Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Lizbeth]

First of all the world is not going to literally burn up to begin with, nor is the universe going to explode. Second of all, not all Premils agree 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning some 1K years after Christ has returned. I certainly don't agree with that. IOW, the same day of the Lord and the timing of it meant in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is the same one meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Not even these same Premils think 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning some 1K years after Christ has returned. And that they should keep in mind that it is absurd that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night 2 different times separated by 1K years. Total nonsense that the DOTL and it's timing in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is not the same DOTL and it's timing in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Yes, agree, though I'm not 100% sure how to understand the burning up of this world....think we can safely say it will not be habitable for flesh to live on. And I agree that there are differing viewpoints in the details within both camps. Just that I happened to be responding to someone who is Premil who is arguing that the "day of God" in 2 Peter 3 represents a departure from the rest of the context and is referring to something that happens at the end of a future millennial reign. He is using that verse to support a Premil position and I have been trying to point out why that doesn't work.

 

[Lizbeth]

And besides, we end up with even more nonsense, that once Christ returns that this does not begin equaling this at the time---wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Are these Premils in question seriously going to have us believe there will be zero righteousness dwelling upon the earth once Christ returns? Especially the fact the beast and fp would be in the LOF and satan would be in the pit, per the Preml reading of things. And that Christ and His resurrected saints would be governing the entire planet? But that doesn't equal wherein dwelleth righteousness?

And guess what? You can't have a place wherein dwelleth righteousness without this--new heavens and a new earth

Therefore, even though I'm Premil, my position is that the NHNE are ushered in at the beginning of the millennium that follows Christ's return, and that the millennium is the 1st 1K years of the everlasting NHNE. Either that or Amil is the correct position not Premil. Except there is no way I think Amil is the correct position, nor do I think it is reasonable to place 2 Peter 3:10-12 some 1K years after 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning. What's left then as an option if not what I proposed? Is there a 4th option, or maybe even a 5th option? So on and so on.

These same Premils make the exact same mistake Pretribbers do, except these Premils, a lot of them are post trib. Just like Pretribbers do, where they instist the DOTL and the timing of it in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning at the beginning of great tribulation, thus does not equal the DOTL and the timing of the one meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12, these other Premils are doing something just as absurd. Where I already explained that earlier.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready .

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

2 questions need to be asked here. Because, obviously, if wedding imagery is being used, it has to match what a literal wedding in the real world might look like.

1) What does it mean when a wife has made herself ready?

2) Once a wife has made herself ready, when is she then adorned for her husband?

In the real world pertaining to a wedding, is there a huge gap between 1) and 2)? Like maybe years or even decades? That years or decades later after one's wife has made herself ready, she is then adorned for her husband? BTW, I'm not asking these things because I don't know the answers. I'm asking these things that these other Premils should be asking themselves, and then being intellectually honest and not prideful instead, by then admitting that maybe they have a few things amiss here. A few things that are not adding up.

Yes, there are a lot of things that don't add up. That's why people are having to twist things and invent things to try and make it work.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From post 832 on p. 42 where I asked ewq1938 about it:


Just think and consider (with fresh objective eyes and putting Rev aside for a moment), in 2 Peter 3, what need have we to look for and haste unto the coming of a future day of God a thousand years after we've already gone to be with the Lord? And why would we need to heed what manner of persons we ought to be if the world burns up a thousand years after we have died and been resurrected or raptured to be with the Lord? Are we being told to heed what manner of persons ought we to be after we've gone to be with the Lord, or in this life and this age now?

I have asked Premills similar questions in the past and I get no response. If the fiery destruction that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12 didn't occur until 1,000+ years after Christ returns, then there would be no point in Peter telling his readers to be careful about what type of people they should be while anticipating that event. But, you and I know that the reason he tells his readers that is because he doesn't want them to get caught up in the wrath, in the form of fire coming down upon the entire earth, that will occur on the day that Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10-12

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Are we being told to mind what manner of persons we ought to be during the alleged future idyllic thousand year reign? It doesn't make sense brother, when we will be "perfected" at His coming.

Absolutely. Premills will not address this because they know their understanding of 2 Peter 3:10-12 doesn't make sense. What some of them do to get around this is try to spiritualize the text despite the fact that there is no indication whatsoever that it should not be taken literally in a physical sense.

