Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Lizbeth]

Exactly. His unwillingness to answer makes it seem like he has something to hide for some reason.


Agree. I started a thread about this topic and would appreciate if you shared your perspective there. Here is the link: This is what Jesus meant when He said "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36)

I created the thread because I have noticed some people on this forum, including @David in NJ , who seem to not understand the meaning of John 18:36.

Many over-simplify scriptures and take them too literally and superficially, like reading a newspaper or textbook. But God's words and His way of communicating is not like that.....they are SPIRIT and life, and He often speaks to us in parables/allegories, if not always. His word is the sword of the SPIRIT. So we need to be looking a little deeper/higher than just the surface that our natural eyes are seeing.

 

[David in NJ]

Some real simple wisdom that Jesus gave is that His kingdom is not of this world that we may say here it is, or there, but is within/among us. A correct understanding of the reign of Christ will not contradict that.

Do you have an answer for the question I asked you yesterday brother?

Good Morning,

Been busy with the new puppy = will take a look at your question - Thank You

With thanks to @Zao is life and yourself we settled on 'Kyrah Zoe Sweet Pea' as her full name

I found this out AFTER naming her Kyrah = ​

This name came to me as we were driving down to pick her up = without seeing her!!!​

​

Meanings and Origins of the name Kira​

The name Kira has rich and diverse origins. It holds significance in multiple languages and cultures, each adding unique flavors to its essence. In Japanese, Kira means "glitter" or "sparkle," conveying brilliance and vitality. This can symbolize a pet's shining personality and the joy they bring into their owner's lives.


In Persian, Kira means "sun," reflecting a radiant and illuminating presence. This may signify a pet's role as a beacon of happiness and warmth in a household. Meanwhile, in Russian, Kira is derived from the name Kyra, meaning "leader" or "lady." This gives a majestic and authoritative touch to the pet's persona, potentially marking them as influential members of their pack.

The rich tapestry of meanings and origins for the name Kira ensures that it carries an elegant, timeless charm regardless of the cultural context. Whether one interprets it through the lens of brilliance, warmth, or leadership, Kira is a name imbued with positive and powerful attributes.

 

[David in NJ]

Some real simple wisdom that Jesus gave is that His kingdom is not of this world that we may say here it is, or there, but is within/among us. A correct understanding of the reign of Christ will not contradict that.

Do you have an answer for the question I asked you yesterday brother?

Please repeat the question as i want to make 100% certain - ty

 

[Hillsage]

I'm not saying to remove Revelation. Just that we need to first grasp the earlier scriptures to be able to start seeing Revelation in light of them. Having a preconceived wrong understanding of certain things in Rev causes us to start trying to force earlier scrips to fit our preconception. Put aside Rev long enough to let the earlier scrips just say what they are saying in themselves.

Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Why God would have us looking for and hasting unto a day that is a thousand years after we have already gone to be with the Lord? And why He would admonish us to take care what manner of persons we ought to be when we have already gone to our reward and are with the Lord those thousand years? It is for this life now that we are looking for and hasting the day Christ returns that we may go to be with Him.....and knowing that this world is going up in smoke when He returns what manner of persons ought we to be......looking for a new home that is heavenly. The way you and other interpret that verse about the day of God in 2 Peter 3 doesn't hold water. It is an example of trying to make that verse fit a preconceived idea about something in Rev instead of just letting it say what it is saying.

You have said a number of intriguing things since I've recently returned to the forum (I'm older than you. ) You are making me wonder just exactly what 'general' category you would say you fall in to, concerning 'how to interpret the book of "The Revelation". I have a Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible. In the forward to the book of "The Revelation" he shares a brief summation for what he says are "four views of interpreting Revelation." Those 4 are; The preterist, the historicist, the symbolic and the futuristic. Would you say you fall into one of those categories? If not, could you elaborate a bit?

