"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[Justified]

So why did the Holy Spirit descend on Christ in bodily form at his baptism, what was the need?

Really? That was in my post. It was a sign to John the Baptist of who the Son of God was. It was the inauguration of the ministry of Jesus as the Messiah. It explicitly tells us that.

Address everything in block capitals, including, when all is defeated including the last enemy death, Christ WILL be made SUBJECT to God
Or in your language, when all is defeated, including the last enemy death, God will be made subject to God

Here it is again :
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must REIGN UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him(Christ), it is clear that THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself WILL BE MADE SUBJECT to him who put everything under him so that God will be all in all 1Cor15:24-28

First, once again, to not take everything into account is to take it out of context, which will likely lead to an incorrect understanding. Proof-texting such as this is almost always going to lead to error.

Second, in no way whatsoever does the passage mean that the Son isn't also truly God. We have plenty of passages throughout the NT, some of which have been given, that show that Jesus is also truly God, which is one of the meanings of the title "Son of God." That has to be able to fit whatever understanding of the passage one has.

It is precisely that Jesus is both truly man and truly God, that he is God in human flesh, that is needed for understanding. It was as God in human flesh (John 1:14; 5:18, 8:58; 10:30; Phil 2:5-8) that Jesus accomplished our salvation through his death and resurrection. So, the Son is equal in dignity and glory and deity to the Father, but when he became human, he became functionally subordinate to the Father for our salvation, and will remain subordinate to the Father for eternity as the God-man, while never losing his equality with the Father.

That is why must take everything into account and make sense of all of it, not just the bits that are easy to understand or that fit our beliefs.

 

[MonoBiblical]

James lays out what faith is for the Christian (James 2:14-24). He states that justificaton comes NOT from faith (pistis) only - but from out obedience to that faith, by what we DO. Paul makes the same case in 1 Cor 13:1-3.

When the young rich man asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life – did Jesus answer hm by saying that he must have faith? NO – he told him that he must follow the Commandments and DO what is right by giving to the poor and follow Him (Matt. 19:16-22).

Anyway – this conversation has strayed from the original objection to my posting the Biblical truth that the Church is ONE – not many . . .

In English, it is faith alone, since only those who have deeds have faith, but the Latin fide is not defined this way. Trust which is not the equivalent of obedience and is what fide is. Now since faith is on every federal reserve note, you must admit that obedience is its new definition unlike pistis and fide. If Catholics had a point, you would fix the translation of monos and pistis.

Even the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are many.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Really? That was in my post. It was a sign to John the Baptist of who the Son of God was. It was the inauguration of the ministry of Jesus as the Messiah. It explicitly tells us that.



First, once again, to not take everything into account is to take it out of context, which will likely lead to an incorrect understanding. Proof-texting such as this is almost always going to lead to error.

Second, in no way whatsoever does the passage mean that the Son isn't also truly God. We have plenty of passages throughout the NT, some of which have been given, that show that Jesus is also truly God, which is one of the meanings of the title "Son of God." That has to be able to fit whatever understanding of the passage one has.

It is precisely that Jesus is both truly man and truly God, that he is God in human flesh, that is needed for understanding. It was as God in human flesh (John 1:14; 5:18, 8:58; 10:30; Phil 2:5-8) that Jesus accomplished our salvation through his death and resurrection. So, the Son is equal in dignity and glory and deity to the Father, but when he became human, he became functionally subordinate to the Father for our salvation, and will remain subordinate to the Father for eternity as the God-man, while never losing his equality with the Father.

That is why must take everything into account and make sense of all of it, not just the bits that are easy to understand or that fit our beliefs.

Well you didn't address it all did you, and I must say, you are the first person Ive come across who says for eternity Jesus will be a God man even when we have new bodies! You've just generalised without addressing each thing individually.
We better leave it there, as we've each addressed one segment of scripture from the other. But Im afraid, I don't much of your explanation of 1Cor15:28, I doubt any other trinitarian would who I've previously debated on this.

Im not an expert on ex nihilo, as Im sure you would admit you are not either, but from the biblical begining, the Holy Spirit fully dwelt in Christ. For Jesus prayed to the Father:
JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they(believers) also be in us.
Believers can only be in Father and Son through the Holy Spirit, and Jesus prayed:
JUST AS..........

You should read verse 22:
That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one
Thought I'd mention that as you put John10:30 up
Thanks for that chat

 

[Justified]

Well you didn't address it all did you,

What didn't I address?

and I must say, you are the first person Ive come across who says for eternity Jesus will be a God man even when we have new bodies!