And please read what I just posted to ewq1938 this morning about the days of Noah being set forth in 2Peter 3 as an example. pg. 47, post 938. How was it in the days of Noah immediately preceding the wrath/judgment/flood? Idyllic or the opposite of idyllic? Are the days of Noah preceding the flood an example or picture of a future 1000 year reign of Christ, or is it an example of the days we are in now, which are waxing worse as we speak and filling up the cup of wrath?

Great question. And it will go unanswered because Premils know that they have no good answer for that question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First of all the world is not going to literally burn up to begin with, nor is the universe going to explode.

It's not going to be annhilated, if that's what you mean, but there definitely is going to be fire coming down upon the entire earth because that is what Peter taught. He compared that event directly to the flood in Noah's day in 2 Peter 3:6-7. He did not compare a symbolic event to a literal event.

Second of all, not all Premils agree 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning some 1K years after Christ has returned. I certainly don't agree with that. IOW, the same day of the Lord and the timing of it meant in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is the same one meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

But, if you don't interpret the destruction that Peter describes literally in a physical sense, then, to be consistent, you would need to interpret the "sudden destruction" that Paul said will occur on the day of the Lord as not being physical, either. Is your understanding of the "sudden destruction" that Paul relates to the day of the Lord that it's not physical destruction?

Not even these same Premils think 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning some 1K years after Christ has returned.

Right, so their interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is not consistent with their interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, at least you're trying to be consistent in your interpretations of each passage.

And that they should keep in mind that it is absurd that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night 2 different times separated by 1K years. Total nonsense that the DOTL and it's timing in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is not the same DOTL and it's timing in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

I don't think they would claim that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night 2 different times separated by 1,000 years, but that's what their interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 implies.

And besides, we end up with even more nonsense, that once Christ returns that this does not begin equaling this at the time---wherein dwelleth righteousness.

As a premil who believes that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when Christ returns, how do you conclude that wickedness will dwell in the new heavens and new earth as well as righteousness? That makes Peter's point that it will be a place where righteousness dwells pointless. But, if he's saying that only righteousness will ever dwell there and no wickedness at all, then that gives meaning to his statement.

Are these Premils in question seriously going to have us believe there will be zero righteousness dwelling upon the earth once Christ returns?

No. Why would they do that? There has always been at least some righteousness dwelling on the earth. But, is that all you think Peter is saying in 2 Peter 3:13? That there will be some righteousness rather than zero righteousness on the (new) earth when Christ returns?

Especially the fact the beast and fp would be in the LOF and satan would be in the pit, per the Preml reading of things. And that Christ and His resurrected saints would be governing the entire planet? But that doesn't equal wherein dwelleth righteousness?

And guess what? You can't have a place wherein dwelleth righteousness without this--new heavens and a new earth

But, again, why do you also have wickedness dwelling there? Surely, Peter was not saying that righteousness will dwell on the new earth with wickedness also dwelling there. What would be the point of him saying that righteousness will dwell on the new earth if wickedness would also dwell there?

Therefore, even though I'm Premil, my position is that the NHNE are ushered in at the beginning of the millennium that follows Christ's return, and that the millennium is the 1st 1K years of the everlasting NHNE. Either that or Amil is the correct position not Premil.

Amil is the correct position. No other position can make sense if the NHNE are ushered in when Christ returns. The Amil interpretation of 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:4 make far more sense than your Premil interpretation of those verses. Revelation 21:4 says there will be no more death after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, but you have a lot of death occurring after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 20:9).

Except there is no way I think Amil is the correct position

It clearly is the correct position. If you're going to acknowledge that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in when Christ returns, then you should also acknowledge that Amil is true because it makes no sense for a premil to think that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when Christ returns. The new heavens and new earth will be a place where only righteousness dwells and where no death, crying, sorrow or pain will occur. But, you have the new heavens and new earth being a place where wickedness will also dwell and where plenty of death, crying, sorrow and pain will occur.

, nor do I think it is reasonable to place 2 Peter 3:10-12 some 1K years after 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning. What's left then as an option if not what I proposed? Is there a 4th option, or maybe even a 5th option? So on and so on.

No, there isn't. You are left in confusion because only Amil can make sense of both 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

These same Premils make the exact same mistake Pretribbers do, except these Premils, a lot of them are post trib. Just like Pretribbers do, where they instist the DOTL and the timing of it in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is meaning at the beginning of great tribulation, thus does not equal the DOTL and the timing of the one meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12, these other Premils are doing something just as absurd. Where I already explained that earlier.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready .

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

2 questions need to be asked here. Because, obviously, if wedding imagery is being used, it has to match what a literal wedding in the real world might look like.

