Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[David in NJ]

Christ died so that He could become Lord of the dead and of the living.

Romans 14:9
--- "For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive, not dead]." ---

The dead are not risen from the dead yet.

Two separate scripture passages and two separate 'deaths'

Matt 22:23-33 is about Ab/Is/Ja and all who believed the Word, though their physical body died, yet their spirit&soul are Alive unto Salvation.

Only our flesh body dies and goes back to the earth.

The soul of man ends up in one of two places:
a.) In Paradise/before the Cross = Today we go immediately to Heaven
b.) The Pit of Gloom/Despair = separation from God

 

[David in NJ]

The only death the Bible ever speaks about is the death of the body.

The New Testament is never talking about the "death of the (human) spirit" when it talks about death either. It's only talking about the death of the body.

If Enoch did not taste death it means that his body did not die. Hebrews says that he did not taste death.

Copy @Davidpt

i have a little more of imho about what actually occurred with Enoch.

#1 - We KNOW that the LORD did not take his body to heaven = as no man ascended to Heaven until Christ's Ascension.

#2 - This leaves us to be completely dependent on what little the Scriptures says on this.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, you must read Revelation and you must not dare touch a single word to rearrange for your misunderstanding.

But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned the so-called deep things of Satan: I will place no further burden upon you than to hold fast to what you have until I come.
And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father.
And I will give him the morning star.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

As you keep saying, "it is written"....yes indeed it is, just that it is no longer being carved in stone, but in the new way of the SPIRIT now brother.

A little bit of light has thankfully shone through the veil for me this morning, on this piece of the puzzle at least.

I think we need to ask whether that scripture you quoted and others like it in Revelation are speaking literally or allegorically?

Iron scepter is the rod of His mouth...sword of the Spriit....His word, would you agree? As we are iron sharpening iron on the forum we are not fighting with literal iron swords, but with the word of God.

And Revelation is not speaking of anything new, but reiterating what scripture already speaks of:

Psa 2:6-9

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Isa 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


2Co 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ

Eph 6:10-17

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of HIS might.

Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

So is Revelation speaking of literal nations in those scrips that refer to Jesus ruling and smiting the nations with a rod of iron (His word)? Or is it speaking of spiritual warfare? Old covenant Israel was at war literally with the "heathen" nations round about her........but that was only a type/shadow/allegory for the spiritual war of the new covenant......"heathen" spirits, powers and principalities and spiritual strongholds of the "enemies of God". If the nations referred to in those Revelation scrips are allegorical for spiritual enemies of God, then we should know that this is happening as we speak in this age, as those scrips in the Epistles show. As I've said many times I can't parse (rightly divide) everything, but I do believe we need to look at these Rev scrips in this light....spiritual war/rule exercising spiritual authority and might, using a spiritual weapon against spiritual enemies and not literal nations necessarily.

Rev 2:27
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron (iron scepter); as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Hillsage]

Can you see the Masters teaching here?

MASTERS ?????? Are you talking about His teaching? If so you forgot to add an apostrophe; e.g. MASTER'S teaching. Or are you talking about OTHERS posting here?

“Arise”: A parable of baptism, sleeping in death, awakened by the Master’s touch, hearing the command: “Arise and walk!”

Breath returned!

I gave 3 verses in that post. All agreeing with 'the Master' and His spirit leaving before his last breath. And Him also teaching over the head of his apostles concerning Lazarus. So your post leaves me......leaving you.....with your 'opinion'. And it leaves me keeping mine.

 

[Davidpt]

GEN 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.

You're right 'and he died' is missing. But so is 'what died' and 'what lived on' after those 365 years? I believe the body and the soul of Enoch were in the grave but his spirit was not?

The phrase ”he was not“ concernng Enoch is used of death in the Old Testament. We read, for example ;

Jer. 31:15, “….A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not“.

Job 7:21, “…..for now shall I sleep in the dust; but Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be“.