I am far from the person to say that Jesus will remain the God-man for eternity. What does us having new bodies have to do with Jesus?

1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
...
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

You've just generalised without addressing each thing individually.

I don't know what you mean here.

We better leave it there, as we've each addressed one segment of scripture from the other.

Well, no, I've addressed your passages but you have not addressed most of mine. I can make a list if you like.

But Im afraid, I don't much of your explanation of 1Cor15:28, I doubt any other trinitarian would who I've previously debated on this.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Im not an expert on ex nihilo, as Im sure you would admit you are not either, but from the biblical begining, the Holy Spirit fully dwelt in Christ.

Where is that stated in Scripture? You also don't seem to understand that John 1:1-2 states that the Word, the preincarnate Son, was with God when the beginning began, that is, for all "eternity past."

For Jesus prayed to the Father:
JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they(believers) also be in us.
Believers can only be in Father and Son through the Holy Spirit, and Jesus prayed:
JUST AS..........

You should read verse 22:
That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one
Thought I'd mention that as you put John10:30 up
Thanks for that chat

Again, you're taking things out of context. You end up pitting Scripture against itself. Jesus was praying for the unity of believers and the unity of believers with the Father and the Son; that is the context. That is speaking of unity of mind and purpose. That is very different from Jesus claiming that he and the Father are one, which is claiming to be one in nature.

 

[saved by grace 101]

I am far from the person to say that Jesus will remain the God-man for eternity.



Well, no, I've addressed your passages but you have not addressed most of mine. I can make a list if you like.




Again, you're taking things out of context. You end up pitting Scripture against itself. Jesus was praying for the unity of believers and the unity of believers with the Father and the Son; that is the context. That is speaking of unity of mind and purpose. That is very different from Jesus claiming that he and the Father are one, which is claiming to be one in nature.

This will be my last post
So now you are saying Jesus will not be the God man for eternity.
Paul says when all has been defeated including the last enemy death (in your language) God will be subject to God.

Ive addressed one passage of yours as you addressed one of mine. I didn't put numerous amounts of other scripture up and request you address them all did I
There are other subjects that interest more to discuss than this one.

Im taking nothing out of context, I just repeated the plain words of Jesus. In verses 22&23 he was speaking of unity of believers, in verse 21 he prays we will be in Father and son as they are in each other







0

 

[Justified]

This will be my last post
So now you are saying Jesus will not be the God man for eternity.

No, I'm still saying that.

Paul says when all has been defeated including the last enemy death (in your language) God will be subject to God.

The Son, as God, will be subject to the Father, who is also God.

Ive addressed one passage of yours as you addressed one of mine.

I've addressed more than one of yours, even on this page alone.

I didn't put numerous amounts of other scripture up and request you address them all did I

No, you didn't, and that is a part of the problem, as you are leaving out significant amounts of context.

There are other subjects that interest more to discuss than this one.

That's too bad. Who Jesus is is absolutely central to salvation and should be the entire basis of our theology.

Im taking nothing out of context, I just repeated the plain words of Jesus.

In doing so, as I pointed out, you're ignoring many other plain words of Jesus and those of his Apostles. That means you're taking those "plain words of Jesus" out of context.

Look at what else Jesus says:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Look at what John says about Jesus:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

And Thomas:

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Paul:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The writer of Hebrews:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

Peter:

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


That's a relatively small sampling of all that the NT says about who Jesus is.

 

[keithr]

If you are going to call a quote a "misquote" then quote the same verse the same, perhaps you should explain what you think is amiss when the words are the same.

Err, you clearly didn't correctly read what I wrote! I hope you pay better attention when you read the Bible.
I don't know what "quote the same verse the same" means, but you didn't provide a verse reference, but there is only one verse in the Bible which has the phrase "Christ in you", which is Colossians 1:27. That's what I quoted in full, and I pointed out what the difference was (God -> glory).

As you misquoted it I guessed that you might not have understood what the verse meant, so I then quoted a couple of other verses to help explain it. You're welcome.

 

[saved by grace 101]

No, I'm still saying that.


The Son, as God, will be subject to the Father, who is also God.


I've addressed more than one of yours, even on this page alone.


No, you didn't, and that is a part of the problem, as you are leaving out significant amounts of context.


That's too bad. Who Jesus is is absolutely central to salvation and should be the entire basis of our theology.


In doing so, as I pointed out, you're ignoring many other plain words of Jesus and those of his Apostles. That means you're taking those "plain words of Jesus" out of context.