1) What does it mean when a wife has made herself ready?

It means it's time for the wedding to occur.

2) Once a wife has made herself ready, when is she then adorned for her husband?

Soon afterwards.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, agree, though I'm not 100% sure how to understand the burning up of this world....think we can safely say it will not be habitable for flesh to live on. And I agree that there are differing viewpoints in the details within both camps. Just that I happened to be responding to someone who is Premil who is arguing that the "day of God" in 2 Peter 3 represents a departure from the rest of the context and is referring to something that happens at the end of a future millennial reign. He is using that verse to support a Premil position and I have been trying to point out why that doesn't work.

Don't expect him to ever address that hole in his interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 since he knows it can't be done. I'm thinking about creating a new thread about this to see if I can get any Premils to respond. There are a few Premils, like Davidpt, who acknowledge that 2 Peter 3:10-12 will occur when Jesus returns, but they don't take the text literally like we do. So, that thread won't apply to them.

But, most Premils don't acknowledge that 2 Peter 3:10-12 describes things that will occur on the day Christ returns. Those Premils need to explain why Peter told his readers to be careful about their behavior and what kind of people they are while they look forward to the coming of the day of the Lord. It would make no sense for him to do that if the destruction he described in relation to the day of the Lord couldn't possibly occur in their lifetimes and would occur 1,000+ years after He returns instead. Why would Peter warn his readers about avoiding the Lord's wrath that couldn't possibly occur during their lifetimes? It makes no sense. No, he was warning his readers about the same thing that Paul warned his readers about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-11. He said they need to stay spiritually sober and remain in the spiritual light rather than be in spiritual darkness like unbelievers in order to avoid the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

A lot of the same Premils who deny that the destruction Peter wrote about in relation to the day of the Lord will occur when Christ returns acknowledge that the destruction Paul wrote about in relation to the day of the Lord will occur when Christ returns. That makes no sense. The reason that Paul said that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur when the day of the Lord comes is because fire will come down upon the entire earth on that day. They can't possibly escape that.

 

[Zao is life]

The main glue IN this fallin away IS the ecumeical movement . IT has come to merge the decieved
to be as one . And beleive me when i say IT AINT UNDER GOD . though they surely cliam it is .
These people are doing away with even THE GOSPEL ITSELF NOW
for a big ol fat broad path love and sin accepting lie of unbelif .
For more info , TRY looking at what these leaders told the false relgioins and christendom on stage
for all to see.
TALK about ANTI CHRIST . bud they wrapped up in this st uff too and its only getting worse all the time .

I fully agree that the modern ecumenical movement is not unity in the Spirit (Ephesians 4:1-6) but unity in the church - which is produced by the flesh, not by the Holy Spirit (I don't know if any ecumenicism of past centuries ever was unity in the Spirit).

But unlike any time in history before our lifetimes, the ecumenicism of today does not even stop at unity in the church produced in the flesh and not by the Spirit - it's unity of faiths with the claim that "We all serve the same God".

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness [G458 anomia] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he [G1096: ginomai come to pass / become / come into being] out of [G1537 ek: from out of] the midst [G3319 mesos: the midst].

IMO the Greek words do not suggest that the one withholding will be "taken out of the way" but that He who is withholding will withhold until the man of sin / son of perdition comes from out of the midst of the lawlessness - in the body of Christ.

Jesus prophesied thus about the coming lawlessness:

Ephesians 4
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do lawlessness [G458 anomia]
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus said to a previously religious generation who thought they were safe in their religion:

Matthew 23
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness [G458 anomia].

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The house that Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the body of Christ - the church, the Temple of God. The wheel will have made a complete revolution.

I've often wondered exactly what that lawlessness will entail. Possibly it will have something to do with changing the communion - the Lord's table - into something truly evil in order to incorporate other faiths into it (possibly among other vile practices that for example will lawlessly change the sacrifice that we observe at Easter)

- but I'm saying possibly, because Paul does not tell us or define the lawlessness he writes about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Hillsage]

2Pe 3:10-12

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I used to believe that "ELEMENTS" was equating to the 'Periodic chart of elements'; which is referencing things 'materially speaking' OF the EARTH. None of which is contextual with everything in "the WORLD"/KOSMOS. which represents the orderly arrangements of governments ON the earth.

Now, I look at the 'Peter verses' from the context of all the other '5- verses' using that same Greek word 'stoicheion' used for "elements", "rudiments", "principles" in the KJV.