 

[Lizbeth]

You have said a number of intriguing things since I've recently returned to the forum (I'm older than you. ) You are making me wonder just exactly what 'general' category you would say you fall in to, concerning 'how to interpret the book of "The Revelation". I have a Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible. In the forward to the book of "The Revelation" he shares a brief summation for what he says are "four views of interpreting Revelation." Those 4 are; The preterist, the historicist, the symbolic and the futuristic. Would you say you fall into one of those categories? If not, could you elaborate a bit?

Like a fine aged wine I'm sure, lol.

Well I'm squarely in the "work-in- progress" camp actually, lol. I can't parse/rightly divide a lot of Revelation yet, it boggles my mind, but once in a while it seems the Lord gives me a little piece of the puzzle, subject to testing. I suspect we need to look at Rev a lot more allegorically than we have been generally. And I think I would be considered a partial preterist........things that were said by Jesus and in Revelation might have dual fulfillments.......to the Jew first in the first century, and then the Gentile in this age, is how I'm looking at it. Kind of overlapping dual prophecies at it were.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't believe; ""Protevangelium," the first gospel."" (quoting you above), was the first gospel in Gen 3:15. It was the CURSE for breaking the 'first covenant' of 'don't eat of the tree of good and evil'. They Adam/Eve both did eat, and they both lost immortality. IOW they both were going to "surely die" BECAUSE they were kicked OUT of the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life and they were going to die in the flesh, as a consequence.

Yes, there was more in store for all of humanity which was created BEFORE Adam was removed from WEST EDEN by God. The same God who placed the 'spirit of Christ' in Adam ONLY and not the rest of the Pre Adamic race ("host") which were created in Gen 2:1.

"host" = SRN 6635 tsaba': a mass of persons (or fig. things),espec. reg. organized for war (an army); by impl. a campaign, lit. or fig. (spec. hardship, worship).

The first 'son of God' was "formed" by God out of that 'mass of persons' Gen 2:7. And God put a christos/anointed spirit into Adam making him the FIRST 'son of God' (not born of a woman Luke 3:38). God THEN went farther EAST in Eden and planted a garden Gen 2:8. Then God went back and got ADAM out of the pre Adamic race "host" and put him in the "Garden.." which was farther "..eastward in Eden" Gen 2:8.

This is already plenty to deal with, if you've never heard or studied it before.

Pre-Adamic race---LOL. Whatever studies you did, you obviously didn't take the time to employ any critical thinking first, though.

Let's assume Genesis 1:26-28 is meaning this pre-adamic race that precedes the account of the formation of man in Genesis 2. We'll call this account, A).

Then let's assume Genesis 2:7, 21-25 is meaning this Adamic race that is formed later. We will call this account, B).

The first thing to note is that nowhere per A) does it ever say anyone is formed from the dust of the earth. Nor does it say that anyone was ever made a living soul. Likewise, per B) nowhere does it say that anyone was ever created in the image of God. These are relevant points to factor in, as I will demonstrate here shortly.

But let's start with A)---male and female created he them. The first question that must be asked---is a female human and a woman the same thing? Why this matters is simple---she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Can't apply that to A) if A) is meaning before B) rather than equals B). Imagine that. There were already female humans before Eve was formed, except none of them were women. What were they then, if not women?

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Can't include anyone from A) since none of them were ever formed from the dust of the earth. It only says that of the man formed per B). Imagine that. When these of this alleged pre-Adamic race pass away, none of them ever go into one place, because none of them are of the dust, thus none of them turn to dust again. I guess 'all' per that verse doesn't literally mean 'all'. It means only some.

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


This is not applicable to the man formed per B) since it never says that man was created in the image of God. Therefore, only the pre-Adamic race per A) is meant here. But the funny thing about it though, Noah clearly descended from the man formed per B).

And finally, the fact you argue that the host of them is only meaning the pre-Adamic race created per A), we are then to believe that 'hosts' can only mean humans in vast numbers?

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;


We are to believe that vast numbers of humans are meant by the host of heaven in these 2 accounts?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you call my question 'stupid'

It was very stupid. Asking if I can't take Jesus seriously? Imagine someone asking you that question.