Look at what else Jesus says:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Look at what John says about Jesus:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

And Thomas:

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Paul:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The writer of Hebrews:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

Peter:

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


That's a relatively small sampling of all that the NT says about who Jesus is.

I never stay on these websites long, but I will play along with you here.

John8:58 has already been addressed. God spoke through the angel from the burning bush as God spoke through Christ!

John1:1-3

Well, you believe we must apply context to scripture verses and bring them into line with other verses, that is your rule, so Im sure, you will not complain at me doing that now. John states:

No man hath seen God at ANYTIME 1John4:12

Who has never been seen?

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. John6:46 So the one true God has never been seen.

We will come back to that.

The God of Israel in Ex24:9-11 was seen by 74 of the leaders of the Israelites. And yet, no man hath seen God at anytime. So who did they see?

They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ 1Cor10:3&4

He came to that which was his own(Israel), but his own did not receive him. John1:11

Christ was the God of Israel seen in the dessert.

You quoted Heb1:8 correctly, God referred to Christ with the title ‘’God’’ but you should have quoted the next verse also. In that verse God state he is THE God of Christ.

So what do we make of this, is God the God of God? Well remember, Jesus himself stated many were referred to as gods in biblical times, and we know Christ was given the title ‘’God’’ but NOT the one true God. Jesus testified that title belonged to the Father alone. Therefore, the one TRUE God is THE God of Christ who simply had the title God, and the one TRUE God has never been seen, and he is the Father!

Now back to John1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word(Jesus), and the Word was with God(the Father), and the Word was God(but not the one true God as already established). 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it. John1:1-3

In this sense the spirit of God fully resides in Christ, or, God fully resides in Christ through the Spirit. The word is God's word, not Christ's word! We must, as you say bring verses into line with the rest of scripture! And, the Father is the only TRUE God who has never been seen, and he is THE God of Christ!

All things came FROM the Father THROUGH Christ 1Cor8:6

If the Holy Spirit, which is God’s power on earth did not fully reside in Christ the world could not have been created through him. As Jesus said:

My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me John7:16

Christ was full of the Holy Spirit Luke4:1

He went in the power of the Holy Spirit Luke4:14

He cast out demons by the power of the Spirit Matt12:28

Therefore he healed people by the power of the Spirit

Christ spoke the words of God for the spirit was on him without limit John3:34
The above obviously fits in perfectly with Christ's words:
JUST AS you are in me and I am in you may they(believers) also be in us. John17:21
As believers can only be in Father and Son through the Spirit, that is how Father and Son are in each other, something you reject. Though it is proved true by where the bible states Christ's power came from for his ministry here on earth!

The Holy Spirit who descended on Christ in BODILY FORM at his baptism
So, without the Holy Spirit dwelliing in Him, Christ could have done none of the above! Therefore, the Spirit of God who fully dwelt in Christ created everything THROUGH HIM. And hence, everytghing comes FROM God, THROUGH Christ
So all of that covers Col1:16&17 & Heb1:10-12. Strange you posted verse8 plus 10-12 but omitted verse 9 isn’t it!

Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God AND of Jesus our Lord. 1Peter1:2

So that just about covers all your scriptures. Oops, nearly forgot. John20:28

Thomas recognised God, via the Spirit was in Christ in BODILY FORM, right there in front of him. But only three chapters earlier, Christ had stated there is only one TRUE God, the Father, not the son and not the Holy Spirit, only the Father, who had never been seen! Or, you can view it that David, (Psalms110:1, Elizabeth(Luke1:43) and Thomas were all Israelites, and the God of Israel(Ex24:9-11) came to this earth.
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Daniel7:13&14
All amounts to the same thing, God, via the Spirit fully dwells in Christ!!

However, you could not specifically address Paul’s statement that though everything has been put under Christ, THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ, you just generalised. And you flip flopped concerning Jesus being God man for eternity.

When all is defeated including the last enemy death, believers will live in the new Jerusalem, the new Heaven on this earth. At that time, I have never come across any trinitarian on these websites who would refer to Jesus as a God man

Yet that is when Paul states Christ WILL be made SUBJECT to God. Or to you, God will be made subject to God.

So you didn’t do a very good job in addressing the segment of scripture placed before you did you!

BTW

Do not ask me anymore questions or put anymore scripture before me unless you are firstly prepared to address what I would place before you. If you do, it will all be ignored

 

[ScottA]

Err, you clearly didn't correctly read what I wrote! I hope you pay better attention when you read the Bible.
I don't know what "quote the same verse the same" means, but you didn't provide a verse reference, but there is only one verse in the Bible which has the phrase "Christ in you", which is Colossians 1:27. That's what I quoted in full, and I pointed out what the difference was (God -> glory).

