Rev. 13. Jesus implies its something that stands in the holy place, and John clearly says the False Prophet gets "the people" (2/3 who refuse to repent) to make an "Image of the First Beast" and they place it in the temple. So, Paul was guessing, John was shown the facts by God/Jesus/the Angels in visions and words. Was Paul of Satan? Of course not, but he was confused on the matter, and Satan is the author of confusion, he put firth in a letter, something he was guessing on, and anything that is of us, is not of God. We have sin nature.

So, when it comes unto prophesy, its more than am I led by God, its does God desire me to teach this unto others as a calling, or to listen to those called into this field. Some men are great youth teachers, other not so much, but they might be great elderly teachers, we are all different, some feet, some hands etc. Using simple rational tells us the 70th week can not have come to pass (my original reply unto you as well as the pre trib. rapture etc.) The Dan. 9:24-27 prophesy has strings/requirements, 1.) Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to an end. That closes the whole theory that the 70th week has come to pass sister. Also, sins must come to an end (meaning willful sins of course, as the live with Jesus fir 1000 years on earth they still have sin nature their is a reason for this 1000 years....LATER)

The time of the Gentiles.....SERVICE......must come full (come to an end) before Israel repents so says Romans 11:25. Then by reading Romans 9-11 we can see Paul was spelling out that he was talking about SERVICE time and again, the Potter God chooses the vessel He so choses for service unto Him. God chose Jacob over Esau for SERVICE, God hardened Pharoah heart to bring about His will, (SERVICE) so in Rom. 11:25 God is clearly saying through Paul that the fulness of the Gentiles is their service during the Church Age must come full or to an end, only then does God deal with Israel again, the 70th week starts and the rapture happens at the exact same time, when Israel joins the E.U.

When God is silent, we must be also. God told me in a vision 1987 that "The Man of Sin was Here" then told me or showed me Jimmy Swaggart would soon fall (only to let a young Christian know the vision was 100% correct, even if way down the road). But guess what, I knowing my calling, did not just start saying, thus will happen, or that will happen, because God became silent (it was not time) and thus I stayed silent, except to tell people the AC is alive and in the world, I was told that in a vision. My calling was prophesy, and I showed what I could, but I never forced it. Then about 10 years ago as I had my heart attack, God started revealing all these end time things unto my. The bible in one verse tells us the AC has to be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9). It also tells he he must arise out of the old Roman Fourth Beasts Head. We must combine both AND .........of course Greece is in the E.U. Also, nowhere in the bible does it say the AC will conquer the whole world, it is referring to the whole earth around the GREAT SEA (The Mediterranean Sea) and nowhere does it call the 144,000 Jewish Super Evangelists, heck the 144,000 is a code, God never just gives Satan easy battle plans. Is it wrong to guess? Not if a person says they are guessing but most people just say, thus is how it is, and are in error.

 

[covenantee]

It seems you believe in "Replacement Theology."

You misunderstood me. You said, "I'm assuming you were speaking of Revelation 11, and not Romans 11?" I spoke of both. Rev. 11 is about the two witnesses. Who are they? But Romans 11 tells us that when the last Gentile comes into the Church, no more Gentiles will be saved, only national Jews. That is future and why Replacement Theology is a false teaching.

Where in Romans 11 are only national Jews saved?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We have sin nature.

Those who are not born again of the Spirit, yes. But that is precisely what Jesus came to cure in us. Where do you think Jesus took away our desire to sin from if not our nature? The old sin nature was called the 'old man' or 'flesh.' It is dead/crucified. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. And if we do not have the Spirit of Christ we do not belong to Him, Romans 8:9. This is an important doctrine to get right. Unfortunately, most of the Protestant church was taught wrong at the beginning of the Reformation, and I only know of a couple independent pastors that know this, - not even a denomination! Indeed, few there are that find this.

The Dan. 9:24-27 prophesy has strings/requirements, 1.) Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to an end. That closes the whole theory that the 70th week has come to pass sister. Also, sins must come to an end (meaning willful sins of course, as the live with Jesus fir 1000 years on earth they still have sin nature their is a reason for this 1000 years....LATER)

I agree that Israel must repent before the 70th week can come to an end, and that is FUTURE, not past. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear in whatever you read of mine.