Now let's consider the Greek word translated “see” in Heb. 11:5, in the phrase, ”that he/ENOCH should not see death”.
That Greek word is “eidon”. In the appendix (#133) of the Companion Study Bible we see the following definition: “eidon= to see: implying not the mere act of looking, but the actual perception.….”.

To better understand this definition, let us consider the Webster’s Dictionary definition of the word “perceive” which is; “Perceive: awareness of….”. If we are to take into due consideration the definition of the Greek word translated “see” we must understand this phrase to say that Enoch should not be aware of death. Obviously then, he had been not aware of his own death. This does not tell us that Enoch did not die, only that Enoch was not aware of his death when it happened. Much like a person who dies while under anesthesia during an operation, is not aware of his death.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


When we get to verse 13, we then have to determine who 'all these died in faith' are referring to based on the following--not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

In verse 4, for example, it mentions Abel. As to these promises not received yet, did Abel see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

In verse 5 it mentions Enoch. As to these promises not received yet, did Enoch see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

And in verse 7 it mentions Noah. As to these promises not received yet, did Noah see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

So on and so on. The point being, one can't divorce 'These all died in faith' from the remainder of that verse, since the remainder of that verse is telling us who all these that died in faith are pertaining to here. IOW, that's how context generally works. One can't assume Enoch too is meant in verse 13 unless all of the following fits him to a T as well---not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear

BTW, what about verse 3? That involves faith as well, does it not? Yet, what does it have to do with verse 13 and this---These all died in faith?

 

[Zao is life]

Matt 22:23-33 is about Ab/Is/Ja and all who believed the Word, though their physical body died, yet their spirit&soul are Alive unto Salvation.

No it isn't. The Sadducees were bringing arguments against the concept of the resurrection of the dead to Jesus, so as biblical proof of the coming resurrection of the dead, Jesus pointed out:

1. The fact that God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive [zao]

Note: Jesus was not saying God is the God "of those who have (spiritual) life [zoe] - He said God is the God of those WHO ARE ALIVE [zao] - not DEAD; and

2. The fact that God is called "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob", who had all died.

Jesus said:

"As touching the dead [nekros], that they rise [egeiro]: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead [nekros], but the God of the living [zao: of those who are alive]: ye therefore do greatly err." (Mark 12:26-27).

Note: Jesus said nothing to the Sadducees about God being the God "of those who have (spiritual) life [zoe] - He said God is the God of those WHO ARE ALIVE [zao] - not DEAD

The Sadducees understood that they could bring no further argument against the resurrection (of the body) from the dead, because Jesus reminded them that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were dead, and God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive in the body [zao].

"God of the living" - derived from your (false) main-stream Amillennialist Christian theology
(you may as well be an Amillennialist when you repeat Amillennialist theology):
​

"In the Bible, God is referred to as the "God of the living," emphasizing His relationship with those who are spiritually alive. (False)

(The Bible does **not** talk about created humans being "spiritually alive", but of those who have been given eternal life, which is in Christ - who alone possesses eternal life in Himself).

The truth:

1. There is no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection or a "spiritual" quickening (a quickening of a "dead human spirit") spoken of in the New Testament - as though such a "regenerated dead human spirit" is another source of eternal life [zoe aionios].

2. In the Bible, the living [zao] God who alone is spiritually alive [zoe], having (eternal) life in Himself, is referred to as the "God of the living", emphasizing His relationship with created human beings who are alive [zao].

False: "Jesus used this phrase to argue against the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection of the body from the dead, to indicate that these patriarchs were still alive in God's presence." (false).

What's the point of Jesus using this as an example of the resurrection from the dead then - if He was not pointing out that they were dead?

"As touching the dead [nekros], that they rise [egeiro]: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead [nekros], but the God of the living [zao: of those who are alive]: ye therefore do greatly err." (Mark 12:26-27).

True: Jesus was referring to the fact that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not bodily living [zao], yet God was nevertheless still their God, therefore Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - who had died and were therefore dead, not zao (alive), would rise again from the dead bodily (hence they will be zao - alive in their resurrected bodies following their resurrection from the dead).

