The post-trib rapture will occur on the day that Jesus will come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe"

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm referring to this verse...

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

It should be obvious that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the day when we will be caught up to Him to meet Him in the air. What other day would He come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe"?

Only doctrinal bias could prevent someone from acknowledging that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 describes something that will occur on the same day that the rapture (gathering and catching up of the church to meet Jesus in the air) occurs. And doctrinal bias is the reason that pre-trib rapture adherents don't acknowledge this.

Here is what else Paul said will happen on that same day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

On that same day when Jesus comes "with His mighty angels" and is "glorified in His saints and...admired among all those who believe", Jesus will be "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

I assume that pre-tribs would agree with post-tribs that Jesus will be "taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" after the tribulation. But, unlike post-tribs, they disagree that we will be gathered and caught up to meet Jesus in the air on that same day. But, it seems clear to me that the time when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the same time when we will be caught up to meet Him in the air after which "we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Surely, Jesus will "be glorified in His saints and admired among all those who believe" when we meet Him. How could anyone deny that? When else would that happen? Paul taught that will happen on the same day that Jesus takes vengeance on unbelievers, not 3.5 or 7 years (or however long) before that, as pretribs believe.

It's clear to me that what Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is the same event that he describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3. Pre-tribs (and mid-tribs and anyone else who isn't post-trib) miss that the rapture and the wrath of Christ are part of the same event. Unfortunately, an inappropriate chapter break was made after 1 Thessalonians 4:18 causing some people to think that Paul starts describing a separate event from what he described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 starting in 1 Thessalonians 5, but the reality is that in 1 Thess 5 he starts talking about a different aspect (wrath against unbelievers) of the same event he had been talking about just before that (the second coming of Christ).

So, I'd like to see what pretribs have to say about this. Do you think there is any argument for saying that Jesus will not "be glorified in His saints and...be admired among all those who believe" when we meet Him in the air (when the rapture occurs) and that this will happen several years later instead? If so, please explain how that could be the case.

Another question I have for pretribs is this: do you think you would believe that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is not referring to the day of the rapture if you just read that verse without seeing the verses that precede it that refer to the wrath of Christ? Answer honestly.

 

[ScottA]

I'm referring to this verse...

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

It should be obvious that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the day when we will be caught up to Him to meet Him in the air. What other day would He come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe"?

Only doctrinal bias could prevent someone from acknowledging that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 describes something that will occur on the same day that the rapture (gathering and catching up of the church to meet Jesus in the air) occurs. And doctrinal bias is the reason that pre-trib rapture adherents don't acknowledge this.

Here is what else Paul said will happen on that same day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe".

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

On that same day when Jesus comes "with His mighty angels" and is "glorified in His saints and...admired among all those who believe", Jesus will be "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

I assume that pre-tribs would agree with post-tribs that Jesus will be "taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" after the tribulation. But, unlike post-tribs, they disagree that we will be gathered and caught up to meet Jesus in the air on that same day. But, it seems clear to me that the time when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" is the same time when we will be caught up to meet Him in the air after which "we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Surely, Jesus will "be glorified in His saints and admired among all those who believe" when we meet Him. How could anyone deny that? When else would that happen? Paul taught that will happen on the same day that Jesus takes vengeance on unbelievers, not 3.5 or 7 years (or however long) before that, as pretribs believe.

It's clear to me that what Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is the same event that he describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3. Pre-tribs (and mid-tribs and anyone else who isn't post-trib) miss that the rapture and the wrath of Christ are part of the same event. Unfortunately, an inappropriate chapter break was made after 1 Thessalonians 4:18 causing some people to think that Paul starts describing a separate event from what he described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 starting in 1 Thessalonians 5, but the reality is that in 1 Thess 5 he starts talking about a different aspect (wrath against unbelievers) of the same event he had been talking about just before that (the second coming of Christ).

So, I'd like to see what pretribs have to say about this. Do you think there is any argument for saying that Jesus will not "be glorified in His saints and...be admired among all those who believe" when we meet Him in the air (when the rapture occurs) and that this will happen several years later instead? If so, please explain how that could be the case.

Another question I have for pretribs is this: do you think you would believe that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is not referring to the day of the rapture if you just read that verse without seeing the verses that precede it that refer to the wrath of Christ? Answer honestly.

The key word there, is "in" (in His saints).

Which begs the question-- Is He "in" anyone even now? Which we would all look at differently now if not for the foretold "lie" causing "strong delusion" regarding Jesus' return, as told and taught by those "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" in the early church (2 Thessalonians 2:10-13).

What then shall we deny...that He is not in us, or that the scripture quoted is not true? Those of the early church were simply wrong about things...but we--if we now believe what they taught, knowing the full summation of all that was taught--we are all the more worse off, for we deny God either way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The key word there, is "in" (in His saints).