As you misquoted it I guessed that you might not have understood what the verse meant, so I then quoted a couple of other verse to help explain it. You're welcome.

We both quoted the same verse, me for one reason, you for another--neither of which was amiss. You were wrong about that. You simply weren't tracking with the point I was making, apparently because you came in the middle of the discussion without knowing all that had been said.

 

[keithr]

We both quoted the same verse, me for one reason, you for another--neither of which was amiss.

You misquoted the verse, changing what all English translations say, which is "the hope of glory". You wrote "the hope of God", which is incorrect - I could not find a single translation which translates it that way. A quote should be an exact quote; deliberately modifying the Scriptures, especially without mentioning that you've modified it, is deception. I thought you had mis-remembered, but now I'm beginning to think that you deliberately changed the quote.

You were wrong about that.

Nope. Your quote was amiss - it was clearly wrong!

 

[ScottA]

You misquoted the verse, changing what all English translations say, which is "the hope of glory". You wrote "the hope of God", which is incorrect - I could not find a single translation which translates it that way. A quote should be an exact quote; deliberately modifying the Scriptures, especially without mentioning that you've modified it, is deception. I thought you had mis-remembered, but now I'm beginning to think that you deliberately changed the quote.


Nope. Your quote was amiss - it was clearly wrong!

My apologies...just a typo.

 

[GodsGrace]

You've been given the explanation many times, but you dont want to accept it, I do understand, no one changes their mind about anything on these websites

I accept the explanation of no one.
Because you explain something does not make it correct.

You posted scripture stating that the Holy Spirit is a uniting force between the Father and Son.
It does NOT state that in the scripture you posted.

UNLESS you can show where it states that the Holy Spirit is a uniting force between the Father and Son...
it will not be accepted.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is the expression of love between Father and Son.
Perhaps you were agreeing to this?

 

[BreadOfLife]

In English, it is faith alone, since only those who have deeds have faith, but the Latin fide is not defined this way. Trust which is not the equivalent of obedience and is what fide is. Now since faith is on every federal reserve note, you must admit that obedience is its new definition unlike pistis and fide. If Catholics had a point, you would fix the translation of monos and pistis.

Actually, only those who have faith have deeds that matter. You can have ALL of the deeds int he world, but they mean nothing without faith in Christ.

Even the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are many.

Yes - but we're not really talking about doctrinal issues here. It's more about leadership.
John Paul the Great referred to Latin rite and the Orthodox and Eastern rites as the "Left and Right Lungs of the Church".

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pistis has no implication of obedience in Greek. The Demons trust HIM to be and are afraid. You can't have it both ways.

No – rather the demons have an intellectual faith – not a REAL faith.
Christian faith has an element of HOPE, as Paul states in Heb. 11:1. The demons have NO hope. Paulo also states that (Christian) faith without love is worthless. James makes it clear that faith APART from works is dead (James 2:26).

The same word (pistis) is used – but to different ends . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, I understand your sentiments...but your reverence for all that Christ has done is getting the way of "all truth."

Some of your quoted scriptures actually declare that Jesus was born of that sin nature of all men. 2 Corinthians 5:21 for example says that He (God the Father) made Him (Jesus) who know no sin, sin ("to be" is not in the original manuscripts)--He made Hi sin...in other words.

Your verse:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (why must I post your verse??? - many on this forum do this).
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Jesus took the sins of the world UPON HIMSELF when He was on the cross.
There was a moment of separation between Father and Son at that moment...some believe that this is why Jesus felt the Father had abondoned Him - but this cannot be known for certain.

It is NOT because Jesus had any sin.
And to say that Jesus was born with the sin nature is rather blasphemous because God is all good and in Him there is no darkness.

1 John 4:8b
8.....God is love.


1 John 1:5
5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


To take 2 Cor 5:21 and try to use it to make it seem that Jesus had the sin nature when He is God incarnate is rather
alarming.


I'll post some verses again proving that Jesus was pure, holy, and sinless.
2 Cor 5:21 is in the list.
God took Jesus WHO KNEW NO SIN....
the reason He knew no sin is because He lacked the sin nature which is the CAUSE of sin.


Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things like we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 7:26
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;


Hebrews 9:14
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through [a]the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse [b]your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


2 Corinthians 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

But also...after it was written "The first Adam" and "the Last Adam", Jesus clarified this issue, saying, "I am the First and the Last."

