King Jesus will return at the end of this temporal age and then deliver His kingdom to God the Father

[Button]

If God has to control everything in order to be sovereign, then He has never been sovereign. The correct answer to my question is no. He does not have to control everything to be sovereign. That is the case for Jesus as well.


God allowing things to happen is not a case of Him controlling what happens. He allows people to make choices without dictating everything that happens.


It tells me that since God didn't need to dictate everything that happens in order to be sovereign, that is the case for Jesus as well.

Isaiah 46:10

God controls all things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 46:10

God controls all things.

That's not what that verse means. You are putting the responsibility and blame for all murders, rapes, and every other sin on God instead of on man where it belongs.

 

[Zao is life]

That's not really a valid question to ask me since I likely don't have the same understanding of the beast and the mark of the beast as you do. I believe the mark of the beast has been around a long time and you probably only see it as a future thing.

If you do not believe that the mark of the beast is future, then where do you place:

Rev 15:2 (I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God)

Is the realization of the above future, or ongoing?

Also, how do you relate the above with:

Rev 20:4 (I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years); and

Rev 2:11 (He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death); and

the second death mentioned in Rev 20:6 (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years); and

Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations); and

Rev 3:21 (To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne); and

Rev 20:4 (I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years); and

Rev 21:7 (He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.)?

Are the promises to those who overcome all related to a point in time in terms of when the promises will be realized, do you think? Or are some related to the same point in time, but not all?

Can you explain why you are asking me this question and how it relates to what I said about Jesus delivering the kingdom to the Father at which point eternity will be ushered in?

I'm asking you the question because the question relates to eternity and when eternity will be ushered in.

When do you believe the promises to those who overcome (Rev 2:7, 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21 and 21:7) will be realized?

Do you see them all as future promises to those who overcome which will be realized when what scripture and the Revelation calls the ages of the ages (a.k.a eternity in English) will be ushered in , or do you see some as future promises, but not all?

Or none as future promises?

 

[Button]

That's not what that verse means. You are putting the responsibility and blame for all murders, rapes, and every other sin on God instead of on man where it belongs.

Can man do anything God does not know about beforehand?

Why is mankind fallen?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you do not believe that the mark of the beast is future, then where do you place:

Ugh. I didn't say that I don't believe the mark of the beast is future. I'm saying I don't believe it is only related to the future, as you probably believe. Notice I said "probably". Is that what you believe?

Rev 15:2 (I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God)?

Also, how do you relate the above with:

Rev 2:11 (He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death); and

the second death mentioned in Rev 20:6 (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years); and

Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations); and

Rev 3:21 (To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne); and

Rev 20:4 (I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years); and

Rev 21:7 (He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.)?

Are the promises to those who overcome all related, do you think? Or are some related, but not all?

No, they are not all directly related. Some promises are already realized. For example, it's already true that those who have overcome will not be hurt of the second death. That's already a guarantee for them. And they are already sitting with Jesus in His throne in heaven (their souls). They don't have to wait for some time in the future before that can be said about them. But, Revelation 21:7 is not yet fulfilled. That will be fulfilled when the one who has overcome inherits the new heavens and new earth at Christ's return.

I'm asking you the question because the question relates to eternity and when eternity will be ushered in.

Eternity will be ushered in when Jesus returns and the mortal things like death, crying, sorrow and pain are no more (Rev 21:4) and the eternal new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

When do you believe the promises to those who overcome (Rev 2:7, 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21 and 21:7) will be realized?

Some are already realized and some will be realized when Jesus returns. It's the case now that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Him in heaven. They do not have to wait to reign with Him. But, they have not yet inherited eternal life in the new heavens and new earth with their immortal bodies.

Do you see them all as future promises to those who overcome which will be realized when what scripture and the Revelation calls the ages of the ages (a.k.a eternity in English) will be ushered in , or do you see some as future promises, but not all?

Already answered. See above.

Or none as future promises?

I'm not a full preterist, so I certainly believe in future promises being fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can man do anything God does not know about beforehand?

God knowing things beforehand is not the same as God determining what will happen beforehand.