 

[Hillsage]

Like a fine aged wine I'm sure, lol.

I'm so old that a lot of "Brethren" here consider me as pretty sour wine...theologically. But that's OK, and it really kind of fits biblically, when they also want to crucify me; and according to the NKJV Jesus got "sour wine" on the cross.

Well I'm squarely in the "work-in- progress" camp actually, lol. I can't parse/rightly divide a lot of Revelation yet, it boggles my mind, but once in a while it seems the Lord gives me a little piece of the puzzle, subject to testing. I suspect we need to look at Rev a lot more allegorically than we have been generally.

I held a view from the early 70's that I never hear anyone allude to. I underwent a major change in the 80's. Then, the same teacher began an in depth study of the book, which started in 2001 and lasted 20 years. I got 12 pages in the mail every month. At 10 years in, I was beginning to think Jesus would return when he finished. His 'take' is that the book is the most 'spiritually symbolic' written book in the bible, and to understand it , you are going to have to be 'in the spirit' to the same degree John was when he received it. He starts with the etymology of the word in the Greek for REVELATION.

SRN 602 apokalupsis; ap-ok-al'-oop-sis...derived from SRN 601 apokaluptō;....derived from SRN 575 and 2572 which is defined as; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

He then unpacks how it is more of a book about how Jesus attained spiritual perfection as an example for us to follow;

EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It's the same spiritual REVELATION process which Paul speaks of concerning his/our walks upon aaa.

GAL 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation/apokalupsis of Jesus Christ.

And I think I would be considered a partial preterist........things that were said by Jesus and in Revelation might have dual fulfillments.......to the Jew first in the first century, and then the Gentile in this age, is how I'm looking at it. Kind of overlapping dual prophecies at it were.

I was in a small weekly study group which was led by two 100% preterists, for 5 years. I agree with you in that I see 'some' truth in their view, but never could claim that only. We still fellowship....and just smile at each other a lot of the time. I went through the Futurist bent when I used to believe in the rapture. But that doctrine got dropped long ago too.

Going to stop. Wife said we're going to lunch, haircut, exercise.

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm so old that a lot of "Brethren" here consider me as pretty sour wine...theologically. But that's OK, and it really kind of fits biblically, when they also want to crucify me; and according to the NKJV Jesus got "sour wine" on the cross.

I held a view from the early 70's that I never hear anyone allude to. I underwent a major change in the 80's. Then, the same teacher began an in depth study of the book, which started in 2001 and lasted 20 years. I got 12 pages in the mail every month. At 10 years in, I was beginning to think Jesus would return when he finished. His 'take' is that the book is the most 'spiritually symbolic' written book in the bible, and to understand it , you are going to have to be 'in the spirit' to the same degree John was when he received it. He starts with the etymology of the word in the Greek for REVELATION.

SRN 602 apokalupsis; ap-ok-al'-oop-sis...derived from SRN 601 apokaluptō;....derived from SRN 575 and 2572 which is defined as; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

He then unpacks how it is more of a book about how Jesus attained spiritual perfection as an example for us to follow;

EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It's the same spiritual REVELATION process which Paul speaks of concerning his/our walks upon aaa.

GAL 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation/apokalupsis of Jesus Christ.



I was in a small weekly study group which was led by two 100% preterists, for 5 years. I agree with you in that I see 'some' truth in their view, but never could claim that only. We still fellowship....and just smile at each other a lot of the time. I went through the Futurist bent when I used to believe in the rapture. But that doctrine got dropped long ago too.

Going to stop. Wife said we're going to lunch, haircut, exercise.

LOL! :) Hope they respect their elders where you are!

Yes, glad you mentioned that....I've heard some talk about a personal application of Revelation too, and that seems like a possibility, although I myself am not seeing/understanding it up to now. And maybe there is more than one "level" to what it is saying. I don't doubt there is an aspect of "spiritual warfare" to it....."war in heaven"...which could be in a general sense and/or on an individual level....?

