Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

(every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God).


It's shall
not must.

but if the shall means willingly.

Will God have all men to be saved?

In the English language
SHALL
means that something WILL COME TO BE./it will HAPPEN.

SHALL does not contain the idea of willingness -

 

[GodsGrace]

From an absolute point of view that is true. All will be saved but as I said there is an order that orthodox Christianity will not teach you.



Well what if you were holding a Bible and someone stabbed you but the knife went into the bible............JUST KIDDING!
Yes it is Jesus Christ who saves us, but professing his name is not like waving a magic wand.
Scripture is the Word of God and the Word of God is Jesus Christ.


Let's take a look:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Rom 1:20-21)

Sorry, I don't see it.


Here is the first Resurrection:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev 5:10)


How do you trust and obey if you don't understand?

And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, AND DO IT. (Luk 8:21)

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, AND KEEP IT. (Luk 11:28)


He most certainly did.

No, just one. The day of the Lord.
There is just one resurrection as well and that is Christ.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (Jhn 11:25)

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (First Resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn 5:29)



Well, if you're satisfied with salvation through God's wrath, then you are correct. I know that sounds demeaning and terrible but I'm sorry to say it's the truth. (I'm really not trying to be mean here).



Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Joh 5:25)

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. (Mar 4:11-12)

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. (Mar 4:23-25)

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk8:12)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (Joh 5:24)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Jhn 10:27)

I'm not sure how you can advise someone that they need not hear the Word of God in order to be saved.


It means that everyone will be saved. Of course you need to verify this through other witnesses. Hold tight.

Let's put them together:

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you view your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
“As I live, says the [a]Lord, to Me every knee shall bow,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

Yes we all will stand before the judgment seat of God but PLEASE pay close attention:

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for WHEN thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isa 26:9)

There you have it.

WHEN thy judgments are in the earth, (we will all stand before the judgment seat of God) the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God).

Good morning Beepster
Much to address -it'll have to wait till later.
However, I do gather that you're a universalist.
I believe Jesus taught that there is a place where God is not...
however, you'll find that this topic does not interest me too much.
The reasons are several and not worth getting into.
But you do bring up interesting points that I enjoy discussing.
Later.

 

[soberxp]

In the English language
SHALL
means that something WILL COME TO BE./it will HAPPEN.

SHALL does not contain the idea of willingness -

Shall I understand it?
Should I understand it?
Shall I surely die when I eat the knowledge of the good and evil?

 

[Lambano]

In the English language
SHALL
means that something WILL COME TO BE./it will HAPPEN.

SHALL does not contain the idea of willingness -

Shall I understand it?
Should I understand it?

@soberxp, I checked the original language (Hebrew) using online tools, and the verb type (yiqtol) indicates that the action is either happening in the present or will happen in the future. So, @GodsGrace is correct.

Why I found this interesting enough to look up is because I represent my company on several Industry Standards boards, and in our specs, "SHALL" is a keyword meaning that compliance is required. I suspect they intentionally wanted to echo the language used in the English translations of the Ten Commandments, "You SHALL have no other gods before me", "You SHALL not murder".

 

[GodsGrace]

Shall I understand it?
Should I understand it?
Shall I surely die when I eat the knowledge of the good and evil?

soberxp
Your mother tongue is some form of Chinese.
You cannot teach the English language to one whose mother tongue is English....
and one that kinda has to know English really well due to the work they did.

So here's your lesson:

When asking a question, SHALL may be used.
Noice that I said MAY be used.
You can also learn the difference between MAY and CAN.

Shall I go to the store?
Should I go to the store?

The meaning is exactly the same....


INSTEAD

I shall go to the store.
I should go to the store.

ARE DIFFERENT.

Shall is denoting an action that is going to definetly take place.
Should is asking whether or not an action might take place.

The difference is between asking and stating.
SHALL is used differently in each case.