Why is mankind fallen?

Because Adam and Eve chose to sin against God and everyone has been born with a natural tendency to sin (sinful nature) since then. People need to choose whether to give in to that natural tendency or repent of their sins and submit their lives to God and allow Him to help them overcome sin by way of His Holy Spirit.

 

[Marilyn C]

Premillennialists claim that Jesus will begin to reign after He returns, but scripture teaches that He has been reigning over all things in heaven and earth since His resurrection.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Notice in Ephesians 1:20-21 that it says He has been reigning "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.". Revelation 1:5 says that He is now "the ruler over the kings of the earth". So, He has been reigning during this temporal age and will continue to reign at the Father's side in the eternal age to come as well. We know that the age to come is eternal because Jesus said in this age people get married and in the age to come people will no longer get married and will no longer die (Luke 20:34-36).

So, Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords NOW and will continue to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords until His return, at which point He will then deliver the kingdom to God the Father and then even He will be subject to the Father (but no one else) at that point.

When does Jesus reign.



1. What Jesus is given - all Authority. Matt. 28: 16 Eph. 1: 19 – 23 Rev. 1: 5 Agree.

However, does being given all authority mean that Jesus has taken that authority and started to reign? We need scriptures to show when He is ruling and reigning.



2. Where Jesus is - at the right hand of the Father. Heb. 1: 3 Ps, 110: 1



3. Why Jesus with all authority is He not exercising that yet – He is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary for His Body and waiting for the Father to bring His enemies to be His footstool.

`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord, (Jesus), “Sit at my right hand till make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)

`Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: we have such a High priest who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

`…in the midst of the golden lampstands one like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band…` (Rev. 1: 13)

This is a picture of our heavenly High Priest who is tending to the light, the witness of Him in the churches down through the ages.



4. When Jesus starts to rule and reign – from His own Throne pre-trib.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)

 

[Marilyn C]

Premils have Jesus not even beginning to reign until He returns and then delivering the kingdom to the Father 1,000+ years later. That contradicts the following passage...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Notice that Paul said that the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, occurs at Christ's second coming, not a long time (1,000+ years) later.

This lines up with what Jesus taught here...

Matthew 13:40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matthew 24:3) and He said here in this passage above that at that time "then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". Notice He calls it "the kingdom of their Father". That is because He will have delivered His kingdom to the Father at that point. This supports amillennialism and refutes premillennialism which claims that He will deliver His kingdom to the Father 1,000+ years after Christ returns.

Premils. have Jesus ruling through the trib, and in the Millennium. Not as you say at the end of the millennium.

1 Cor. 15: 22 point out that `comes the end,` refers in the GK. to a setting out to a goal. For Jesus to put down `all rule, authority and power,` that is over a period of time.

In the Tribulation.

`Why do the nations rage and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us.` (Ps. 2: 1 – 3)

`Great and marvellous are your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations! Who shall not fear you, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before you, for your judgments have been manifested.` (Rev. 15: 3 & 4)


In the Millennium.

`Now it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

And it shall come to pass that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` `(Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us of His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.” (Micah 4: 1 & 2)

`Year to year,` and `teach and walk` all are over a period of time.



End of this Age. Matt. 13: 40 Matt. 24: 3

This is at the end of all the putting down of `all rule, authority and power, `which God`s word shows is over a period of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When does Jesus reign.



1. What Jesus is given - all Authority. Matt. 28: 16 Eph. 1: 19 – 23 Rev. 1: 5 Agree.

However, does being given all authority mean that Jesus has taken that authority and started to reign?

Of course it does. He wasn't given all authority only to just sit there in heaven doing nothing for thousands of years before being allowed to exercise it.

We need scriptures to show when He is ruling and reigning.

Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23 are two scriptures which show that, but you are trying to get around them.

2. Where Jesus is - at the right hand of the Father. Heb. 1: 3 Ps, 110: 1

But, the Spirit of Christ is in all believers and He works through us to bring the hope of the gospel to the world.

3. Why Jesus with all authority is He not exercising that yet

What do you mean He is not exercising that yet? What do you base that claim on?