4747 stoicheion: something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by impl.) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (lit.), proposition (fig.)

1- GAL 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements the world:

2- GAL 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye AGAIN to the weak and beggarly elements,...

3- COL 2:8* Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

4- COL 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

5- HEB 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

6- 2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

7- 2PE 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

in verse 13 we will now see what the new elements, having gone through the firey judments of God, look like.

"melt" = 5080 teko: to liquefy.

(Those who, as "overcomers" are ultimately buying from Jesus the spiritually "PURE GOLD" character of God and reflecting the image of the 'perfect one' God sent)......Rev 3:18 (last verse below.)

Now finishing 2Pet 3:10-14 'in context'.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved (BRETHREN), seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

REV 3:18 I counsel thee/BRETHREN to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; (spiritually) and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed (robe of righteousness), and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and
anoint/CHRISTOS thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The promise to the "OVERCOMERS" this side of glory....is to BECOME the pure who are spotless and blameless before God. That our rewards may be many on the OTHER side of glory, which we are looking toward.
"fire" in the Greek is the word is the word we get PURE from.

SRN #442 pur: "fire" (lit. or figuratively., spec. lightning)
I am not translating pur literally as the 'majority church' does. I hopefully interpret it 'figuratively' or [spiritually] Lizbeth.

Are we being told to mind what manner of persons we ought to be during the alleged future idyllic thousand year reign? It doesn't make sense brother, when we will be "perfected" at His coming.

Agreed

And please read what I just posted to ewq1938 this morning about the days of Noah being set forth in 2Peter 3 as an example. pg. 47, post 938. How was it in the days of Noah immediately preceding the wrath/judgment/flood? Idyllic or the opposite of idyllic? Are the days of Noah preceding the flood an example or picture of a future 1000 year reign of Christ, or is it an example of the days we are in now, which are waxing worse as we speak and filling up the cup of wrath?

Agreed. The carnal minded church that came, while the APOSTLES were still alive....became the APOSTATE Harlot most are 'looking for' to come. But every denomination to come out of HER generation-ally has had the same iniquit-ous antichrist DNA to this very day. So, worrying about ecuminism, as a new thing coming....it is NOT. It is simply mama calling all her subsequent generations, to this day, back home under her roof.

All the above is My OPINION, and I'm not going to argue with everyone here who might disagree.
You do still have my ear though...Lizbeth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I used to believe that "ELEMENTS" was equating to the 'Periodic chart of elements'; which is referencing things 'materially speaking' OF the EARTH. None of which is contextual with everything in "the WORLD"/KOSMOS. which represents the orderly arrangements of governments ON the earth.

Now, I look at the 'Peter verses' from the context of all the other '5- verses' using that same Greek word 'stoicheion' used for "elements", "rudiments", "principles" in the KJV.

4747 stoicheion: something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by impl.) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (lit.), proposition (fig.)

1- GAL 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements the world:

2- GAL 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye AGAIN to the weak and beggarly elements,...

3- COL 2:8* Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

4- COL 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

5- HEB 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

6- 2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

7- 2PE 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You had it right the first time before you changed your belief. Those other verses have completely different contexts than 2 Peter 3:10-12, so there is no basis for interpreting the word stoicheion the same way in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as in those other verses. In 2 Peter 3:6-7, Peter compares the fiery destruction of the heavens and the earth directly to the flood in Noah's day. He would not compare the destruction of the rudiments and principles of the world to what happened with the flood in Noah's day. He was clearly relating and comparing two similar events to each other. Two global, physical events.

in verse 13 we will now see what the new elements, having gone through the firey judments of God, look like.

"melt" = 5080 teko: to liquefy.

(Those who, as "overcomers" are ultimately buying from Jesus the spiritually "PURE GOLD" character of God and reflecting the image of the 'perfect one' God sent)......Rev 3:18 (last verse below.)

Now finishing 2Pet 3:10-14 'in context'.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved (BRETHREN), seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

REV 3:18 I counsel thee/BRETHREN to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; (spiritually) and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed (robe of righteousness), and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and
anoint/CHRISTOS thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The promise to the "OVERCOMERS" this side of glory....is to BECOME the pure who are spotless and blameless before God. That our rewards may be many on the OTHER side of glory, which we are looking toward.
"fire" in the Greek is the word is the word we get PURE from.

SRN #442 pur: "fire" (lit. or figuratively., spec. lightning)
I am not translating pur literally as the 'majority church' does. I hopefully interpret it 'figuratively' or [spiritually] Lizbeth.