Hence, Jesus proved to the Saduccees that their arguments against the resurrection of the dead were all false. (Mark 12:26–27).

"I am the Resurrection [o anastasis]
and (I am) the ZOE! (the life).
He who believes in Me, though he die,
yet he shall live (ZAO: he shall be alive)."

(The resurrection of the dead renders the one who died alive again):

"And whoever is ZAO (alive) and believes in Me shall never die." (shall be immortal) (John 11:23-26).​

"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao: lived again in a body that is not dead], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive in a body that is not dead]." (Romans 14:9).

 

[Zao is life]

i have a little more of imho about what actually occurred with Enoch.

#1 - We KNOW that the LORD did not take his body to heaven = as no man ascended to Heaven until Christ's Ascension.

#2 - This leaves us to be completely dependent on what little the Scriptures says on this.

Christ ASCENDED to heaven.

The scripture does not say that Enoch ASCENDED to heaven. It says He was TAKEN by God.

None of us will ever ASCEND to heaven when we die. Our souls are TAKEN there.

The only one who can ASCEND to heaven is He who came down FROM heaven.
Elijah too, was TAKEN UP to heaven - he did not ASCEND there.

Brother you can't teach by making statements if you don't know what you are talking about.

In any case, in Enoch's case, we are not told "where" God took Him - only that God took him - but in Elijah's case, we are told he was taken up - a chariot and horsemen of fire were sent to take him (2 Kings 2:11).

 

[Hillsage]

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When we get to verse 13, we then have to determine who 'all these died in faith' are referring to based on the following--not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

In verse 4, for example, it mentions Abel. As to these promises not received yet, did Abel see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

In verse 5 it mentions Enoch. As to these promises not received yet, did Enoch see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

And in verse 7 it mentions Noah. As to these promises not received yet, did Noah see them afar off, and was persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that he was a stranger and pilgrim on the earth?

So on and so on. The point being, one can't divorce 'These all died in faith' from the remainder of that verse, since the remainder of that verse is telling us who all these that died in faith are pertaining to here. IOW, that's how context generally works. One can't assume Enoch too is meant in verse 13 unless all of the following fits him to a T as well---not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear

BTW, what about verse 3? That involves faith as well, does it not? Yet, what does it have to do with verse 13 and this---These all died in faith?

You have majored on a minor point above, IN MY OPINION. I deal with the difference in the Greek word used for "receive", which you have not mentioned. The Greek word for "receive" in Heb 11:3 is not DECOMAI, it is LAMBANO. [@lambano] And no one in this 'Faith list' ever had the chance to LAMBANO/receive those promises FROM God. Why? Because they had never been given to the OT or the OLD COVENANT. For the NT promises were a fulfillment available for the NT generation ,which would be under the NEW COVENANT.

I am just going to copy/paste a study I did years ago on these two words. It's from an 18 page study on the baptism from the Holy Spirit of God.

Quote ""THE ENGLISH WORD "RECEIVE" AND THE 2 GREEK WORDS
‘DECHOMAI’ AND ‘LAMBANO’​

There are two different ‘primary’ Greek words and both are translated into the same English word “receive” in your bible. Understanding their defined difference is important, to understanding this lesson. One Greek word is ‘dechomai’ and the other is ‘lambano’.

VINES GREEK DICTIONARY says this, concerning the word ‘RECEIVE’: “Note; There is a certain distinction between lambano and dechomai (more pronounced in the earlier, classical Gr. Use), in that in many instances lambano suggests a self-prompted taking, whereas dechomai more frequently indicates “a welcoming or an appropriating reception” (Grimm-Thayer Greek Lexicon).”

DECOMAI is the Greek word, which is always used in reference to someone ‘receiving the word’, or accepting Christ for the salvation of our spirit. It does not indicate us doing anything actively 'to get'...we merely have our hand open and with repentance and confession it is ‘freely given’, or placed in our hand, so to speak. This is what happens when our spirit gets regenerated or born from above. At the time of our ‘born again experience’ we then have the same perfect ‘spirit of Christ’ in us that Jesus was born with. It is also the same “spirit”, which Jesus yielded up to the Father on the cross (1Cor 6:17 and Luke 23:46). On the cross He never said; “our spirit” or “the Holy Spirit” he said “MY spirit”.