Do you think that God has never ruled over reigned over the earth after He created it? Or do you understand that He ruled and reigned over the earth after creating it? For Jesus to be reigning does not require that He constantly dictate what happens on the earth

– He is ministering in the heavenly sanctuary for His Body and waiting for the Father to bring His enemies to be His footstool.

`The LORD (Father) said to my Lord, (Jesus), “Sit at my right hand till make your enemies your footstool.` (Ps. 110: 1)

That is related to all enemies, including the last enemy, death, being destroyed. That has nothing to do with the time when Jesus begins to reign. That has to do with when Jesus will deliver the kingdom He has been reigning over since His resurrection to God the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Notice here that He must reign until all enemies, including the last enemy, death, have been put under His feet. You have Him only starting to reign at that point, but scripture says He must reign until that time, at which point He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father and be subject to God the Father.

4. When Jesus starts to rule and reign – from His own Throne pre-trib.

`We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.` (Rev. 11: 17)

That is a reference to God the Father. Scripture teaches that Jesus will deliver His kingdom to God the Father when He returns (1 Corinthians 15:22-24).

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The [f]kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was [g]and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

Notice in Revelation 11:15 that it's talking about the time when "our Lord" and "His Christ" begin to reign together. So, "our Lord" refers to God the Father in contrast to "His Christ", which obviously refers to Jesus. Jesus reigns until the point when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father at which point He is subject to the Father and they then reign together for eternity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Premils. have Jesus ruling through the trib

Maybe pretribs do, but not post-trib premils.

, and in the Millennium. Not as you say at the end of the millennium.

That's not what I said. Try to read what is said more carefully.

I said "Premils have Jesus not even beginning to reign until He returns and then delivering the kingdom to the Father 1,000+ years later.

I said Premils have Jesus ruling starting when He returns, which is when they believe the millennium begins. I didn't say "at the end of the millennium".

1 Cor. 15: 22 point out that `comes the end,` refers in the GK. to a setting out to a goal. For Jesus to put down `all rule, authority and power,` that is over a period of time.

You are twisting the text to fit your doctrine. At His return, He will be putting down all rule, authority and power when He takes vengeance on all unbelievers.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

If the above isn't a description of Jesus putting down all rule, authority and power, I don't know what is. It will happen quickly on the day He returns.

In the Millennium.

`Now it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

And it shall come to pass that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` `(Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

`Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us of His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.” (Micah 4: 1 & 2)

`Year to year,` and `teach and walk` all are over a period of time.

Your literal interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-17 blatantly contradicts the scriptures like Hebrews 8-10 which tell us that Jesus made animal sacrifices obsolete already long ago. Keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices. And it contradicts John 4:19-24 which tells us that God made it so that people need to worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are instead of requiring them to go to Jerusalem to worship Him.

End of this Age. Matt. 13: 40 Matt. 24: 3

This is at the end of all the putting down of `all rule, authority and power, `which God`s word shows is over a period of time.

No, it does not. It shows it will happen on the day Christ returns.

 

[Triumph1300]

To clarify, there is only one Holy Spirit. Now, we are talking about names, and you just made my point. All in the New Testament are those names. Even Holy Ghost is a New Testament name.

What ever you call it, it's all the same Spirit.

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament is much like His role in the New Testament.

When speaking of the role of the Holy Spirit, we can discern four general areas in which the Holy Spirit works:
1) regeneration,
2) indwelling (or filling),
3) restraint,
and 4) empowerment for service.

Evidence of these areas of the Holy Spirit’s work is just as present in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament.

 

[Zao is life]

Ugh. I didn't say that I don't believe the mark of the beast is future. I'm saying I don't believe it is only related to the future

According to what is written the mark of the beast is linked to the beast that has ascended from the abyss (not before then). Do you believe that the beast has already ascended from the abyss?

Is that what you believe?

It is written that the beast shall ascend from the abyss, so of course I do. I don't have a need to adjust the mark of the beast to a time before and after the beast has ascended from the abyss - as you imply above you do.