Just had a thought....always thought the letters to the seven churches seemed kind of disconnected from the rest of the book...like they are a separate subject and don't belong with the rest of it. But what if they are connected to the seven trumpets, seven vials, seven bowls...?

Have a good afternoon with your various errands.

 

[Zao is life]

Good Morning,

Been busy with the new puppy = will take a look at your question - Thank You

With thanks to @Zao is life and yourself we settled on 'Kyrah Zoe Sweet Pea' as her full name

I found this out AFTER naming her Kyrah = ​

This name came to me as we were driving down to pick her up = without seeing her!!!​

​

Meanings and Origins of the name Kira​

The name Kira has rich and diverse origins. It holds significance in multiple languages and cultures, each adding unique flavors to its essence. In Japanese, Kira means "glitter" or "sparkle," conveying brilliance and vitality. This can symbolize a pet's shining personality and the joy they bring into their owner's lives.


In Persian, Kira means "sun," reflecting a radiant and illuminating presence. This may signify a pet's role as a beacon of happiness and warmth in a household. Meanwhile, in Russian, Kira is derived from the name Kyra, meaning "leader" or "lady." This gives a majestic and authoritative touch to the pet's persona, potentially marking them as influential members of their pack.

The rich tapestry of meanings and origins for the name Kira ensures that it carries an elegant, timeless charm regardless of the cultural context. Whether one interprets it through the lens of brilliance, warmth, or leadership, Kira is a name imbued with positive and powerful attributes.

Pets always bring a smile to everyone's faces - owner family and friends, and even strangers in the parks and public spaces.

I wonder what name means "gift from God"?

 

[David in NJ]

Pets always bring a smile to everyone's faces - owner family and friends, and even strangers in the parks and public spaces.

I wonder what name means "gift from God"?

You can search on KingPet: Dog and Cat Photo Contest

 

[amigo de christo]

Pets always bring a smile to everyone's faces - owner family and friends, and even strangers in the parks and public spaces.

I wonder what name means "gift from God"?

same name
as FOR GOD so loved the world that HE sent His only begotten Son
so that all who do believe IN HIM should NOT perish but have everlasting life .
It is the GIFT OF GOD , ye are saved by grace and not that of yourselves .
TO THE LORD be the GLORY , to the LORD be all the praise with thunderous sounds of thanksgivings .

 

[David in NJ]

Pets always bring a smile to everyone's faces - owner family and friends, and even strangers in the parks and public spaces.

I wonder what name means "gift from God"?

Here is the list and you will find this very interesting.

25 Dog Names That Mean Gods Gift in Various Origins | iDogNames

If your dog feels like a true blessing, a name meaning God's gift captures that bond beautifully. This tip gathers male and female picks from various culture...

idognames.com

 

[Hillsage]

LOL! :) Hope they respect their elders where you are!

Actually, the last "church" we went to fired my brother a year and a half ago, after being an 'elder' for 20 years. Long story, I won't go in to. Just saying my wife and I went to that church for 30 years; starting with the founding pastor. We quit for 8. Felt led to come back. We did and lasted 5 more and left last year when they fired him. But I always tell people you don't quit because you're MAD, you quit because you are LED (by the holy spirit of chris IN you). A month after they left God said "This church is no long healthy for you....physically and spiritually.

Yes, glad you mentioned that....I've heard some talk about a personal application of Revelation too, and that seems like a possibility, although I myself am not seeing/understanding it up to now. And maybe there is more than one "level" to what it is saying.

Have discipled many for years with this word; "Don't ever put a roof on where you are at spiritually." I almost missed the baptism FROM the Holy Spirit of God, and a personal prayer language from the holy spirit of Christ in me. IOW, yes I'm a Crazimatic. Hope 'we' are OK there. If not, please don't turn your 'staff of life' into a 'club of death' on me.