Which begs the question-- Is He "in" anyone even now? Which we would all look at differently now if not for the foretold "lie" causing "strong delusion" regarding Jesus' return, as told and taught by those "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" in the early church (2 Thessalonians 2:10-13).

What then shall we deny...that He is not in us, or that the scripture quoted is not true? Those of the early church were simply wrong about things...but we--if we now believe what they taught, knowing the full summation of all that was taught--we are all the more worse off, for we deny God either way.

The timing of the fulfillment of the verse that this thread is about, which is 2 Thessalonians 1:10, will be on the same day when "the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Are you implying that you think Jesus already came "from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

 

[JLB]

It's clear to me that what Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is the same event that he describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3.

Yes. Agreed.

Paul has this coming of the Lord in mind in these verses which contextually lay the groundwork for what he is about to say in Chapter 2.

Connective words such as Therefore and Now show that he is continuing his contextual frame of mind through Chapter 2.


and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:4


The coming of the the Lord is where the gathering together of the saints takes place in the resurrection and rapture.

 

[ScottA]

The timing of the fulfillment of the verse that this thread is about, which is 2 Thessalonians 1:10, will be on the same day when "the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Are you implying that you think Jesus already came "from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

Don't misunderstand, most who would assume or ask that question seem to think it means that what is being said is that Jesus came for all on a particular day already past. But no, I am not saying that.

What I am saying--which is the only way to reconcile all scripture--is that every time Jesus "comes...in His saints" ("but each one in his own order"...that is what happens--not in this world, not "by observation"--but in heaven.

But again, if one thinks they are not under the foretold "strong delusion" and what was taught is not "delusion"...of course, they are not inclined to believe what is actually true. In other words, if they believe the timing of events is what was taught by the church--they deny what the scriptures say regarding "strong delusion."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. Agreed.

Paul has this coming of the Lord in mind in these verses which contextually lay the groundwork for what he is about to say in Chapter 2.

Connective words such as Therefore and Now show that he is continuing his contextual frame of mind through Chapter 2.


and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:4


The coming of the the Lord is where the gathering together of the saints takes place in the resurrection and rapture.

Excellent point. It seems that placing a chapter break after 2 Thessalonians 1:12 was just as inappropriate as placing one after 1 Thessalonians 4:18, which I didn't really notice before you pointed this out. It causes some people to not realize that the verses in both 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:12 are all related to one event (the second coming of Christ), rather than two separate events as pre-tribs believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't misunderstand, most who would assume or ask that question seem to think it means that what is being said is that Jesus came for all on a particular day already past. But no, I am not saying that.

What I am saying--which is the only way to reconcile all scripture--is that every time Jesus "comes...in His saints" ("but each one in his own order"...that is what happens--not in this world, not "by observation"--but in heaven.

But again, if one thinks they are not under the foretold "strong delusion" and what was taught is not "delusion"...of course, they are not inclined to believe what is actually true. In other words, if they believe the timing of events is what was taught by the church--they deny what the scriptures say regarding "strong delusion."

In 2nd Thessalonians 1:10, Paul isn't referring to multiple days when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe". He refers specifically to "that day" which is the same day when Jesus will be revealed in flaming fire from heaven with His angels to take vengeance on all of those who do not believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:12, the strong delusion is something God sends to those who don't believe the gospel so that they would be saved. So, the strong delusion is in relation to people not believing the gospel unto salvation and is not in relation to people having an incorrect understanding of end times doctrine.

 

[ScottA]

In 2nd Thessalonians 1:10, Paul isn't referring to multiple days when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe". He refers specifically to "that day" which is the same day when Jesus will be revealed in flaming fire from heaven with His angels to take vengeance on all of those who do not believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:12, the strong delusion is something God sends to those who don't believe the gospel so that they would be saved. So, the strong delusion is in relation to people not believing the gospel unto salvation and is not in relation to people having an incorrect understanding of end times doctrine.

Okay, I see we need to back up.

Not to make this personal, although you are welcome to answer personally-- Do you know of anyone in whom Christ has come? If you know of more than one, did He "come in" them on "that day"--that same day? Or did He "come in" to them "but each one in his own order?"

Perhaps that is too simple. Perhaps. But does that explanation violate what is written...or just what is taught and has been believed?

As for His being "admired"--do those born again of the spirit of God not admire Him from that very day--"that day?"

As for the "flaming fire"--according to what Jesus said (Luke 17:20)--was it actually to be "by observation?"

As for "strong delusion"--does it say they shall not be "saved" (as you suggest)--or does it simply rather say, that "among those who perish" comes "strong delusion?" Simply meaning they are not yet saved when "strong delusion" comes upon them. But then--who do the scriptures say actually goes to "their destruction?" Peter tells us that it was and is "false teachers" "denying the Lord who bought them." Which is to say--as John said--they are those who do "not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."--which is what occurs when one is born again from above. "That day."