Again, Peter was comparing similar events in 2 Peter 3:6-7. You have him comparing a figurative or spiritual event with a literal, physical event, which makes no sense.

 

[amigo de christo]

I fully agree that the modern ecumenical movement is not unity in the Spirit (Ephesians 4:1-6) but unity in the church - which is produced by the flesh, not by the Holy Spirit (I don't know if any ecumenicism of past centuries ever was unity in the Spirit).

But unlike any time in history before hour lifetimes, the ecumenicism of today does not even stop at unity in the church produced in the flesh and not by the Spirit - it's unity of faiths with the claim that "We all serve the same God".

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness [G458 anomia] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he [G1096: ginomai come to pass / become / come into being] out of [G1537 ek: from out of] the midst [G3319 mesos: the midst].

IMO the Greek words do not suggest that the one withholding will be "taken out of the way" but that He who is withholding will withhold until the man of sin / son of perdition comes from out of the midst of the lawlessness - in the body of Christ.

Jesus prophesied thus about the coming lawlessness:

Ephesians 4
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do lawlessness [G458 anomia]
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus said to a previously religious generation who thought they were safe in their religion:

Matthew 23
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness [G458 anomia].

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The house that Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the body of Christ - the church, the Temple of God. The wheel will have made a complete revolution.

I've often wondered exactly what that lawlessness will entail. Possibly it will have something to do with changing the communion - the Lord's table - into something truly evil in order to incorporate other faiths into it (possibly among other vile practices that for example will lawlessly change the sacrifice that we observe at Easter)

- but I'm saying possibly, because Paul does not tell us or define the lawlessness he writes about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

What has come within has done so under the guise is be of GOD , that it be of THE SPIRIT .
But it is NOT OF GOD nor OF HIS SPIRIT . The working of that which be of anti christ has infiltrated
by means of this ecumencism . It says things , it whispers to their hearts
This is love and is the way unto God but it is a liar and the father of lies .
It has sold them a harlot loves and by means of her love she leads them all into the darkest hour of rebellion that has been or
ever will be . To them it is the voice of love
to them it simply is the way , the life , the light and the plan of GOD to lead them to peace n saf ety .
BUT to the sheep we see it for what it is , The voice of he who has come in his own name
to lead this people to the day of perdition , to the day of their own SUDDEN destruction
BY THE VERY GOD and CHRIST , they all thought they loved . but a harlots love IS NO LOVE OF GOD
and it always leads only into REBELLION against GOD and His saints who did not conform to this harlots love .

 

[Hillsage]

Again, Peter was comparing similar events in 2 Peter 3:6-7. You have him comparing a figurative or spiritual event with a literal, physical event, which makes no sense.

What "makes no sense" to me are; those who have never received the THIRD baptism of the great commission, and yet consider themselves spiritual.

Another thing which makes no sense to me, are those who quote; "unity of spirit" totally out of context, thinking it means conformity to doctrine....theirs only.

EPH 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
(I believe this is a CALLING to CHRIST for new birth, not to DOCTRINE.)
2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love,
(I see too much haughtiness, arrogance, impatience here and too little forbearing of anyone who disagrees with ????/them.)
3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(I see too much zeal and too little true spiritual enlightenment, and little peace with BRETHREN who are disagreed with doctrinally.)

RSV ROM 10:2 I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.

From 'the bible';
PRO 11:14 Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory.
You all say, YES YES!!!

From 'the bible'
ISA 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
I say; ARE YOU SURE?

"my spirit" in KJV, RSV,
"My Spirit" in NKJV, NAS
"My spirit" in YLT
"my Spirit" in NIV

So, who here knows which holy spirit is being written about; in the written 6 infallible word of man translations?
The Holy Spirit OF GOD or the holy spirit of Christ IN the LORD?

Show time with the wife.
God be on ya, mates

 

[Lizbeth]

I used to believe that "ELEMENTS" was equating to the 'Periodic chart of elements'; which is referencing things 'materially speaking' OF the EARTH. None of which is contextual with everything in "the WORLD"/KOSMOS. which represents the orderly arrangements of governments ON the earth.

Now, I look at the 'Peter verses' from the context of all the other '5- verses' using that same Greek word 'stoicheion' used for "elements", "rudiments", "principles" in the KJV.

4747 stoicheion: something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by impl.) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (lit.), proposition (fig.)

1- GAL 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements the world:

2- GAL 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye AGAIN to the weak and beggarly elements,...