I don't doubt there is an aspect of "spiritual warfare" to it....."war in heaven"...which could be in a general sense and/or on an individual level....?

Just had a thought....always thought the letters to the seven churches seemed kind of disconnected from the rest of the book...like they are a separate subject and don't belong with the rest of it. But what if they are connected to the seven trumpets, seven vials, seven bowls...?

Have a good afternoon with your various errands.

Your 'thoughts' above ring soundly from my first 'theo-ilogical' POV on 'the REVELATION. Mostly forgotten now with beginning dementia now.

But the seal and trumpets in chap 6-11 have a connection with the angels and the vials of chap 14-16. One is a heavenly view of what's happening in the earthly realm and the latter chapters speak from the earthly view as to what's happening in the heavenly realm.

My present view is that of Chapter 1-12 is God's work in the elect but 12 on is God's work in the nations.

Checking out again. Supper with friends in 20 min and a bible study group at 6:30,

 

[Lizbeth]

Actually, the last "church" we went to fired my brother a year and a half ago, after being an 'elder' for 20 years. Long story, I won't go in to. Just saying my wife and I went to that church for 30 years; starting with the founding pastor. We quit for 8. Felt led to come back. We did and lasted 5 more and left last year when they fired him. But I always tell people you don't quit because you're MAD, you quit because you are LED (by the holy spirit of chris IN you). A month after they left God said "This church is no long healthy for you....physically and spiritually.

Have discipled many for years with this word; "Don't ever put a roof on where you are at spiritually." I almost missed the baptism FROM the Holy Spirit of God, and a personal prayer language from the holy spirit of Christ in me. IOW, yes I'm a Crazimatic. Hope 'we' are OK there. If not, please don't turn your 'staff of life' into a 'club of death' on me.



Your 'thoughts' above ring soundly from my first 'theo-ilogical' POV on 'the REVELATION. Mostly forgotten now with beginning dementia now.

But the seal and trumpets in chap 6-11 have a connection with the angels and the vials of chap 14-16. One is a heavenly view of what's happening in the earthly realm and the latter chapters speak from the earthly view as to what's happening in the heavenly realm.

My present view is that of Chapter 1-12 is God's work in the elect but 12 on is God's work in the nations.

Checking out again. Supper with friends in 20 min and a bible study group at 6:30,

Amen, the Lord in His mercy has led me out of a couple of situations too when they became spiritually unhealthy.....these are perilous times. And yes we are a-ok....I'm no cessationist that;s for sure. Amen.....never stop learning and growing, and remain teachable and pliable clay in the Potter's hands, amen. All right I will try to remember what you are saying about those chapters, thank you, the Lord helping, because my memory is rubbish these days too. Bless you brother and have a nice evening.

 

[Lizbeth]

Good Morning,

Been busy with the new puppy = will take a look at your question - Thank You

With thanks to @Zao is life and yourself we settled on 'Kyrah Zoe Sweet Pea' as her full name

I found this out AFTER naming her Kyrah = ​

This name came to me as we were driving down to pick her up = without seeing her!!!​

​

Meanings and Origins of the name Kira​

The name Kira has rich and diverse origins. It holds significance in multiple languages and cultures, each adding unique flavors to its essence. In Japanese, Kira means "glitter" or "sparkle," conveying brilliance and vitality. This can symbolize a pet's shining personality and the joy they bring into their owner's lives.


In Persian, Kira means "sun," reflecting a radiant and illuminating presence. This may signify a pet's role as a beacon of happiness and warmth in a household. Meanwhile, in Russian, Kira is derived from the name Kyra, meaning "leader" or "lady." This gives a majestic and authoritative touch to the pet's persona, potentially marking them as influential members of their pack.

The rich tapestry of meanings and origins for the name Kira ensures that it carries an elegant, timeless charm regardless of the cultural context. Whether one interprets it through the lens of brilliance, warmth, or leadership, Kira is a name imbued with positive and powerful attributes.