LAMBANO is another Greek word, which is always used in reference to someone receiving the baptism of, or from,
‘The Holy Spirit’. This word does not indicate “a welcoming or appropriating reception.” This word for receive indicates an ‘active going after’ something. It is like a football receiver running to ‘receive’ a pass. This word lambano is indicative of an active participation in order to complete the reception…. Or receiving of something. In this case it would be tongues.

Example; What do you have to do, to receive change? You simply hold out your hand and someone puts it in your hand. (decomai). But what does the football player have to do to receive a pass? The quaterback throws it ,and the receiver has to 'go after' and catch it to receive/(lambano) it.

The best scriptural reference I can give which includes both Greek words in their unique usage is Acts 8:

ACT 8:14, 15 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received/dechomai the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive/lambano holy ghost:

In biblical context, those who were to receive/lambano the Holy Spirit, were already water baptized (8:12) by Phillip after they had received/dechomai the word of God and repented for salvation (of their spirits to be ‘born again’ and saved).""
End Quote

Again, I'm not trying to derail 'this thread' concerning the controversial tongues issue.

 

[Hiddenthings]

MASTERS ?????? Are you talking about His teaching? If so you forgot to add an apostrophe; e.g. MASTER'S teaching. Or are you talking about OTHERS posting here?

"The" Master!

I gave 3 verses in that post. All agreeing with 'the Master' and His spirit leaving before his last breath. And Him also teaching over the head of his apostles concerning Lazarus. So your post leaves me......leaving you.....with your 'opinion'. And it leaves me keeping mine.

Two major lies are taught in Christianity Hillsage.

1. Death is not death
2. Life is not Life

You don't believe Jesus fully cease to exist in death.
You believe Angels (divine nature) can die

Both of these ideas are introduced doctrines which are of the flesh not the Spirit.

Christ went from flesh (death) nature to divine nature (life) and now can die no more.

For me Revelation 1:18 holds power but for you it cannot.

and the one who lives! I was dead (fully!), but look, now I am alive (fully!)—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave)! Re 1:17–18.

So why has this verse lost its power on the Christian?

By introducing Hypostasis they have managed to maintain many false teachings at the expense of understanding the victory over sin's flesh (Romans 8:1-4)

How can immortality and mortality dwell in one body?
Where are you taught that this immortal spirit is in you?
Where are the words immortal spirit used in the Bible?
Where is the teaching of Spirits in Heaven and what are their activities while there?
Where does the Lord teach anywhere in his ministry about such things?
What does Christ teach about your nature?

 

[Hiddenthings]

No it isn't. The Sadducees were bringing arguments against the concept of the resurrection of the dead to Jesus, so as biblical proof of the coming resurrection of the dead, Jesus pointed out:

A lot of noise in that post.

Let me ask you a straight forward question:

David fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers. Acts. 13:36; 2:29.

Because you separate the person from the body, something nowhere taught in the Word of God you are forced to conclude that only David’s body slept while his so-called immortal spirit lived on.

You and I both know that first-century hearers did not believe this at all! That misunderstanding was introduced later (through councils of men) and that the resurrection was understood as the restoration of the whole person, life and body together, not some disembodied continuation.

It is for this reason the overcoming of the Sadducees false teaching and unbelief in the resurrection was provided to ensure that hope was preached and understood.

David is not alive in any state or form as understood by himself and taught by the Apostles.

 

[Zao is life]

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).

Jesus affirmed this by saying, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).

Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).

Repeating things that I have said already such as the above is not going to help your error to be erased - because your major doctrinal issues and your error lies in the fact that you cannot see that the human being, the Man, who became the representative of man (the Son of man),

is the Son of God and also the Word of God in the flesh.