3- COL 2:8* Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

4- COL 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

5- HEB 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

6- 2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

7- 2PE 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

in verse 13 we will now see what the new elements, having gone through the firey judments of God, look like.

"melt" = 5080 teko: to liquefy.

(Those who, as "overcomers" are ultimately buying from Jesus the spiritually "PURE GOLD" character of God and reflecting the image of the 'perfect one' God sent)......Rev 3:18 (last verse below.)

Now finishing 2Pet 3:10-14 'in context'.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved (BRETHREN), seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

REV 3:18 I counsel thee/BRETHREN to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; (spiritually) and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed (robe of righteousness), and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and
anoint/CHRISTOS thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The promise to the "OVERCOMERS" this side of glory....is to BECOME the pure who are spotless and blameless before God. That our rewards may be many on the OTHER side of glory, which we are looking toward.
"fire" in the Greek is the word is the word we get PURE from.

SRN #442 pur: "fire" (lit. or figuratively., spec. lightning)
I am not translating pur literally as the 'majority church' does. I hopefully interpret it 'figuratively' or [spiritually] Lizbeth.


Agreed

Agreed. The carnal minded church that came, while the APOSTLES were still alive....became the APOSTATE Harlot most are 'looking for' to come. But every denomination to come out of HER generation-ally has had the same iniquit-ous antichrist DNA to this very day. So, worrying about ecuminism, as a new thing coming....it is NOT. It is simply mama calling all her subsequent generations, to this day, back home under her roof.

All the above is My OPINION, and I'm not going to argue with everyone here who might disagree.
You do still have my ear though...Lizbeth.

That is a deep dive I would say brother, and thank you for sharing that. Could it also be old versus new covenant.....the "firmament" between the cherubim on the ark being the old "heavens"?...old way of the earthly beggardly elements being burned up to make way as it were, for the new way of the Spirit, I sometimes seem to glimpse that there might be more than one depth or layer to things, but the carnal mind does get in the way, oh my....like a cement wall blocking out the light.

I think ecumenicalism had gone dormant for a time in the west as far as I was aware, but seems to be rearing up again in these last days. Yes, it's a very old story.....the spirit of the world and way that seemeth right to man. Rebellion. Man choosing his own way, instead of God.

 

[Douggg]

If the fiery destruction that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12 didn't occur until 1,000+ years after Christ returns, then there would be no point in Peter telling his readers to be careful about what type of people they should be while anticipating that event.

The point that Peter was making was not hold too tightly to the things of this world as this world and all of the works therein are going to be burnt up someday - adding more emphasis to what Jesus said in Matthew 6:

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[Lizbeth]

You had it right the first time before you changed your belief. Those other verses have completely different contexts than 2 Peter 3:10-12, so there is no basis for interpreting the word stoicheion the same way in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as in those other verses. In 2 Peter 3:6-7, Peter compares the fiery destruction of the heavens and the earth directly to the flood in Noah's day. He would not compare the destruction of the rudiments and principles of the world to what happened with the flood in Noah's day. He was clearly relating and comparing two similar events to each other. Two global, physical events.


Again, Peter was comparing similar events in 2 Peter 3:6-7. You have him comparing a figurative or spiritual event with a literal, physical event, which makes no sense.

Literal physical things in the bible often are allegories/figures for spiritual things. And we are told to compare spiritual with spiritual in scripture. Nevertheless destruction has been forecast, and at the very least all our physical bodies will dissolve when death comes, and we know that not everyone will be resurrected to eternal life.

 

[Marvelloustime]

What has come within has done so under the guise is be of GOD , that it be of THE SPIRIT .
But it is NOT OF GOD nor OF HIS SPIRIT . The working of that which be of anti christ has infiltrated
by means of this ecumencism . It says things , it whispers to their hearts
This is love and is the way unto God but it is a liar and the father of lies .
It has sold them a harlot loves and by means of her love she leads them all into the darkest hour of rebellion that has been or
ever will be . To them it is the voice of love
to them it simply is the way , the life , the light and the plan of GOD to lead them to peace n saf ety .
BUT to the sheep we see it for what it is , The voice of he who has come in his own name
to lead this people to the day of perdition , to the day of their own SUDDEN destruction
BY THE VERY GOD and CHRIST , they all thought they loved . but a harlots love IS NO LOVE OF GOD
and it always leads only into REBELLION against GOD and His saints who did not conform to this harlots love .