I don't need to have the beast (the only beast mentioned as ascending from the abyss in scripture) ascending from the abyss before scripture says he will - as you have to do in order to be able to say "it (the mark of the beast) isn't related only to the future".

So I can easily see how both Rev 15:2 and Rev 20:4 are related to a time following the ascension of the beast from the abyss, and of the mark of the beast - because I don't need to adjust the meaning of what is written in the Revelation as you do:

Revelation chapters 4 & 15

*Four beasts mentioned in both passages.
* Sea of glass mentioned in both passages.
* Twenty four elders clothed in white raiment / crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).

* Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

* The same ones are seen alive [zao] and reigning with Christ in Revelation 20:4-6, where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

Eternity will be ushered in when Jesus returns and the mortal things like death, crying, sorrow and pain are no more (Rev 21:4) and the eternal new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

I agree. It shows how the last three chapters of the Bible are a reflection of the first three chapters.

First three chapters: Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Last three chapters: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

First three chapters: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Last three chapters: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

First three chapters: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Last three chapters: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

First three chapters: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Last three chapters: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Revelation 3:21).

First three chapters: Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Last three chapters: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

First three chapters: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Last three chapters: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

First three chapters: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Last three chapters: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

First three chapters: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Last three chapters: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Revelation 3:21).

First three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis] and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---

Last three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve failed the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:7-10).

I don't need to adjust scripture - which teaches me that God gives the creature the breath of life;

and in Christ God gives fallen humans everlasting life; and through His bodily resurrection and the immortality He possesses, we will be raised from the dead and be immortal.

I also don't need to adjust scripture to believe what is written about the God who created all things being able to destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire - even if it's an immortal body

- because it is written that only Christ possesses immortality and eternal life in Himself. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26)

- but unlike the Son of God / Son of man, the creature does not possess in ourselves the eternal life given to the creature in Christ (1 John 5:11-12), and it is written that Jesus said that the creature should fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire.

 

[Rockerduck]

What ever you call it, it's all the same Spirit.

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament is much like His role in the New Testament.

When speaking of the role of the Holy Spirit, we can discern four general areas in which the Holy Spirit works:
1) regeneration,
2) indwelling (or filling),
3) restraint,
and 4) empowerment for service.

Evidence of these areas of the Holy Spirit’s work is just as present in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament.

Didn't I say that?

 

[Triumph1300]

Didn't I say that?

No you didn't.
You put a different HS in the NT compared to the OT.

 

[Rockerduck]

No you didn't.
You put a different HS in the NT compared to the OT.

I said "To clarify, there is only one Holy Spirit." You can't understand that?

 

[Triumph1300]

said "To clarify, there is only one Holy Spirit

Yes, you backtracked on your earlier statement.
That's good.
Glad you did.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to what is written the mark of the beast is linked to the beast that has ascended from the abyss (not before then).

I disagree. I see the mark of the beast as being the spiritual opposite of the seal of God, so it's been around for a long time.

Do you believe that the beast has already ascended from the abyss?

Very possibly, but there isn't any specific event we can point to which tells us that. I see the beast ascended from the abyss at the same time as Satan. They work hand in hand (Rev 13:4). If the beast is in the abyss, then so is Satan. I believe a time of significantly increased deception, apostasy, wickedness and persecution marks Satan's little season after he and his beast ascend from the abyss, so I see passages like Matthew 24:10-13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 as being related to that time period. It definitely seems like we could be in that time period now.

It is written that the beast shall ascend from the abyss, so of course I do. I don't have a need to adjust the mark of the beast to a time before and after the beast has ascended from the abyss - as you imply above you do.

It's not an adjustment. You just assume that the mark of the beast only applies after the beast ascends from the abyss. You think the beast being in the abyss renders the beast to be completely incapacitated, which is the same way you understand Satan's binding in the abyss. I disagree with that understanding, as you already know.

I don't need to have the beast (the only beast mentioned as ascending from the abyss in scripture) ascending from the abyss before scripture says he will

Neither do I. You're wasting your time with a strawman argument here.

- as you have to do in order to be able to say "it (the mark of the beast) isn't related only to the future".