The man Jesus Christ who rose bodily from the dead is alive forever in His glorified body which cannot die.

The Word became a man, and in His glorified body, remains a man and the Father is IN HIM and He is IN THE FATHER.

It's pointless talking about spiritual things to someone who is a heretic though. Because your human mind and self-exaltation has got in the way.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Man in Death

Here are a list of verses all teaching a consistent message about the death state.

Ecclesiastes 9:5–6: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10: Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Ecclesiastes 3:19–20: For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Job 34:15: All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

Job 30:23: For I know that you will bring me to death and to the house appointed for all living.

Job 14:14: If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Job 3:11, 13: Why did I not die at birth, come out from the womb and expire? For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest.

Job 3:17: There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest.

Job 10:18–19: Why did you bring me out from the womb? Would that I had died before any eye had seen me, and were as though I had not been, carried from the womb to the grave.

Daniel 12:13: But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.

Isaiah 38:18–19: For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness. The living, the living, he thanks you, as I do this day.

Psalm 6:5: For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psalm 88:10, 12: Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon?

Psalm 146:3–4: Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation. When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Genesis 15:15: As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.

Joshua 23:14: And now I am about to go the way of all the earth.

1 Kings 2:2: I am about to go the way of all the earth.

Psalm 39:13: Look away from me, that I may smile again, before I depart and am no more!

Acts 13:36: For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption.

Acts 2:29: Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Repeating things that I have said already such as the above is not going to help your error to be erased - because your major doctrinal issues and your error lies in the fact that you cannot see that the human being, the Man, who became the representative of man (the Son of man),

is the Son and also the Word of God in the flesh.

The man Jesus Christ who rose bodily from the dead is alive forever in His glorified body which cannot die.

The Word became a man, and in His glorified body, remains a man and the Father is IN HIM and He is IN THE FATHER.

It's pointless talking about spiritual things to someone who is a heretic though. Because your human mind and self-exaltation has got in the way.

As I said, you are unable to grasp those references because their truth is not yet known to you. When you are ready and willing, it may be revealed to you; but until then, you remain committed to error.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Zao is life

If you understand that your hope was Christ's hope then you would know and understand how important it was for Jesus to be granted immortality.

Acts 2:28 — “You (God) have made known to me (Jesus) the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.”

Psalm 102:27 — “But you are the same, and your years have no end.”

Psalm 110:3 — “Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.”

John 10:17 — “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.”

John 5:26 — “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.”

1 John 1:2 — “The life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.”

Revelation 1:18 — “and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.”

How much harm do you do to the record if you believe the Master was always in possession of that Life? In an instance you remove his inheritance and his reward...and you remove it for yourself also.

 

[Zao is life]

A lot of noise in that post.

Let me ask you a straight forward question:

No there's too much noise in all your posts and besides that, you keep showing that you do not read what I say in my posts by claiming I said things I said nothing about, like you did again below.

I said nothing about any of this in the post you are quoting:

David fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers. Acts. 13:36; 2:29.

Because you separate the person from the body, something nowhere taught in the Word of God you are forced to conclude that only David’s body slept while his so-called immortal spirit lived on.

You and I both know that first-century hearers did not believe this at all! That misunderstanding was introduced later (through councils of men) and that the resurrection was understood as the restoration of the whole person, life and body together, not some disembodied continuation.

It is for this reason the overcoming of the Sadducees false teaching and unbelief in the resurrection was provided to ensure that hope was preached and understood.

David is not alive in any state or form as understood by himself and taught by the Apostles.

But you're a heretic who corrupts what scripture teaches by adding falsehood and taking away from scripture what scripture is saying so I expect of you to add to and take away from my posts.

 

[marks]

As I said, you are unable to grasp those references because their truth is not yet known to you. When you are ready and willing, it may be revealed to you; but until then, you remain committed to error.

That goes right back to you . . .

 

[marks]

No there's too much noise in all your posts and besides that, you keep showing that you do not read what I say in my posts by claiming I said things I said nothing about, like you did again below.