Well they are all nice names, and I'm sure that puppy will be well loved. Animals are a refreshing respite from the world of people I find. We've got a golden retriever and a kitty. I occasionally watch you tube videos of animals and their antics....never cease to make me smile or laugh.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not saying to remove Revelation. Just that we need to first grasp the earlier scriptures to be able to start seeing Revelation in light of them. Having a preconceived wrong understanding of certain things in Rev causes us to start trying to force earlier scrips to fit our preconception. Put aside Rev long enough to let the earlier scrips just say what they are saying in themselves.

Aghain with the "putting aside" what Rev teaches. This is typical Amill practice since the rejection of Rev by Amills long ago. This is the double edged sword that applies back to Amill: Having a preconceived wrong understanding of certain things in Rev causes us to start trying to force earlier scrips to fit our preconception.

Do you have an answer to the question I asked you? Why God would have us looking for and hasting unto a day that is a thousand years after we have already gone to be with the Lord?

Why not? The bible tells us Christ returns and then a rule over the nations happens so why question that?

And why He would admonish us to take care what manner of persons we ought to be when we have already gone to our reward and are with the Lord those thousand years? It is for this life now that we are looking for and hasting the day Christ returns that we may go to be with Him.....and knowing that this world is going up in smoke when He returns what manner of persons ought we to be.

That is a false belief. The world is not going "up in smoke" at the second coming and no passage ever says so. All second coming passages have ZERO killing by fire, and the Earth and heavens not burnt as well. That happens far after the second coming.

.....looking for a new home that is heavenly.

Also false. Once Christ returns our forever home is Earth. On the old Earth for a short while, then upon the new Earth for eternity.

The way you and other interpret that verse about the day of God in 2 Peter 3 doesn't hold water. It is an example of trying to make that verse fit a preconceived idea about something in Rev instead of just letting it say what it is saying.

Yours doesn't hold water because it assumes something that verse never says, and ignores what other scriptures say about the second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Aghain with the "putting aside" what Rev teaches. This is typical Amill practice since the rejection of Rev by Amills long ago.

No Amill rejects the book of Revelation. You are an evil liar.

This is the double edged sword that applies back to Amill: Having a preconceived wrong understanding of certain things in Rev causes us to start trying to force earlier scrips to fit our preconception.

Amills base our doctrine on clear scriptures that we use to help understand more difficult scriptures in books like Revelation.

Why not? The bible tells us Christ returns and then a rule over the nations happens so why question that?

LOL. Why question that Jesus is going to burn up the earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) and that He is going to destroy the heathen with His rod of iron when He returns (Psalm 2:8-9)?

That is a false belief. The world is not going "up in smoke" at the second coming and no passage ever says so.

Nonsense.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

All second coming passages have ZERO killing by fire, and the Earth and heavens not burnt as well. That happens far after the second coming.

LOL. I guess 2 Peter 3:10-12 is not in your Bible.

Also false. Once Christ returns our forever home is Earth. On the old Earth for a short while, then upon the new Earth for eternity.

The earth will be renewed by fire when Jesus returns, resulting in the eternal new earth.

Yours doesn't hold water because it assumes something that verse never says, and ignores what other scriptures say about the second coming.

Look in the mirror. That is true about your false Premill belief.

 

[David in NJ]

Well they are all nice names, and I'm sure that puppy will be well loved. Animals are a refreshing respite from the world of people I find. We've got a golden retriever and a kitty. I occasionally watch you tube videos of animals and their antics....never cease to make me smile or laugh.

25 years ago we had a Black Lab and a Russian Blue cat = Pepper & Smokey, they were best of friends

 

[Marvelloustime]

same name
as FOR GOD so loved the world that HE sent His only begotten Son
so that all who do believe IN HIM should NOT perish but have everlasting life .
It is the GIFT OF GOD , ye are saved by grace and not that of yourselves .
TO THE LORD be the GLORY , to the LORD be all the praise with thunderous sounds of thanksgivings .

@amigo de christo