Wrong. You are saying this because of your assumption of what being in the abyss means, which I am not obligated to agree with. As long as we disagree on that being in the abyss entails, we are going to be far apart on this topic. I'm not going to waste any more time on it with you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I said "To clarify, there is only one Holy Spirit." You can't understand that?

But, most of your comments made it seem like you believed that the Spirit of Christ wasn't around in OT times and has only been around in NT times. But, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same Spirit. So, you do understand that?

 

[Marilyn C]

Of course it does. He wasn't given all authority only to just sit there in heaven doing nothing for thousands of years before being allowed to exercise it.

Heb. 6: 20 8: 1 7 2 & Rev. 1-3 show that Jesus the Kingpriest is operating in His High Priestly role. Heb. 10: 13 & 14 tell us that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father WAITING till His enemies are made His footstool. And that has not happened yet.

Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23 are two scriptures which show that, but you are trying to get around them.

Matt. 28: 18 `all authority` & Eph. 1: 19 - 23 `above all...` reveal what authority and where he has been placed. it does not give any indication of Jesus exercising His kingship.

But, the Spirit of Christ is in all believers and He works through us to bring the hope of the gospel to the world.

Yes, operating as High Priest.

What do you mean He is not exercising that yet? What do you base that claim on?

Do you think that God has never ruled over reigned over the earth after He created it? Or do you understand that He ruled and reigned over the earth after creating it? For Jesus to be reigning does not require that He constantly dictate what happens on the earth

Yes the Godhead ruled over the earth and heavens that they created. However, the glorified son of God, (the second being of the Trinity as a man) has NOT started to exercise His authority as King, given of the Father as yet. He is waiting at the Father`s right hand till His enemies are made His footstool and then He will begin the rule over them.

`The LORD (Father said to my Lord (Jesus, "Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool. The LORD (Father)shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)

`Why do the nations rage, and the people`s plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and His Anointed, saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us."

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the LORD shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath and distress them in His deep displeasure: "Yet I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion." (Ps. 2: 1 - 6)

And the timing is when the nations are gathered together against the LORD and Jesus. Then the Father sets Jesus on Mount Zion for Him to operate in His kingship. This we read of in Rev. 4 where the throne is setup by the Father. it is a throne of judgment. (Rev. 4: 5) with the details of that judgment shown in the scroll. (Rev. 6 & 7)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Heb. 6: 20 8: 1 7 2 & Rev. 1-3 show that Jesus the Kingpriest is operating in His High Priestly role. Heb. 10: 13 & 14 tell us that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father WAITING till His enemies are made His footstool. And that has not happened yet.

He's not just up there doing nothing until that happens! Doe the Spirit of Christ dwell inside of you? If so, He is doing nothing through you? As I told you before, and as you apparently ignored, once all of His enemies are made His footstool, that is when He will deliver the kingdom He has been reigning ever since His resurrection to God the Father. Read the following scripture carefully...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Would you agree that His enemies will be made His footstool at the point when all of His enemies are under His feet, including the last enemy, death? When will that happen? According to Paul, it will be at His second coming. Paul taught that Jesus must reign until all of His enemies, including the last enemy, death, are under His feet. That means He must reign until His enemies are made His footstool. You contradict that by thinking that He doesn't even begin reigning until His enemies have been made His footstool. Paul taught otherwise, so learn from Paul.

Matt. 28: 18 `all authority` & Eph. 1: 19 - 23 `above all...` reveal what authority and where he has been placed. it does not give any indication of Jesus exercising His kingship.

Does He not exercise any kingship through you? Is He not your King? Do you not serve Him in His kingdom?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Yes, operating as High Priest.

Yes the Godhead ruled over the earth and heavens that they created. However, the glorified son of God, (the second being of the Trinity as a man) has NOT started to exercise His authority as King, given of the Father as yet. He is waiting at the Father`s right hand till His enemies are made His footstool and then He will begin the rule over them.

Nope. Again, read 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Paul taught that He must reign until His enemies are all under His feet and made His footstool. In contrast to that, you have Him only beginning to reign at that point. So, you are clearly mistaken.