Also, Jesus has already brought an end of willful, lawless sins for us of His Bride, who must be without spot or wrinkle. And when the last Gentile that is going to becomes saved, THEN the focus returns to national Israel and their partial blindness will be lifted and "all remaining Israel will be saved." The Church will still be on earth at that time and some will be protected (Philadelphian), but others must overcome by becoming martyrs.

as the live with Jesus fir 1000 years on earth they still have sin nature their is a reason for this 1000 years....LATER)

Not sure what you are meaning here, nor what or if I said something to produce this or not.

the 70th week starts and the rapture happens at the exact same time, when Israel joins the E.U.

Does this mean you are "pre-trib"? I'm open, but do know for certain that it is only the Philadelphian church age type that will be either raptured or protected on earth. Thyatira/RCC and Orthodox, Sardis/Reformed and Laodecians/nominal, will have to bear the horrors of the GT and become martyrs or be damned forever. The reason I know the majority of the Church will still be hear is because of their robes, Rev. 7. A total unbeliever in Jesus is naked. And even though non-Philadelphians have robes, it is implied they are dirty and still need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

When God is silent, we must be also. God told me in a vision 1987 that "The Man of Sin was Here" then told me or showed me Jimmy Swaggart would soon fall (only to let a young Christian know the vision was 100% correct, even if way down the road). But guess what, I knowing my calling, did not just start saying, thus will happen, or that will happen, because God became silent (it was not time) and thus I stayed silent, except to tell people the AC is alive and in the world, I was told that in a vision. My calling was prophesy, and I showed what I could, but I never forced it. Then about 10 years ago as I had my heart attack, God started revealing all these end time things unto my. The bible in one verse tells us the AC has to be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9). It also tells he he must arise out of the old Roman Fourth Beasts Head. We must combine both AND .........of course Greece is in the E.U. Also, nowhere in the bible does it say the AC will conquer the whole world, it is referring to the whole earth around the GREAT SEA (The Mediterranean Sea) and nowhere does it call the 144,000 Jewish Super Evangelists, heck the 144,000 is a code, God never just gives Satan easy battle plans. Is it wrong to guess? Not if a person says they are guessing but most people just say, thus is how it is, and are in error.

In 2000 I was driving alone through the Arizona desert on my way back to California and God spoke to me and said, "I am giving you the office of Teacher." And the next year at the same yearly conference on the Holy Spirit I received a prophecy from a speaker that was on tape. It is fairly long and I couldn't figure out how it was ever going to come to pass as I listened to it over and over on my drive home, but as soon as I returned home to Arizona the first line started, and though it took over 20 years it has now all come to pass.

Your mission is about prophecy. Mine is about the true doctrines of the gospel. I even wrote a book that took 7 years for God to reveal all He had to teach me about speaking in tongues which I knew little. It is on Amazon.com "The Hidden Mystery Behind Tongues." I had many questions I asked God, and He usually gave me the answer as I was just awakening from sleep. For instance, 1 Cor. 14:2 says "no man understands" so how was it that the Jews seemed to understand what the disciples were saying in tongues. God spoke one word, and then elaboration of understanding - "Interpretation." The Spirit drew the devout Jews through one of the gifts of the Spirit - Interpretation of tongues.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Where in Romans 11 are only national Jews saved?

Romans 11 is about the Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish Church as the Jews were the first to enter. Paul made it clear in this chapter that God was not done with His chosen nation yet.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Further down Paul says,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


During the Great Tribulation no more Gentiles will freshly become saved. They will not be given new robes to cover their nakedness as all of us Gentile Christians were. See 2 Thes. 2:8-12 - all Gentiles will receive a strong delusion to follow after the Antichrist.

This is the time for national Israel (the only Jews left) to be saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes and as I have said before there are many tribulations and some of them are also Gods wrath but only one “the great tribulation“ the key word is “the” which sets it apart from other tribulations. The word “the” is there for a reason.

The word "the" is not alone sufficient to determine *what* great tribulation is being discussed. I would have to look at the context.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It seems you believe in "Replacement Theology."

How so? I completely oppose Replacement Theology.

You misunderstood me. You said, "I'm assuming you were speaking of Revelation 11, and not Romans 11?" I spoke of both. Rev. 11 is about the two witnesses. Who are they? But Romans 11 tells us that when the last Gentile comes into the Church, no more Gentiles will be saved, only national Jews. That is future and why Replacement Theology is a false teaching.

I'm not a proponant of Replacement Theology, period. But I certainly do *not* believe that "only Jews" will get saved at the end of the age. The nations will flow to the God of Israel, according to Isaiah. Isa 2.

But of course, Israel must be saved too. Otherwise, God will not even be known as the "God of Israel."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But I certainly do *not* believe that "only Jews" will get saved at the end of the age. The nations will flow to the God of Israel, according to Isaiah. Isa 2.

Have you never understood 2 Thess. 2:8-12?

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

How about Romans 11:25-27

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


That means when all the Gentiles that were foreknown to be saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Have you never understood 2 Thess. 2:8-12?

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

How is this relevant? I memorized all of 2 Thes back in 1972. I can't say I have it memorized anymore, but I certainly do understand it! Memorizing this letter is what made me a Postribulationist.

How about Romans 11:25-27

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


That means when all the Gentiles that were foreknown to be saved.

I can see where you get your logic, but it certainly isn't how I or many others interpret it. As I said, not just Israel but the nations will be restored in the Millennium (assuming you believe in the Millennium).

The "fulness of the Gentiles" refers to the salvation of mankind prior to the collapse of world civilization into antiChristianity, and prior to the coming of the Kingdom. It is focused upon the preservation of Israel in Paul's argument, which will be lost once the nations fall into antiChristianity and begin to threaten Israel's existence.

So, the "fulness of the Gentiles" is the evangelical program God has been engaging in for 2000 years. And Israel has been preserved in the form of a believing remnant during that time.

But once the nations no longer tolerate evangelism, the fulness of the Gentiles has come in and it's time for world judgment and the final deliverance of Israel through the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. Christian rule will no longer tolerate oppresesion of either Christianity or the State of Israel.

But the "fulness of the Gentiles" has nothing to do with the coming Kingdom age, as I argued before. It will be a brand new age.

 

[covenantee]

Romans 11 is about the Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish Church as the Jews were the first to enter. Paul made it clear in this chapter that God was not done with His chosen nation yet.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Further down Paul says,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


During the Great Tribulation no more Gentiles will freshly become saved. They will not be given new robes to cover their nakedness as all of us Gentile Christians were. See 2 Thes. 2:8-12 - all Gentiles will receive a strong delusion to follow after the Antichrist.

This is the time for national Israel (the only Jews left) to be saved.

Paul identifies "all Israel" in Romans 9.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul identifies "all Israel" in Romans 9.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

c, ask yourself which 'Israel' did God put "partial blindness" on? That was NOT spiritual Israel, but national Israel. And that partial blindness had an 'end date' which was "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Then national Israel shall become spiritual Israel and be saved.

 

[Douggg]

The GT is God's *punishment* or *wrath* against the Jewish People. The Olivet Discourse makes that CLEAR!

No, the Great Tribulation is a time period lasting 1335 days, during which, God's wrath will be poured out on the world in rebellion against Him. The Jewish people will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation during that time, Revelation 12:10.

Also, during that time period, Satan will be exerting his wrath on the inhabiters of the earth. The Great Tribulation in effect is the final great showdown between God and the angel of rebellion, violence, and evil, Satan.

 

[covenantee]

c, ask yourself which 'Israel' did God put "partial blindness" on? That was NOT spiritual Israel, but national Israel. And that partial blindness had an 'end date' which was "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Then national Israel shall become spiritual Israel and be saved.

1CL, national Israel was comprised of spiritual (believing), and nonspiritual (unbelieving) individuals.

Paul identified them as "all Israel" and "of Israel", respectively.

Nonspiritual unbelieving "of Israel" was blinded. Their blindness was lifted when Paul began to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Multitudes of those "of Israel" have believed and been added to "all Israel" since then.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Their blindness was lifted when Paul began to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Began? No. At the end which is still future, but not by much.

"until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." That means has been completed. THEN the partial blindness will lift completely from unsaved Israel and they will become spiritual Israel in Jesus' Church.

 

[covenantee]

Began? No. At the end which is still future, but not by much.

"until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." That means has been completed. THEN the partial blindness will lift completely from unsaved Israel and they will become spiritual Israel in Jesus' Church.

There is no partial blindness. Anyone who wishes to come to Christ can come.

Those who refuse to come to Christ do so not because of blindness, but because of their own obdurate unbelief and hardness of heart.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, the Great Tribulation is a time period lasting 1335 days, during which, God's wrath will be poured out on the world in rebellion against Him. The Jewish people will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation during that time, Revelation 12:10.

It bothers me that you make these dogmatic statements while completely ignoring the points I've made. What, for example, have you done with my reference to Luke 21.20-24? In particular what do you do with...

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

This is what Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" as--wrath against the Jewish People, beginning in 70 AD and ending at his Return. This is as explicit as can be and you just say "no." I can't understand that, if you're a reasonable person. Are you unable to comprehend the point? Are you unwilling to answer the point?

There is a 1335 days period mentioned in Dan 12, but it does not identify with the "Great Tribulation" Jesus mentioned as a Jewish Punishment in the Olivet Discourse because that lasts far, far longer than 1335 days! It is much more likely to me that the 1290 days refer to Antiochus 4's reign, with the 1335 days extending the period to to the news of his demise reaching Jerusalem.

Also, during that time period, Satan will be exerting his wrath on the inhabiters of the earth. The Great Tribulation in effect is the final great showdown between God and the angel of rebellion, violence, and evil, Satan.

You're combining one "great tribulation" with another "great tribulation" with no thought to whether they even relate to each other, apart from the fact they use the same or similar words. This is not sound interpretion, as I see it. Just saying, dogmatically, that they are the same does not make it so.

There is great tribulation associated with Antiochus 4 mentioned in the book of Daiel. It is his wicked reign.

There is also great tribulation spawned by the Roman invasion of Jerusalem in 70 AD, leading to the Jewish Diaspora of the present age. That is different than the reign of Antiochus 4.

There is also going to be great tribulation associated with the reign of Antichrist. That is a 3.5 year period, according to Dan 7 and according to the book of Revelation. These 3 examples of "great tribulation" may be referred to a "great tribulations," but the common use of that term does not mean they are the same event!

 

[Douggg]

It bothers me that you make these dogmatic statements while completely ignoring the points I've made. What, for example, have you done with my reference to Luke 21.20-24? In particular what do you do with...

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

This is what Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" as--wrath against the Jewish People, beginning in 70 AD and ending at his Return. This is as explicit as can be and you just say "no." I can't understand that, if you're a reasonable person. Are you unable to comprehend the point? Are you unwilling to answer the point?

There is a 1335 days period mentioned in Dan 12, but it does not identify with the "Great Tribulation" Jesus mentioned as a Jewish Punishment in the Olivet Discourse because that lasts far, far longer than 1335 days! It is much more likely to me that the 1290 days refer to Antiochus 4's reign, with the 1335 days extending the period to to the news of his demise reaching Jerusalem.


You're combining one "great tribulation" with another "great tribulation" with no thought to whether they even relate to each other, apart from the fact they use the same or similar words. This is not sound interpretion, as I see it. Just saying, dogmatically, that they are the same does not make it so.

There is great tribulation associated with Antiochus 4 mentioned in the book of Daiel. It is his wicked reign.

There is also great tribulation spawned by the Roman invasion of Jerusalem in 70 AD, leading to the Jewish Diaspora of the present age. That is different than the reign of Antiochus 4.

There is also going to be great tribulation associated with the reign of Antichrist. That is a 3.5 year period, according to Dan 7 and according to the book of Revelation. These 3 examples of "great tribulation" may be referred to a "great tribulations," but the common use of that term does not mean they are the same event!

Read Matthew 24:15-21. The great tribulation begins when the AoD (abomination of desolation) is setup on the temple mount.

 

[covenantee]

Read Matthew 24:15-21. The great tribulation begins when the AoD (abomination of desolation) is setup on the temple mount.



View attachment 78003

Why do you ignore Luke's identification of the AoD as the armies in Luke 21:20?

 

[ewq1938]

No, the Great Tribulation is a time period lasting 1335 days, during which, God's wrath will be poured out on the world in rebellion against Him. The Jewish people will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation during that time, Revelation 12:10.

The trib is not found in Rev 12, but it is in Rev 13. There is also not Jewish mass conversion spoken of in any part of the NT. 1335 is also not part of any NT prophecy. Rev speaks only of 42 months/1260 days.

Also, during that time period, Satan will be exerting his wrath on the inhabiters of the earth. The Great Tribulation in effect is the final great showdown between God and the angel of rebellion, violence, and evil, Satan.

No, it's the period where God allows satan to rule the world and persecute and kill Christian like never before. After that ios over, God gets vengeance. Again, none of this is in the timeframe Rev 12 covers.