I've had the exact same experience with this fellow.

Much love!

 

[Hillsage]

Christ ASCENDED to heaven.

The scripture does not say that Enoch ASCENDED to heaven. It says He was TAKEN by God.

The Hebrew word for "taken/took" is SRN 3947 lâqach/ law-kakh';
A primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications): - accept, bring, buy, carry away, drawn, fetch, get, infold, X many, mingle, place, receive (-ing), reserve, seize, send for, take (away, -ing, up), use, win.

So can you help prove to me, that this word "taken, or took" (depending on your bible's translation) supports your cliam above? My search has revealed 'that Hebrew word' is in the OT 966 times!!!! And that 1 word is interpreted into 32 different English words in the OT. I'm simply having trouble standing on the scale of truth ...with you, concerning your above comment......or your comment below. Which has a totally different reason for not being as true as we all, were probably taught in the past. I know I was taught to believe like you still do.

None of us will ever ASCEND to heaven when we die. We are TAKEN there.

The only one who can ASCEND to heaven is He who came down FROM heaven.
Elijah too, was TAKEN UP to heaven - he did not ASCEND there.

Brother you can't teach by making statements if you don't know what you are talking about.

In any case, in Enoch's case, we are not told "where" God took Him - only that God took him - but in Elijah's case, we are told he was taken up - a chariot and horsemen of fire were sent to take him (2 Kings 2:11).

Apparently you also don't know this FACT comcerning your quoted verse above;

To begin with;

The SUMMATION point, of all below starting with 2KI 2:11 is, that Elijah was taken up in the time of Ahaziah as recorded in II Kings 2:12. Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram as recorded in II Chron. 21:12. Jehoram lived after Ahaziah’s death making the Elijiah’s letter written on earth after Elijah was taken up.


2KI 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heavenS.

Also, the OT Hebrew word translated “heaven” ,in the above verse, is “shahmahyim“. The “im” tells us that this "heaven" is plural, i.e. there is more than one heaven.

It is used of the dwelling place of God in Gen. 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth”.
It is also used in Gen.1: 26 where we read, “and God said, ‘Let us make man in Our image…..and let them have dominion over…… the fowls of the AIR (shahmahyim).…..”

I believe that as we consider II Chron. 21:12 we will have the answer as to which heaven Elijah was carried away unto.

II Chron. 21:12“And there came a writing to him (King Jehoram) from Elijah the prophet…….”.

This “verse above” came to King Jehoram after Elijah was taken up into the heavens. How do we know that?
To begin we must understand that just as the four Gospels were records of the same period of time, so also did the book of Kings and Chronicles record events of the same time period. We read in I Kings 2:12 that Solomon began to reign in the place of David. And we read in I Chron. 29:22 that Solomon began to reign. In other words from I Kings 2 all the way through to the end of II Kings covers the same period of time as does I Chron. 29 all the way through the end of II Chron.

Now when Elijah wrote his letter, we read in II Kings chapter one of Ahaziah’s illness and how the Lord told Elijah to meet Ahaziah’s messengers.

Yes, Elijah was taken and translated from one place to another, like Phillip was taken, to the Eunuch in the desert in Acts 8.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No there's too much noise in all your posts and besides that, you keep showing that you do not read what I say in my posts by claiming I said things I said nothing about, like you did again below.

I said nothing about any of this in the post you are quoting:



But you're a heretic who corrupts what scripture teaches by adding falsehood and taking away from scripture what scripture is saying so I expect of you to add to and take away from my posts.

You are unable to engage honestly with the text because you are trying to impose preconceived notions onto passages that state their meaning plainly.

Your approach of separating the person from the body is not taught anywhere in Scripture, and it leaves you in a difficult position, one where you feel compelled to label me a heretic, which does not reflect well on your argument.

Is David alive today? Yes or no?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, Elijah was taken and translated from one place to another, like Phillip was taken, to the Eunuch in the desert in Acts 8.

There are so many examples of this in Scripture the evidence is overwhelming!