@amigo de christo

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, there are a lot of things that don't add up. That's why people are having to twist things and invent things to try and make it work.

Therefore, even though I'm Premil, my position is that the NHNE are ushered in at the beginning of the millennium that follows Christ's return,

Classic example of twisting scripture to conform to man's desire/pov.............
@Davidpt

The NHNE comes AFTER the 1,000 Literal Year Reign
There is No maneuvering around this except from one's own desire that is apart from God's words.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

NOTICE that the "Beast and False Prophet" are thrown into the LoF at the Second Coming of CHRIST and never Before His 2nd Coming!!!

 

[Lizbeth]

The point that Peter was making was not hold too tightly to the things of this world as this world and all of the works therein are going to be burnt up someday - adding more emphasis to what Jesus said in Matthew 6:

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Amen, although not in this respect alone...since it says "what manner of persons ought you to be in ALL holy conversation and Godliness".

 

[rwb]

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I've come to believe 'elements' in this verse is most likely reference to sun, moon, and stars that shall melt with fervent heat just as the earth and works upon the earth also. The fiery destruction is not depicting total annihilation but rather the vanishing of all that is of old to make new again.

Matthew 24:29 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 (KJV) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Luke 21:25 (KJV) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Isaiah 13:10 (KJV) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isaiah 24:23 (KJV) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Joel 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12-14 (KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

These verses help us to understand that 'time' (symbolically a thousand years) given the Church for proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the blood of Christ and His resurrection to life again shall one day be finished. The only time remaining for this world after this symbolic time has expired is a "little season" given to Satan, who will use this little season of time for one last attempt of preventing the Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as he and his mighty forces in full surround the saints who are still alive, spiritually representing the Holy City, New Jerusalem. When evil has come to its full, the fiery wrath of God through fire shall come down from God out of heaven to destroy all that remains on the earth AFTER the saints have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Lizbeth]

What has come within has done so under the guise is be of GOD , that it be of THE SPIRIT .
But it is NOT OF GOD nor OF HIS SPIRIT . The working of that which be of anti christ has infiltrated
by means of this ecumencism . It says things , it whispers to their hearts
This is love and is the way unto God but it is a liar and the father of lies .
It has sold them a harlot loves and by means of her love she leads them all into the darkest hour of rebellion that has been or
ever will be . To them it is the voice of love
to them it simply is the way , the life , the light and the plan of GOD to lead them to peace n saf ety .
BUT to the sheep we see it for what it is , The voice of he who has come in his own name
to lead this people to the day of perdition , to the day of their own SUDDEN destruction
BY THE VERY GOD and CHRIST , they all thought they loved . but a harlots love IS NO LOVE OF GOD
and it always leads only into REBELLION against GOD and His saints who did not conform to this harlots love .

Amen. It's a direct and very deceitful counterfeit of the real genuine things of God. False spirit, false love, false unity etc that is born of the filthy rags of man's own "righteousness" instead of submitting to the true righteousness of God in Christ. The way that seemeth right to man but leads to death/destruction.

I mean, it sure does seem as though the nations, including and especially deceived Christians who reject sound doctrine, are being deceived at the end of this age....devil being loosed as it were and allowed freer reign because the restrainer is being taken away....strong delusion that God is allowing/sending to those who have not received a love of the truth. This is all Babylon/Babel rising again...Babylon (like Rome) was very "multicultural" and composed of people of many divers religions/beliefs. Their various belief systems and practices were "tolerated" as long as they were united through worship of Caesar and King. Might be worth noting as well that the actual ancient city of Babylon is being dug up from it's earthly tomb and studied by archeologists in these days.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. It's a direct and very deceitful counterfeit of the real genuine things of God. False spirit, false love, false unity etc that is born of the filthy rags of man's own "righteousness" instead of submitting to the true righteousness of God in Christ. The way that seemeth right to man but leads to death/destruction.

I mean, it sure does seem as though the nations, including and especially deceived Christians who reject sound doctrine, are being deceived at the end of this age....devil being loosed as it were and allowed freer reign because the restrainer is being taken away....strong delusion that God is allowing/sending to those who have not received a love of the truth. This is all Babylon/Babel rising again...Babylon (like Rome) was very "multicultural" and composed of people of many divers religions/beliefs. Their various belief systems and practices were "tolerated" as long as they were united through worship of Caesar and King. Might be worth noting as well that the actual ancient city of Babylon is being dug up from it's earthly tomb and studied by archeologists in these days.