 

[soberxp]

soberxp
Your mother tongue is some form of Chinese.
You cannot teach the English language to one whose mother tongue is English....
and one that kinda has to know English really well due to the work they did.

So here's your lesson:

When asking a question, SHALL may be used.
Noice that I said MAY be used.
You can also learn the difference between MAY and CAN.

Shall I go to the store?
Should I go to the store?

The meaning is exactly the same....


INSTEAD

I shall go to the store.
I should go to the store.

ARE DIFFERENT.

Shall is denoting an action that is going to definetly take place.
Should is asking whether or not an action might take place.

The difference is between asking and stating.
SHALL is used differently in each case.

I’m even more confused now. In any case, Chinese isn’t used this way in sentences.

When Jesus comes, you shall see Him if you have eyes; but if you do not look up to the sky, then you shall have missed Him.

When Jesus comes, you should see Him if you have eyes; but if you do not look up to the sky, then you should have missed Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

From an absolute point of view that is true. All will be saved but as I said there is an order that orthodox Christianity will not teach you.

We have some miscommunication here and it'll be easy to resolve.
We agree that it is not necessary to understand the bible in order to be saved.

To clarify....
all we need is:
1. Belief in God
2. Obedience to God

Well what if you were holding a Bible and someone stabbed you but the knife went into the bible............JUST KIDDING!

Yes it is Jesus Christ who saves us, but professing his name is not like waving a magic wand.

Couldn't agree with you more.
We have some members on these Forums who do seem to believe that belief is like a magic wand.

Scripture is the Word of God and the Word of God is Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

I do hope you agree with me about the Logos...
but Jesus being THE WORD is sufficient.

Let's take a look:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Rom 1:20-21)

Sorry, I don't see it.

Let's see if we can make you see what everyone sees in Romans.

Romans 1:19-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,,,


Verse 18 God is mad at everyone that is ungodly and unrighteous.

Verse 19 Why is God mad? Because God made Himself evident to them...to the unrighteous. They had the opportunity to know God.

Verse 20 How has God revealed Himself? Since the creation, since the beginning of the world, God's invisible attributes, His power, His nature have been clearly seen through what was made, through creation itself.

This is why all men will be without excuse at judgement time.
Because God has always revealed Himself in one way or the other.

Verse 21 Cleary states that they KNEW God, through creation itself, but did not honor Him...
and so they will be without excuse.


The problem here is that you don't believe anyone will need an excuse since you believe in universalism.
But I don't mean to put words in your mouth....please explain how you do not see this in the above verses.

Here is the first Resurrection:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev 5:10)

I did say that I'm not very knowledgeable with eschatology and you're referencing Revelation will be of no help unless you explain what the above mean.

As I understant...there is ONE resurrection...
at the end of the world when Jesus returns.

How do you trust and obey if you don't understand?

And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, AND DO IT. (Luk 8:21)

But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, AND KEEP IT. (Luk 11:28)

You don't like the book of Romans?


Romans 2:14-15
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Jesus gave the two great commandments.
When we love someone we will not harm them....no command necessary.
The law will be in the heart.

The very difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.
Obedience is still required...
the method is different.

He most certainly did.

Yes sir. Jesus died for everyone.
Agreed.

No, just one. The day of the Lord.
There is just one resurrection as well and that is Christ.

Oh. You're calling the born again experience a resurrection?
Then I agree.


Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (Jhn 11:25)

Agreed.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; (First Resurrection) and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn 5:29)

In John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection.
Some will have "life" and some will have damnation.

You're saying there are two?

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


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[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 2

Well, if you're satisfied with salvation through God's wrath, then you are correct. I know that sounds demeaning and terrible but I'm sorry to say it's the truth. (I'm really not trying to be mean here).

Why would I have to have salvation through God's wrath if I don't understand the parables?
Does God love those that understand them more than those that do not?

Acts 10:34
34 And opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most truly comprehend now that God is not one to show partiality,

Romans 2:11
11For God shows no partiality.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Joh 5:25)

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. (Mar 4:11-12)

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. (Mar 4:23-25)

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk8:12)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (Joh 5:24)

None of the above verses state that we MUST UNDERSTAND scripture in order to be saved.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Jhn 10:27)

ALL believers hear the voice of God.
Even those that have never studied the bible.

I'm not sure how you can advise someone that they need not hear the Word of God in order to be saved.

What you've stated above is NOT what I tell persons.
You picked something I stated..which is correct...and are posting regarding THAT very specific statement.

I NEVER tell persons not to read the bible.

It means that everyone will be saved. Of course you need to verify this through other witnesses. Hold tight.

Let's put them together:

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you view your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
“As I live, says the [a]Lord, to Me every knee shall bow,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

Yes we all will stand before the judgment seat of God but PLEASE pay close attention:

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for WHEN thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isa 26:9)

Except that it's too late AFTER we have died.

The problem I have with universalism is this:
It's not a salvation issue so I tend not to post about it since my time here is limited.

HOWEVER
Some new Christians might be led astary.
IOW, YOU might be a very nice person who wants to obey God....
but there are persons on these boards that plainly state that obedience is not necessary for salvation.

Isn't universalism taking it even a step further?
Why obey if everyone is going to be saved anyway?

There you have it.

WHEN thy judgments are in the earth, (we will all stand before the judgment seat of God) the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God).

Too late after death.

Today is the day of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m even more confused now. In any case, Chinese isn’t used this way in sentences.

When Jesus comes, you shall see Him if you have eyes; but if you do not look up to the sky, then you shall have missed Him.

When Jesus comes, you should see Him if you have eyes; but if you do not look up to the sky, then you should have missed Him.

English does not have set rules and is not an easy language to learn.
If I were learning some form of the Chinese language and YOU taught me something...
I would accept it.

However, YOU can do as you believe best.

Shall and Should are different.

I shall see Jesus
is different than
I should see Jesus.

You really should learn the difference.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The short answer to your question is, Yes "God will have all men to be saved."

Many people think that if God only wishes or desires something to happen that man's free will can somehow override that.

Do you? Do you think we have the free will to thwart God's will?

Free will is a gift...or it was meant to be in the beginning....provided that the humans obeyed their Creator in one simple command. There was access to “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”....but in front of it was a big warning from the Creator....eat of this tree and...”you will surely die”.

God placed two specific trees in the garden...one that was life giving....and the other death dealing. Free will was the difference between consuming the fruit of either one. To obey God’s instruction and leave the tree that God had claimed as his own property, alone, would give the humans access to the other... “tree of life.”

Most people, I believe, fail to understand what free will is, and why God gave it to his children both in heaven and on earth, in the first place. If we were not all endowed with free will, none of what happened in the garden could have taken place....

So why were we given free will, if it’s abuse could create so much havoc in the world? Was it a mistake? Or was there a bigger picture?

What do you think?
What does Scripture tell us about that?

 

[Beebster]

You think THE WORD means the words that God speaks?

Well........Yeah!
By the..Hello

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God.

And a person?

The Word is what God speaks....but words such as we use to speak? Maybe it's more?

Words are spirit.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Mat 12:36 )

Girl, I'm in trouble.

It's the Logos of God which is more than just His word.

"Logos" means "word."
I've heard so many people try to spin this in so many ways, it's exhausting.
And why?
Some to prove Jesus is eternal and others to prove that there is only one God.

But let's stay with WORD.

We should. "Word" is a proper translation of "logos."

So in John 1:14 WHAT becomes flesh?

The Word of God.

Not to put words in your mouth...but you want to state that the SPOKEN words of God have become flesh?

Gen 1:3 And GOD SAID, Let there be light: and there was light.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

OK.
Those spoken words of God are now flesh...
they are now HUMAN...

But, being God's words, they were ALWAYS with Him and are a part of Him.
Thus, they are God since the are generated by God.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

The WORD is in English.
The original is LOGOS.

It's a little bit more than WORD.
Jesus is the reason of God, His best revelation of Himself. God's wisdom and will.
The logos of God brings life and creation...through the logos God created.

I believe you have this backward.
Logos is word.
And Jesus is much more than The Word.

If you wish take a verse like John 1:1 and replace the "Word" with the "Lamb" or the "Son of God" etc......for the purpose of understanding or even teaching, I see no issue.
However if you allow men to redefine a simple word (pun not intended) you miss the whole truth and are sent off following false doctrine.

There is a reason "Logos" is used in John.

It witnesses to the creation of Christ.

 

[Beebster]

We have some miscommunication here and it'll be easy to resolve.
We agree that it is not necessary to understand the bible in order to be saved.

Relatively speaking yes. All will be saved.
In absolute terms we will all learn righteousness which includes understanding.

To clarify....
all we need is:
1. Belief in God
2. Obedience to God

You're speaking of blind faith in which case you cannot be obedient.

 

[Lambano]

It's a little bit more than WORD.
Jesus is the reason of God, His best revelation of Himself. God's wisdom and will.
The logos of God brings life and creation...through the logos God created.

"Logos" means "word."
I've heard so many people try to spin this in so many ways, it's exhausting.
And why?

Logos in Greek is the rational principle that orders and governs and animates and holds together the universe. It is similar in concept to the Chochmah ("wisdom") in Proverbs 8:22-31. This is what was in the beginning with God and through which all things were made. And this is what became flesh and dwelt among us.

One of the unanswerable questions I have is, can God's rational ordering principle and creative wisdom be considered a Person in itself before it became flesh and dwelt among us?

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. (Proverbs 8:22-31

 

[Beebster]

Free will is a gift...or it was meant to be in the beginning....provided that the humans obeyed their Creator in one simple command. There was access to “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”....but in front of it was a big warning from the Creator....eat of this tree and...”you will surely die”.

Hello AJ.
Why was there access?

Most people, I believe, fail to understand what free will is, and why God gave it to his children both in heaven and on earth, in the first place.

Please explain your definition of free will.

If we were not all endowed with free will, none of what happened in the garden could have taken place....

I would argue the opposite. Why did Eve need to be tempted if she had free will?

What do you think?
What does Scripture tell us about that?

I don't think we have free will.
I think it's a man made doctrine to excuse God from saving his creation.

 

[Beebster]

Hello Lambano, nice to meet you.

Logos in Greek is the rational principle that orders and governs and animates and holds together the universe.

Says who? (that sounds mean but it's not meant to be, just the first thing that came to mind)

One of the unanswerable questions I have is, can God's rational ordering principle and creative wisdom be considered a Person in itself before it became flesh and dwelt among us?

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. (Proverbs 8:22-31

Sounds like the creation of Christ to me. Our carnal minds, mine included, have a very hard time discerning spiritual things and in fact it is impossible to do so without Christ.

I do read, and have seen some of your posts but I do have trouble keeping names straight.

I do not subscribe to the trinity doctrine.
I believe Jesus Christ is God but not The Father, though he is our Father.
I believe Christ is our creator which does not exclude God the Father.
I believe Jesus Christ was created and was the first thing, for want of a better word, that God the Father created.
I also believe that Christ is still being created.
And foremost I believe that God will save all of humanity.

This list can go on and on but I'll leave it there.
I apologize for not remembering where you stand on these beliefs so please let me know.

Peace.

 

[Beebster]

page 2 of 2

Why would I have to have salvation through God's wrath if I don't understand the parables?

In your case it's because your teaching without understanding.

Does God love those that understand them more than those that do not?

Acts 10:34
34 And opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most truly comprehend now that God is not one to show partiality,

Romans 2:11
11For God shows no partiality.

Well, by your argument we could add those that reject God. Does God love those who accept him more than those who don't? After all God is not partial right?

The point being made is whether you are are a king of nations or some hick from down south Alabama who thinks fathers and sons are the same age, you will be treated no differently on judgement day.

None of the above verses state that we MUST UNDERSTAND scripture in order to be saved.

Then you simply don't understand what "hearing" means.

ALL believers hear the voice of God.
Even those that have never studied the bible.

Not true. Hearing is understanding.

What you've stated above is NOT what I tell persons.
You picked something I stated..which is correct...and are posting regarding THAT very specific statement.

I NEVER tell persons not to read the bible.

Why not? Your whole argument is that we don't need to understand to be saved.

Except that it's too late AFTER we have died.

Chapter and verse please. Don't bother though, you won't find it.
The scriptural fact is, you must die in order to be saved.

The problem I have with universalism is this:
It's not a salvation issue so I tend not to post about it since my time here is limited.

HOWEVER
Some new Christians might be led astary.
IOW, YOU might be a very nice person who wants to obey God....
but there are persons on these boards that plainly state that obedience is not necessary for salvation.

You will not be saved without obedience to God.

Isn't universalism taking it even a step further?
Why obey if everyone is going to be saved anyway?

You tell me. Elaborate please.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well........Yeah!
By the..Hello

And a person?

Yes. The Holy Spirit is a Person.
This is the Trinity.
God Father
God Son
God Holy Spirit
The Trinity.
Each is a Person...but only one being/nature/essence.

Words are spirit.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Mat 12:36 )

So if I speak a WORD, it's the same as God speaking a WORD??
My words do not create.
They only communicate.

Girl, I'm in trouble.


"Logos" means "word."
I've heard so many people try to spin this in so many ways, it's exhausting.
And why?
Some to prove Jesus is eternal and others to prove that there is only one God.

Logos means MORE than than the word of God.
If you don't accept it, fine.
It's not a salvation issue and I'm not here to debate it.
BUT
Jesus, as the Son, IS eternal.
And there is only One God.....
Those that want to prove this are correct.

We should. "Word" is a proper translation of "logos."

The Word of God.

Gen 1:3 And GOD SAID, Let there be light: and there was light.

I believe you're conflating when God SPEAKS
and His word as Logos, which is a bit more - but we're repeating.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Don't understand your point.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

Here Jesus means the words as in communication.
Jesus is communicating what He wants us to know about the Father and what the Father is telling Him
to SPEAK, as in communicate.

The WORD OF GOD is more than mere communication.
The LOGOS is more than communication and more than word.

I believe you have this backward.
Logos is word.
And Jesus is much more than The Word.

That goes without saying.
Jesus is more than the Word....
He is the Logos incarnate.

If you wish take a verse like John 1:1 and replace the "Word" with the "Lamb" or the "Son of God" etc......for the purpose of understanding or even teaching, I see no issue.
However if you allow men to redefine a simple word (pun not intended) you miss the whole truth and are sent off following false doctrine.

MEN is all we have to go by Beepster.
MEN understood that Jesus was God and had to define this and create the term/word Trinity.
MEN knew Jesus and taught us about Him.
MEN wrote the bible and
MEN decided what the canon would be.

§Without these men that you seem not to trust,,,there would be no Christian religion or knowledge of Jesus.

There is a reason "Logos" is used in John.

It witnesses to the creation of Christ.

Yes sir.
God's word creates.
NOT the spoken word.

I'm not a scholar and may not be explaining this correctly (but I believe I am)
so for those reading along I found a good explanation of LOGOS, which is translated as word:

I don't know who this fellow is, but his explanation is to the point and accurate:

 

[GodsGrace]

Relatively speaking yes. All will be saved.
In absolute terms we will all learn righteousness which includes understanding.

You're speaking of blind faith in which case you cannot be obedient.

Where did I mention blind faith?
Why is belief in God blind faith?
I posted Romans 1:19-21 why not reply to that instead?

 

[GodsGrace]

In your case it's because your teaching without understanding.

This conversation is getting out of hand.

I TEACH nothing on here.
I post about the Christian religion and basically because many twist it to mean what they want it to mean.

And
HOW would it even be possible to teach something a person does not understand??

Well, by your argument we could add those that reject God. Does God love those who accept him more than those who don't? After all God is not partial right?

Sir,,,there are conditions to being saved.
Conditions you most probably do not accept.

God desires all to be saved...
but not all will.
Why?

This is why:

God desires all to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


There is a condition:

John 3:16
16 “For God [a]so loved the world, that He gave His [b]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The point being made is whether you are are a king of nations or some hick from down south Alabama who thinks fathers and sons are the same age, you will be treated no differently on judgement day.

Agreed.
Judgement will not be dependant on status.
As I stated, God is NOT a respector of persons.

Then you simply don't understand what "hearing" means.

No.
The point is that the verses you posted do NOT represent what you stated.
Please go back and post each verse and explain how it states that we MUST UNDERSTAND scripture.

Not true. Hearing is understanding.

The Greek wod TO HEAR means to UNDERSTAND.

What I stated is this:

ALL BELIEVERS HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD.

Why do you limit God?
Can He not speak to me in a way He knows I'll understand?
Do you only know about God what you've read about?
Does He not reveal Himself to you UNLESS it's the written word?

Why not? Your whole argument is that we don't need to understand to be saved.

Let me say it a little louder:

ALL WE NEED TO BE SAVED IS:
1. Belief in God.
2. Obedience to God.

If you wish to make it more complicated - fine.
You can believe what you will.


1 Corinthians 2:1-5
2 And when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with superiority of word or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the [a]witness of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my word and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Chapter and verse please. Don't bother though, you won't find it.
The scriptural fact is, you must die in order to be saved.

I won't find it?
I believe in orthodox christianity.
I can find support for everything I state on this forum.

IT IS TOO LATE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH.
Here's your verse:

Hebrews 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is [r]appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,


Luke 15:9-31
19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away * and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house -
28 for I have five brothers -in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "


I posted all of it because there is much to be learned here:

1. Those dead were already separated and had already been judged.
Some were in torment and some were in Abraham's bossom.

2. Verse 25 speaks of the previous life---when the choice was still available to both Lazarus and the rich man.

3. Verse 28 the tormented man wanted his brothers, that were still alive to be WARNED about this judgment...
but he was told that they would not believe.

Which means, that one must believe BEFORE he dies.

You will not be saved without obedience to God.

Correct.

You tell me. Elaborate please.

LOL
I am not making your case for you.
You'll have to do that.

I am NOT a universalist.
NOT everyone is going to be saved.

Which MIGHT be what you believe although you have not declared it yet.

 

[GodsGrace]

Logos in Greek is the rational principle that orders and governs and animates and holds together the universe. It is similar in concept to the Chochmah ("wisdom") in Proverbs 8:22-31. This is what was in the beginning with God and through which all things were made. And this is what became flesh and dwelt among us.

One of the unanswerable questions I have is, can God's rational ordering principle and creative wisdom be considered a Person in itself before it became flesh and dwelt among us?

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. (Proverbs 8:22-31

Lambano,
I don't believe (and it's not done) that we can use poetic scripture to create doctrine.
It can SUPPORT a doctrine, but the doctrine must exist from other biblical sources that are literal and not poetic.
So I wouldn'tuse Proverbs for understanding the word or we'd have to believe that Jesus, as the wisdom of God, was created.

But my humble reply would be, yes, the 3 Persons already existed.
They always existed or they would have been created and no Person of the Trinity is created but always existed with God.

Was the Holy Spirit always in existance?
Same for the Word. The Logos, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.