Fulfilling "But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught" (Isaiah 28:13)--caught in "strong delusion."

Which is what I have been saying. But without "the renewing of your mind"...one is more likely to believe what those "false teachers" have propagated for so long now--which by definition--is that foretold "strong delusion."

 

[shepherdsword]

The key word there, is "in" (in His saints).

Which begs the question-- Is He "in" anyone even now? Which we would all look at differently now if not for the foretold "lie" causing "strong delusion" regarding Jesus' return, as told and taught by those "who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" in the early church (2 Thessalonians 2:10-13).

He indwells all believers on an individual level. However, 2 Th 1:10 is speaking of a corporate indwelling (saintS)
More on this here: The Temple of Living Stones and those who are supposed to build it.

 

[ScottA]

He indwells all believers on an individual level. However, 2 Th 1:10 is speaking of a corporate indwelling (saintS)
More on this here: The Temple of Living Stones and those who are supposed to build it.

Yes, and unfortunately "false teachers" (as Peter said) have come into the church and spread the "destructive doctrines" in the midst of ("Christ in you/us") doing all that was promised--that is indeed occurring, but stifled among men--causing "strong delusion" (as Paul said).

Which is to say, that these things were and are occurring "not by observation" (as Jesus said), but as "Christ in you/us the hope of glory" (as Paul said) fulfilling "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God" (as John said)--as Christ has and is "come in His saints" (as Paul said).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, I see we need to back up.

Why is that? Can't you just straightforwardly respond to the straightforward points I made in my post?

Not to make this personal, although you are welcome to answer personally-- Do you know of anyone in whom Christ has come? If you know of more than one, did He "come in" them on "that day"--that same day? Or did He "come in" to them "but each one in his own order?"

Perhaps that is too simple. Perhaps. But does that explanation violate what is written...or just what is taught and has been believed?

You are so vague with your comments that it makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you. Stop playing games. Deal with what is actually written in the text of 2 Thessalonians 1:10. It refers to a single day that is coming in the future and not to multiples days. Stop trying to twist the text and stop playing games with your unhelpful, irrelevant questions.

As for His being "admired"--do those born again of the spirit of God not admire Him from that very day--"that day?"

As for the "flaming fire"--according to what Jesus said (Luke 17:20)--was it actually to be "by observation?"

The passage is in relation to His future second coming, so, yes, it will be observed. He will be bringing literal fire down upon the entire earth when He comes, as is written in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

As for "strong delusion"--does it say they shall not be "saved" (as you suggest)--or does it simply rather say, that "among those who perish" comes "strong delusion?"

Yes, it does say that. Did you not even read the text?

2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It couldn't be more clear. The ones who God sends strong delusion will end up being condemned because "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

Simply meaning they are not yet saved when "strong delusion" comes upon them.

LOL. You are clearly not even reading the text carefully at all. The text clearly says those on whom God sends strong delusion "all may be condemned" because they "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

But then--who do the scriptures say actually goes to "their destruction?" Peter tells us that it was and is "false teachers" "denying the Lord who bought them." Which is to say--as John said--they are those who do "not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."--which is what occurs when one is born again from above. "That day."

LOL! What in the world are you talking about? You speak complete nonsense. You are trying to say that when people deny that Jesus Christ has coming in the flesh, that is when they are born again? That's how it comes across, but I can't imagine you are actually intending to say that. You apparently have no ability to communicate your thoughts clearly, so it makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.

So, I'm not going to waste any more time on you. The purpose of this thread is to refute the pre-trib rapture belief using 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, so I would prefer to get feedback about my original post from those who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

 

[ScottA]

Why is that? Can't you just straightforwardly respond to the straightforward points I made in my post?

One point at a time then.

1. Why? Because you have missed an elementary point that can only be addressed at a more base level.

 

[ScottA]

You are so vague with your comments that it makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you. Stop playing games. Deal with what is actually written in the text of 2 Thessalonians 1:10. It refers to a single day that is coming in the future and not to multiples days. Stop trying to twist the text and stop playing games with your unhelpful, irrelevant questions.

I drew you a picture--not vague, but so detailed I had to make sure you did not take it personal.

And this is your response--after expecting that "I" should be more "straightforward? I was so straightforward, I was in your face asking you a personal question--while trying to be kind. Would you prefer I also put my foot on your throat? Talk about being "impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you!"

Meanwhile--who are you to say that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 "refers to a single day?" Are you saying that every day is NOT a single day? No, but you just never thought of it--which in the spiritual realm, means it was not revealed to you...until I said it. And as such things go historically, you are no different than the multitudes that have heard the true declared--and rejected it. Typical. What is hard to believe, is that with all that is written about this type of rejection scenario--you have apparently never taken it to heart, except perhaps regarding--not you, heaven forbid--but someone else.

And who told you "that day" was "coming in the future?"

As far as being "unhelpful"-- I have thrown you a lifeline in a sea of false teachings. Which is only "unhelpful" to those who propagated the "lie" you have believed.

Shall I continue?

 

[ScottA]

The passage is in relation to His future second coming, so, yes, it will be observed. He will be bringing literal fire down upon the entire earth when He comes, as is written in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Those two sentences make an oxymoron.

First--again--who told you His second coming is "future?"

As for observation--"it will be observed" is not what Jesus said--not biblical. You are obviously not reconciling all scripture.

As for 2 Peter 3:10-12-- That does not describe a observable event in this world--but describes its dissolving--observable only in the spirit and only from heaven where indeed, "every eye shall see."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I drew you a picture--not vague, but so detailed I had to make sure you did not take it personal.

And this is your response--after expecting that "I" should be more "straightforward? I was so straightforward, I was in your face asking you a personal question--while trying to be kind. Would you prefer I also put my foot on your throat? Talk about being "impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you!"

Meanwhile--who are you to say that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 "refers to a single day?" Are you saying that every day is NOT a single day? No, but you just never thought of it--which in the spiritual realm, means it was not revealed to you...until I said it. And as such things go historically, you are no different that the multitudes that have heard the true declared--and rejected it. Typical. What is hard to believe, is that with all that is written about this type of rejection scenario--you have apparently never taken it to heart, except perhaps regarding--not you, heaven forbid--but someone else.

And who told you "that day" was "coming in the future?"

As far as being "unhelpful"-- I have thrown you a lifeline in a sea of false teachings. Which is only "unhelpful" to those who propagated the "lie" you have believed.

Shall I continue?

Is there something you didn't understand about my having said I'm not going to waste any more time on you?

I would like to get feedback from some pre-tribs about what I said in the original post since the purpose of this thread is to refute the pre-trib rapture view.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those two sentences make an oxymoron.

First--again--who told you His second coming is "future?"

As for observation--"it will be observed" is not what Jesus said--not biblical. You are obviously not reconciling all scripture.

He said His kingdom did not come with observation and that is true. It's a spiritual kingdom, not a physical kingdom, and we're in His kingdom spiritually now. But, in terms of His future second coming, scripture says that He will come from heaven in the same manner that He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11), which was visibly and bodily. You are absolutely clueless when it comes to understanding scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, it does say that. Did you not even read the text?

2 Thessalonians 2: 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It couldn't be more clear. The ones who God sends strong delusion will end up being condemned because "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

The passage does not say they would never be saved, but rather that when the truth was presented, they were not then saved because they did not receive it The just put it off out of rejection.

Again, you simply did not see that possibility. Where the text does indeed offer two distinct different interpretations, you simply chose the other. But I have declared what is actually true--which is not mine--but mine to declare.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The passage does not say they would never be saved, but rather that when the truth was presented, they were not then saved because they did not receive it The just put it off out of rejection.

You are not reading the text carefully at all. It specifically says they will be condemned. Hello? Stop skimming over the text and read it carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

See that part I highlighted in red there? It shows that those on whom God sends strong/powerful delusion "will be condemned". It can't be more clear that they will end up not being saved and instead will be condemned, but you deny it, anyway. You need to ask God for wisdom so that you can understand what scripture is saying (James 1:5-7).

Again, you simply did not see that possibility. Where the text does indeed offer two distinct different interpretations, you simply chose the other. But I have declared what is actually true--which is not mine--but mine to declare.

You have declared falsehood because your beliefs come from your imagination rather than from the Holy Spirit. You are blatantly contradicting Paul's straightforward claim that those that this text refers to who receive strong delusion from God will be condemned.

 

[ScottA]

LOL. You are clearly not even reading the text carefully at all. The text clearly says those on whom God sends strong delusion "all may be condemned" because they "did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

So...it says "may be"--but you say, "will" be (condemned).

As long as you are making such assumptions...you really should not be making any claims whatsoever.

 

[ScottA]

LOL! What in the world are you talking about? You speak complete nonsense. You are trying to say that when people deny that Jesus Christ has coming in the flesh, that is when they are born again? That's how it comes across, but I can't imagine you are actually intending to say that. You apparently have no ability to communicate your thoughts clearly, so it makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.

So, I'm not going to waste any more time on you. The purpose of this thread is to refute the pre-trib rapture belief using 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, so I would prefer to get feedback about my original post from those who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

Like I said, we need to back up. Obviously you are not ready to even consider the greater truth of God that I have laid out. I was hopeful, but that was more advanced than I should have even mentioned.