What does that mean?
Are you saying Jesus was Adam?

 

[GodsGrace]

"The New Testament writers teachings" are not incorrect or even the issue. The matter is rather one of early interpretation.

In other words, the four Gospels and Revelation were correct in quoting Jesus as saying such things as, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation", and "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place." But by those "false teachers" foretold by Peter, not seeing Jesus "soon" or "quick" return "by observation" began to believe and teach that He would not come until the distant future--which are even now the most popular believes among the church, and are still being taught unto this day.

You said changes have been made to the Christian faith.
I said there were changes ONLY because some were teaching heresy.

If you think there have been other changes, just list some.
In your quotes above:
WHAT did Jesus get wrong in His statements.
You say they were correct, but then go on to say that some things did not happen.
This means Jesus was wrong.

 

[ScottA]

Your verse:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (why must I post your verse??? - many on this forum do this).
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Jesus took the sins of the world UPON HIMSELF when He was on the cross.
There was a moment of separation between Father and Son at that moment...some believe that this is why Jesus felt the Father had abondoned Him - but this cannot be known for certain.

It is NOT because Jesus had any sin.
And to say that Jesus was born with the sin nature is rather blasphemous because God is all good and in Him there is no darkness.

1 John 4:8b
8.....God is love.


1 John 1:5
5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


To take 2 Cor 5:21 and try to use it to make it seem that Jesus had the sin nature when He is God incarnate is rather
alarming.

That is just your interpretation--that is not what it says. In the verse above I have enlarged in red the part that seems to be eluding you. Also, remember that "to be" (in blue) is not in the original manuscripts...indicating that when "He" (God) made Jesus, He made Him sin.

But I will look at the other verses you also sent.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is just your interpretation--that is not what it says. In the verse above I have enlarged in red the part that seems to be eluding you. Also, remember that "to be" (in blue) is not in the original manuscripts..

That makes it better....

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

.indicating that when "He" (God) made Jesus, He made Him sin.

But I will look at the other verses you also sent.

We can't ever depend on only one verse....
it has to fit in/be reconciled to all scripture.

 

[ScottA]

I'll post some verses again proving that Jesus was pure, holy, and sinless.
2 Cor 5:21 is in the list.
God took Jesus WHO KNEW NO SIN....
the reason He knew no sin is because He lacked the sin nature which is the CAUSE of sin.

"Knew" in the scriptures is often--since the beginning (Genesis 4:1)--means went into, or intercourse. So, you can believe that the verse means something else...but as the Last Adam...it is not likely applicable. In which case, the meaning would rather be that Jesus never entered into sin. For which we should indeed give Him reverence. But it does change the meaning of the passage.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things like we are, yet without sin.

Okay, so He was tempted but did not enter into sin.

Hebrews 7:26
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

The context in this verse is the end result as "exalted" (past tense). In other words, the verse is a report of Jesus' successes as born under the condemnation of sin--born of a women--but did not sin, separating Him from every other person born into this world, and was therefore exalted above the heavens.

Hebrews 9:14
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through [a]the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse [b]your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Yes, He didn't sin and therefore was without blemish.

None of the above passages require or prove that Jesus was born without a sin nature( --by definition--as born of a women). But 2 Cor 5:21, quite clearly states that God the Father "made Him...sin."

 

[GodsGrace]

"Knew" in the scriptures is often--since the beginning (Genesis 4:1)--means went into, or intercourse. So, you can believe that the verse means something else...but as the Last Adam...it is not likely applicable. In which case, the meaning would rather be that Jesus never entered into sin. For which we should indeed give Him reverence. But it does change the meaning of the passage.


Okay, so He was tempted but did not enter into sin.


The context in this verse is the end result as "exalted" (past tense). In other words, the verse is a report of Jesus' successes as born under the condemnation of sin--born of a women--but did not sin, separating Him from every other person born into this world, and was therefore exalted above the heavens.


Yes, He didn't sin and therefore was without blemish.

None of the above passages require or prove that Jesus was born without a sin nature( --by definition--as born of a women). But 2 Cor 5:21, quite clearly states that God the Father "made Him...sin."

1. I believe I've already said that the sin of Adam....
was passed on by the male.
I quoted the verse, no more time right now.
Jesus' mother was Mary...
His father was God - the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit will come upon you - Luke 1)

2. If Jesus never sinned...
WHY did He never sin?

What is it that induces man to sin?
Why can we not completely remove sin from our lives?