In the earliest known recordings
we see that Spirit at work amongst men .
WE ARE ONE , COME TO and let us be as one and build us a great tower that reaches unto heaven .
Any guesses where that tower was built
IN THE PLAINS of SHINAR . WHIC H IS BABYLONE . And from whence it sure do seem
that spirit has long b een at work .
She ev en shifted RIGHT into JERSUALEM , and she darn sure has ov ecome even much of chrisatendom now

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. It's a direct and very deceitful counterfeit of the real genuine things of God. False spirit, false love, false unity etc that is born of the filthy rags of man's own "righteousness" instead of submitting to the true righteousness of God in Christ. The way that seemeth right to man but leads to death/destruction.

I mean, it sure does seem as though the nations, including and especially deceived Christians who reject sound doctrine, are being deceived at the end of this age....devil being loosed as it were and allowed freer reign because the restrainer is being taken away....strong delusion that God is allowing/sending to those who have not received a love of the truth. This is all Babylon/Babel rising again...Babylon (like Rome) was very "multicultural" and composed of people of many divers religions/beliefs. Their various belief systems and practices were "tolerated" as long as they were united through worship of Caesar and King. Might be worth noting as well that the actual ancient city of Babylon is being dug up from it's earthly tomb and studied by archeologists in these days.

Notice the key sister .
Rome , much like king nebb and the iamge he set up in the plains of dura ,
THEY didnt care what god one followed , SO LONG as all bent the knee to the sure seems like INCLUSIVE all accepting image
Rome did not care what god one believed in at all . So long as subjects were loyal to whom .......................
ARE YOU SEEING THE KEY YET .
AND WHEN THE CHURCH SOLD ITSELF to THE POLITICAL REALM ,
before i continue its necessary for me to say It was no longer the actual CHURCH , but rather the outward appearance
of being the church .
WHEN IT DID it blended in the pagan .
MUCH LIKE DID JERUSLAM. OH JERSUALEM never abonded the fact IT bELIVED and served GOD
by lip . but in heart sure did as it too blended in baal and wo knows what else in to its worship .
MUCH like christendom surely has .
AND YET it too cries WE SERVE THE ONE TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST
SISTER ITS THE SAME IDENTICAL ENTITY at work . IT IS THE DEVIL .
IT IS OF MYSTERY BABYLONE . AND IT TOO has bowed the knee to govts of men .
IT TOO has blended in other religoins , E VEN stating we all serve the same GOD .
And we can see the one main enemy it has always had .
FOR what did the jews DO to the true prophets WHO ACT UALLY DID COME in the NAME OF GOD
they cast them out .
WHAT DID and does the same christendom do , IT REJECTS the true ones who bring the words of GOD .
THE ONE KEY thing they all have in common is
THEY DONT give a rip what one believes , THEY are tied into EARTHEN govts
who do contrary to GOD . THEY have one common enemy .
TRUTH . And why is that , CAUSE IT WONT BEND THE KNEE OR CO NFORM .
an d believe me when i say this dark one DO DESIRE the worship and to be praised of men
AS DO THE VERY MEN and leaders WHO lead this people .
OH it has only ONE ENEMY . THE TRUE LIGHT , THE TRUTH , For that exposes the darkness
IT exposes t heir sins , IT G ETS IN THE WAY of the very god they desired for to be seen
I hope i am making this simple enough . GO to and examine what their hopes are always in
THIS WORLD , THIS LIFE , T HE CARES AND PLEASURE IN THIS LIFE , trus ting and hoping in men
WHO FEED their own desires .
Ecumenicism IS OF BABYLON , IS of the darkness and the longer they stay captivated to it
THE MORE THEY HATE THE TRUTH that does NOT CONFORM BUT RATHER EXPOSES . aint
NOTHING NEW UN DER THE SUN sister. AND NOW ITS SWELLS AND GROWS MASSIVE .
THE END IS COMING . THE END OF ALL FLESH cometh . and THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING and will have profited them
N othing ON THE DAY OF THE LORD . oh sure they may have prospered in this life .
OH SURE they may have even had it easier and even grew rich . BUT IT WONT PROFIT THEM ONE THING
as they are blind , naked , POOR and in poverty OF THE TRUTH , ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .
THE END COMETH SISTER . AND ONLY THE WORDS OF THE LORD shall endure . ages come an d go
times change , BUT NOT GOD . AND ONLY THE SHEEP shall endure forever at the end .
ITS ALL A SELL OUT SISTER . but THE SHEEP BUY ONLY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT .