Who really created the Son of God?

[Hiddenthings]

Cont...

This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” a citation of Psalm 68:18. Several of Paul’s phrases indicate that, in quoting Psalm 68, he was also fully aware of the allusions to Israel’s wilderness journey.

For example: “Unto every one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ” (Eph. 4:7). Here, “grace” (charis) clearly refers to a gift of the Spirit, as in many other passages. When Paul continues, “Wherefore it saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive”, he means that Christ brought those who had been captives of sin into a lighter, liberating bondage (cf. Matt. 11:28–29; see also Judges 5:12 for the idiom).

Ultimately, this was accomplished by destroying the power of sin and the devil (flesh power), and by becoming the firstfruits of the dead (Heb. 2:14–15; 4:15; 1 Cor. 15:20; cf. Col. 1:18).

@dak these are references you currently stand at odds with!

The gifts that followed, almost an ecstatic experience, served as visible proof of the joyful and liberating character of this new service.

The parallel with Numbers 11 is noteworthy. There, the Angel of the Covenant “came down in a cloud… and took of the Spirit that was upon Moses and gave it to the seventy elders” (Num. 11:25). The phrase “came down” is the idiomatic way Scripture describes a theophany, while “ascended” indicates not just a literal ascension to God’s presence but also marks the conclusion of the theophany (cf. Psa. 47:5).

In Christ, the theophany began when he “descended into the lower parts of the earth”, a phrase that refers both to the depths of the earth and, prophetically, to His Manifestation in the condemned nature of His Son (cf. Psa. 139:15; Luke 1:35). The emphasis on “descended first” underscores that, if ascended signals the completion of the God-manifestation, then descended rightly describes Christ’s open exhibition among men of the Father’s character and purpose (cf. John 7:16; 10:36–37). This was fully realized in His earthly ministry.

Having accomplished this work, Jesus “ascended far above all heavens… that he might fill all things” (cf. 1 Tim. 3:16, “received up into glory”). Two additional phrases echo Israel’s wilderness experience:

1. When the covenant was ratified at Sinai, the seventy elders saw a vision of God enthroned (Exod. 24:10). This was the Almighty enthroned above the heavens.
2. In His ascension, Jesus not only shared in the personal presence of the Father but also in His status (Phil. 2:9–11; Eph. 1:22).

Just as “the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle” at its consecration (Exod. 40:34), so after His ascension the gifts of the Spirit filled all things in the Ecclesia, completing and perpetuating the work of divine presence among His people.

Psalm 68 and Ephesians 4 contain nothing that teaches the idea of a pre-existent or pre-eternal Son.

 

[dak]

Cont...

This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men” a citation of Psalm 68:18. Several of Paul’s phrases indicate that, in quoting Psalm 68, he was also fully aware of the allusions to Israel’s wilderness journey.

For example: “Unto every one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ” (Eph. 4:7). Here, “grace” (charis) clearly refers to a gift of the Spirit, as in many other passages. When Paul continues, “Wherefore it saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive”, he means that Christ brought those who had been captives of sin into a lighter, liberating bondage (cf. Matt. 11:28–29; see also Judges 5:12 for the idiom).

Ultimately, this was accomplished by destroying the power of sin and the devil (flesh power), and by becoming the firstfruits of the dead (Heb. 2:14–15; 4:15; 1 Cor. 15:20; cf. Col. 1:18).

@dak these are references you currently stand at odds with!

The gifts that followed, almost an ecstatic experience, served as visible proof of the joyful and liberating character of this new service.

The parallel with Numbers 11 is noteworthy. There, the Angel of the Covenant “came down in a cloud… and took of the Spirit that was upon Moses and gave it to the seventy elders” (Num. 11:25). The phrase “came down” is the idiomatic way Scripture describes a theophany, while “ascended” indicates not just a literal ascension to God’s presence but also marks the conclusion of the theophany (cf. Psa. 47:5).

In Christ, the theophany began when he “descended into the lower parts of the earth”, a phrase that refers both to the depths of the earth and, prophetically, to His Manifestation in the condemned nature of His Son (cf. Psa. 139:15; Luke 1:35). The emphasis on “descended first” underscores that, if ascended signals the completion of the God-manifestation, then descended rightly describes Christ’s open exhibition among men of the Father’s character and purpose (cf. John 7:16; 10:36–37). This was fully realized in His earthly ministry.

Having accomplished this work, Jesus “ascended far above all heavens… that he might fill all things” (cf. 1 Tim. 3:16, “received up into glory”). Two additional phrases echo Israel’s wilderness experience:

1. When the covenant was ratified at Sinai, the seventy elders saw a vision of God enthroned (Exod. 24:10). This was the Almighty enthroned above the heavens.
2. In His ascension, Jesus not only shared in the personal presence of the Father but also in His status (Phil. 2:9–11; Eph. 1:22).

Just as “the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle” at its consecration (Exod. 40:34), so after His ascension the gifts of the Spirit filled all things in the Ecclesia, completing and perpetuating the work of divine presence among His people.

Psalm 68 and Ephesians 4 contain nothing that teaches the idea of a pre-existent or pre-eternal Son.

This and your previous post only serve to prove the things I have already stated: you are incapable of believing the scripture for what it plainly says. Psalm 68:18 neither mentions Jesus nor does it contain the Tetragrammaton name of the Father: it says Yah Elohim, and uses that name in an anthropomorphic context of ascending and descending the heavens.

Moreover the Hebrew word laqach is much the same as the Greek word lambano, which both can be understood as either receiving or bringing, (both in the sense of taking). The LXX uses lambano in the Psalm but Paul uses didomi in the Ephesians passage, most likely so as to avoid the confusion. One may easily see that this did result in confusion when it comes to translators rendering the Psalm 68:18 passage, beginning with the KJV, ("thou hast received gifts for men"). However, let's say the KJV rendering is correct: who then did Yah Elohim receive the gifts from, which are said to be gifts for men? You didn't even read that part of the passage correctly, for you said in your previous post, "gifts from men", which is not stated anywhere, and other later translations even now have switched to "Thou hast received gifts among men", which is even more confusing.

You Received Gifts from Men: This refers to the gifts of wisdom from the Holy Spirit given to Moses’ seventy helpers (Numbers 11:24–25), when “the Lord came down” in the person of the Angel of the Covenant (Exodus 23:20–25). In Scripture, the phrase “coming down” is a well-established idiom for a theophany (Genesis 11:5; 18:21; Exodus 3:7–8, 19:11,18–20; 34:5; Psalm 19:8; Isaiah 64:1), while “you ascended on high” indicates the conclusion of this divine appearance.

Gifts from Men: The gifts given to and received from men (Hebrew laqach, which is ambiguous) may also allude to the Levites, who were simultaneously a gift from God to Israel and a gift from Israel to God (Numbers 3:5–10; 8:9–10; 17:6).

Moreover, you are all over the place, and appear to be unable to focus on the actual point that was made in this topic of discussion, and your wild speculations regarding the statement in the Psalm also reveal that you do not even believe what Paul says plainly in the surface text of the Eph 4 passage.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Maybe Jesus was once a regular person like us but lived in another world. After going to Heaven Jesus was permitted to engage in creation and then created us with the knowledge that he would have to do everything that he did.

Maybe you and I will one day create a world and people to inhabit it and then go into it to be like Jesus.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well, the scripture is spot on and there's more. However, I would not attach the concept of a not-supported god-man to this scripture and who forgives sin or who is a mere man at this stage though. It would cloud the topic very quickly.

Here's a quick primer on the subject of the second man/last Adam. It does though strongly suggest that Yeshua had to be created by the Father via his own word/Spirit, even if this is said within the words of scripture already.

----------------------------------
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”
(1 Corinthians 15:45)

The word First means:

preceding or ahead of any others in order; or occurring before any others in a series

The word Second means:

coming after the first in a series; or additional to, repeating, or following one that came before or was previously mentioned

The Timeline Determining When:

The expression “this day” narrows the “Christ” (the anointed) being begotten (born/made) to a fixed point in time after the creation:

(Psalm 2:7) – I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. At his baptism/anointing.

(Hebrews 1:5) – For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

(Genesis 1:5) – And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Before Genesis 1:5 (the first day), there was no such thing as a day!

Christ was begotten of a woman (Mary) at a fixed point in time and that point in time was after the first day, the day of his conception was when he was “made of a woman”?

Some try to argue Adam was made and Christ was begotten, as though one should cancel out the other, but they don’t.

Both are correct: Yeshua, God’s only Son was birthed/begotten (made of a woman – Galatians 4:4) and was made like any human in every way (in all things -Hebrews 2:17) and being such we are his brethren.

(Galatians 4:4) – But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

(Hebrews 2:17) – Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Furthermore, Christ had to have come after Adam. The Bible makes this very clear:

(1 Corinthians 15:45-47) – And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

For Yeshua to be both “the last Adam” and the “second man” he cannot have existed before Adam without making nonsense out of this scripture.

The idea that human beings are pre-existent spirits imprisoned in bodies is called Gnostic.

The rule of scripture for human beings sets forth the following order:

(1 Corinthians 15:46) – Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Just as Yeshua first bore the image of the earthly (a natural human body) and then at his resurrection was given a spiritual body (a glorified human body that is incorruptible) – so shall we!

To reverse the effects of what Adam had done, Yeshua was made the equivalent of Adam before Adam sinned (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6). In doing this, Yeshua, by his obedience became sinless, never once falling short of the glory of his God, and by his overcoming all temptation to sin, thereby condemned sin, and through this means his God and Father could be found just, and yet at the same time the justifier of the sinner. (Romans 3:23, 26; Romans 8:3, 32, 33; John 16:33; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 4:15; Revelation 3:21)

But we have exalted Yeshua (a man) to the glory that belongs solely to the Most High (God), which in effect meant that for Adam (a man) to have obeyed the Most High (God), Adam would have needed to have been the Most High. [For if Jesus was God, then it was God who was sinless not man]

Yeshua pre-existed (as did you and I) only in the plan of God, in his counsel and foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 30) because:

(Acts 15:18) – Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
------------

This provides me some understanding of the 'last Adam' per scripture.

There will be no other human beings made or created by the Father for our salvation, it is all done, the last Adam has already come.

Jesus was conceived and born, though a miraculous conception, created. The Father said on this day I will call you my Son. So physically Jesus was created. But His spirit pre-existed with the Father before time. He said before Abraham, I Am. The Pharisees knew exactly what He was implying which they replied to by saying, He was claiming Himself equal to God - considered blashame to them. This was the last straw for them that led to their plan to crucify Him. But that was God's plan all along, His sacrifice for mankind.
That "I Am" declaration was His introduction that began long ago. You see the pre-incarnate Christ is YHWH. He spoke to Moses and His chosen people throughout their history. In Exodus 3:14, He introduced Himself as "I Am", the Gid of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob. That was a brief introduction that would be layer fulfilled in Christ who became flesh and dwelt among us. In the book if John, His deity is revealed. In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word. God became flesh and dwelt among us. How can you not understanding what scripture clearly states? He filled in that introduction He g Ave to Moses with many more details:
I AM HE
I AM THE RESSURRECTION AND THE LIFE
I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD
I AM THE DOOR
I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE
I AM THE VINE
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE

Ponder on everyone of those claims. A mere man, prophet or angel could not make them.
We look to Him in order to receive God. He is the path to God, because He is God.
What do you think "in Christ" means? It means we are in God. We are ( that is most of us) baptized not only in the name of the Father, but also in the name of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
None of the prophets ever made claims like Jesus did. We are to relate to God and Jesus was the exact expression and illumination of God in the flesh. Having a relationship with Jesus is the same as saying we have a relationship with God.
He wasn't just a man but was also a Spiritual Being who was previously glorified with the Father prior to His birth.
Truth means reality, what is real. In Him all things consist (are held together). That means every atom in the universe. Col. 1:16,17 confirms this.
Jesus is the life. Not just physical life, but spiritual life. He has the power to resurrect 2.6 Christians (or whatever 1/3 of the population of the planet is at His return) as He did himself. Believing in Him holds the promise of eternal life. That equates with believing in God.
"I and the Father are One." He is saying that He is God. A mere man cannot make that claim. He wasn't just saying He was one with God's purpose.
"All authority in heaven and on earth is given to Me". His glory was returned to Him after His death, resurrection and ascension. Only God can have that power. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.

Wake up!

 

[JustMe]

Jesus was conceived and born, though a miraculous conception, created. The Father said on this day I will call you my Son. So physically Jesus was created. But His spirit pre-existed with the Father before time. He said before Abraham, I Am. The Pharisees knew exactly what He was implying which they replied to by saying, He was claiming Himself equal to God - considered blashame to them. This was the last straw for them that led to their plan to crucify Him. But that was God's plan all along, His sacrifice for mankind.
That "I Am" declaration was His introduction that began long ago. You see the pre-incarnate Christ is YHWH. He spoke to Moses and His chosen people throughout their history. In Exodus 3:14, He introduced Himself as "I Am", the Gid of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob. That was a brief introduction that would be layer fulfilled in Christ who became flesh and dwelt among us. In the book if John, His deity is revealed. In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word. God became flesh and dwelt among us. How can you not understanding what scripture clearly states? He filled in that introduction He g Ave to Moses with many more details:
I AM HE
I AM THE RESSURRECTION AND THE LIFE
I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD
I AM THE DOOR
I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE
I AM THE VINE
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE

Ponder on everyone of those claims. A mere man, prophet or angel could not make them.
We look to Him in order to receive God. He is the path to God, because He is God.
What do you think "in Christ" means? It means we are in God. We are ( that is most of us) baptized not only in the name of the Father, but also in the name of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
None of the prophets ever made claims like Jesus did. We are to relate to God and Jesus was the exact expression and illumination of God in the flesh. Having a relationship with Jesus is the same as saying we have a relationship with God.
He wasn't just a man but was also a Spiritual Being who was previously glorified with the Father prior to His birth.
Truth means reality, what is real. In Him all things consist (are held together). That means every atom in the universe. Col. 1:16,17 confirms this.
Jesus is the life. Not just physical life, but spiritual life. He has the power to resurrect 2.6 Christians (or whatever 1/3 of the population of the planet is at His return) as He did himself. Believing in Him holds the promise of eternal life. That equates with believing in God.
"I and the Father are One." He is saying that He is God. A mere man cannot make that claim. He wasn't just saying He was one with God's purpose.
"All authority in heaven and on earth is given to Me". His glory was returned to Him after His death, resurrection and ascension. Only God can have that power. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.

Wake up!

I see you cannot stay on topic. The other support you give here is not relevant at this time, and some of it may intersect this 'last Adam' topic if all these topics are studied first. That's how we can do a more thorough coverage of scripture and make more pronounced conclusions. It takes patience and time.

 

[GodsGrace]

A translation that they put His back in there.
Just so you know Yahweh's name is not in the Septuagint.

Right.
Yahweh is God.
Jehovah (an incorrect name) is still God.
LORD is God
Lord is God
Adonai is God.
Almighty is God
Father is God

It's all the same God GH.

 

[Wrangler]

LORD is God
Lord is God

Nope. Only capital refers to God. There are dozens of lords in Scripture but only one true God, who we relate to as Father. At least, that's what Christ says. But what does he know, right?

For the record and for advanced Bible students, there are also many lowercase gods in Scripture. Some years ago, Psalm 82:6 was the verse of the year for me. Our lord used it to defend himself. In the CEV translation it reads:
“I, the Most High God, say
that all of you are gods.

These two words - lord and god - are theologically charged. Yet, in context, they often denote respect (like sir) or acknowledging one's authority. Who is "all" in the verse above that are gods? It is all who have authority. God-given authority. Authority given by the Most High God.

And it is a point of logical inference that the only reason to use the expression "Most High God" is to distinguish this person from other gods.

 

[NayborBear]

This idea is something @Matthias subscribes to and got me to buy into as well. There is a term for it. Perhaps he can remind us what the term is?

Anyway, the concept behind this word is that like your carpet example, God's plan is unfolding and certain things exist only in his mind while other things are physically or materially manifest. It's kind of like a debate I had with a friend decades ago. Does Rumpelstiltskin exist? Yes, he exists as a fictional character - a product only of the mind. His existence is not a metaphysical reality but a fictional reality. The same with God's plans and ideas including his plan of salvation before his Spirit conceived his son in a 1st century Jewish woman.

I do like the dual sense of conceive: idea and beginning of life, including the beginning of the life of a 1st century Jewish carpenter named Jesus that we've read so much about.

From what Jesus Christ of Nazareth was saying about "Yah-uh-'Vay's" foretelling His coming (being sent) throughout the O.T. (which "hints" about the "Order of Melchizedek-Heb. 1:9. and a little earlier, AND, later in Psalms 110:4) The Hierarchy of the "then" Priesthood of God's Temple couldn't "grasp" it! Much like those of "Modern Churchianity" are unable in their "grasping" these days.
Meaning?: "Those that don't learn from HIStory?" "Are condemned to repeat it!" What "man" doesn't see? Is just how wide the implications and scope of that ignorance entails.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I see you cannot stay on topic. The other support you give here is not relevant at this time, and some of it may intersect this 'last Adam' topic if all these topics are studied first. That's how we can do a more thorough coverage of scripture and make more pronounced conclusions. It takes patience and time.

Your idea of a thorough study is blurred by blindness, likened to the Pharesees who also viewed Christ as a mere man and not God. What did Christ say to them?? You must be born again to have spiritual discernment >> baptized by the Holy Spirit, "in Christ" to possess it. You need to pray for the Holy Spirit. Go to a spirit-filled church and let the Pastor and/or Elders lay hands on you and pray to receive HIM! Otherwise, when the last trumpet blows, you'll be left behind. You will see Christ coming in the clouds in His glory - then you'll know ... then you'll wake up. It will be tough ... just don't take the Mark of the Beast in order to buy food or work ... or else.

 

[NayborBear]

All you can do is insult.
It's your method of operation.

I will not be leaving this thread.

I will remain here stating that you are posting heresy.

And, BTW, try reading post no. 197.


Jesus is YAHWEH.
Is God the First and the Last?
Is Jesus the Alpha and the Omega?

See JustMe.
Father and Son ARE THE SAME.

I'm sorry/(not sorry), but I am more than amused at your remark claiming that Jesus of Nazareth AND "Yah'-uh-'Vay" are the SAME, in one breath, and then "claim" you are a "Christian?" Thus "denying" the Trinity that is one of THEE major tenets, if not THEE major tenet of the Christian faith?
Here: Allow me, if you will, in showing you THEE major "false allegations, or blinders, or fallacy" "churchianity" has done with the words of God that came from Christ's lips.
John 14:9-John 14:6
Hence: If one cannot "discern" THIS MAJOR difference between Father AND Son?
Then I, and others like me are NOT the problem!
You and ones' LIKE yourself (=churchianity) ARE!
BeCAUSE of the DELIBERATE AMBIGUOUSNESS, LED by the "spirit of antichrist"( 1 John 4) which HAS so infiltrated "man", and so also, Christ's Church?
Is the reason/s for much "spirited discussion/s", and futile attempts, by some of us who have such discernment in the "Government of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light" in a dissuasion, or a rethinking in "matters of faith" by those who have been "locked in" by such "traditions" of man, and Church, so as to cause the Word of God in becoming "void" to not only themselves, but to every one they "con" into accepting these "tenets of faith" put forth by churchianitiists!

 

[Wrangler]

Christ as a mere man and not God.

Ever read Revelation 1:1? The resurrected Jesus, in heaven, sitting on God's throne is STILL not God.

In Rev 3:12 Jesus refers to his God 4 x in one sentence. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ever read Revelation 1:1? The resurrected Jesus, in heaven, sitting on God's throne is STILL not God.

In Rev 3:12 Jesus refers to his God 4 x in one sentence. Does it make sense to you that God has a God?

Our Father in Heaven says this to His Son:
"But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." HEB. 1:8

THE Father refers to the Son as God - that's good enough for me.

Yes, it makes sense to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry/(not sorry), but I am more than amused at your remark claiming that Jesus of Nazareth AND "Yah'-uh-'Vay" are the SAME, in one breath, and then "claim" you are a "Christian?" Thus "denying" the Trinity that is one of THEE major tenets, if not THEE major tenet of the Christian faith?
Here: Allow me, if you will, in showing you THEE major "false allegations, or blinders, or fallacy" "churchianity" has done with the words of God that came from Christ's lips.
John 14:9-John 14:6
Hence: If one cannot "discern" THIS MAJOR difference between Father AND Son?
Then I, and others like me are NOT the problem!
You and ones' LIKE yourself (=churchianity) ARE!
BeCAUSE of the DELIBERATE AMBIGUOUSNESS, LED by the "spirit of antichrist"( 1 John 4) which HAS so infiltrated "man", and so also, Christ's Church?
Is the reason/s for much "spirited discussion/s", and futile attempts, by some of us who have such discernment in the "Government of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light" in a dissuasion, or a rethinking in "matters of faith" by those who have been "locked in" by such "traditions" of man, and Church, so as to cause the Word of God in becoming "void" to not only themselves, but to every one they "con" into accepting these "tenets of faith" put forth by churchianitiists!

Nothing wrong with the church.

Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18
18 And I also say to you that you are [a]Peter, and upon this [b]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.


Jesus meant to build His church...

The problem is that some 200 years ago some decided to change the Christian religion:
THE JW
THE CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS
ADOPTIONISTS

and any other cult that does not believe that Jesus is God.

No need to rethink Christianity.
It is already established.

1 Timothy 4:1
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


Tradition was also held in high esteem by the writers of the NT:


2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


1 Corinthians 11:2
2Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.



Now let's see what Paul thought about HUMAN traditions - which are begun by those that do NOT follow the church and Christianity but instead begin their own religion:


Colossians 2:8
8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.


I would suggest that we follow CHRIST
and not MEN.

Men like:

MUHAMMAD
JOSEPH SMITH
CHARLES RUSSELL
ELLEN WHITE
JOHN CALVIN
etc.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus was conceived and born, though a miraculous conception, created. The Father said on this day I will call you my Son. So physically Jesus was created. But His spirit pre-existed with the Father before time. He said before Abraham, I Am.

His pre-eminence existed before time.

Colossians 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

This is the issue dak is having also.

The apostles understood that Christ existed first in the mind and purpose (Logos) of God from the beginning, and that at the appointed time he was born of a woman and born under the Law.

Yahweh has no beginning, and He cannot die, two fundamental realities that many Christians struggle to reconcile.

 

[GodsGrace]

His pre-eminence existed before time.

Colossians 1:18 “And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

This is the issue dak is having also.

The apostles understood that Christ existed first in the mind and purpose (Logos) of God from the beginning, and that at the appointed time he was born of a woman and born under the Law.

Yahweh has no beginning, and He cannot die, two fundamental realities that many Christians struggle to reconcile.

If Jesus existed in the mind and purpose (Logos) of God from the "beginning"....
didn't the 2nd Person of the Trinity always exist? (as the Logos in John 1:1)

Isn't the reconciling done?

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe Jesus was once a regular person like us but lived in another world. After going to Heaven Jesus was permitted to engage in creation and then created us with the knowledge that he would have to do everything that he did.

Maybe you and I will one day create a world and people to inhabit it and then go into it to be like Jesus.

Acts 20:28-30
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.


2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached,


Repenting,,,
You should read the bible or go to a Christian church where you could learn where Jesus comes from.
Unless you're just kidding, of course.
You're making a movie...but Jesus was real and He died for us all.

 

[Taken]

Yes, the future Son of God was created,…

I disagree with that narrative.

* God purposed in Himself;
For:

* Gods Word, Truth, to come forth out from God Mouth;
To be and:

* was Sent to a willing Human Womb;
Remain there for approx 9 months:

* was Delivered forth from that Humans Womb;
* in a body God Prepared:

To Fulfill a Promise God;
Gave to His People ISRAEL.

* God exercised His own Power and Authority;
To Name, To Title, the male, revealed Delivered forth, from said womb.

(FYI) the same power and authority human men exercise, to Name and Title their offspring that is delivered forth from their seed.

God Created a Son?
No God Revealed a fulfillment of His Promise.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hiddenthings]

If Jesus existed in the mind and purpose (Logos) of God from the "beginning"....
didn't the 2nd Person of the Trinity always exist? (as the Logos in John 1:1)

Isn't the reconciling done?

A number of issues present if Christ pre-existed.

1. Only one who was fully human could serve as an acceptable sacrifice to atone for the sins of other humans.
2. Exaltation is meaningless if Christ already possessed divine authority, the Name, and a heavenly throne, true reward requires that these be granted, not assumed.
3. High priests are taken from among men; this is why Paul emphasizes that it is the man Christ Jesus who serves as mediator.
4. If Christ received (granted) eternal life from God his Father, this necessarily implies that he did not previously possess it, which in turn supports points 1 and 3.

Now if Christ being one of us in nature obeyed to the death all that is written about him in terms of what he "became" makes perfect sense and is logical. The Trinity is totally illogical on all these points which the Apostles clearly teach about the promised Messiah.

 

[GodsGrace]

A number of issues present if Christ pre-existed.

Must leave after this, but please reply for tomorrow.

1. Only one who was fully human could serve as an acceptable sacrifice to atone for the sins of other humans.

Agreed.
Jesus had two natures:
Human/Divine
It's called the hypostatic union...this was an attempt by the early church to explain this "person" Jesus who seemed to be both human and divine.

BTW,,,The Savior also had to be God to bridge the gap between man and God.
He had to be both God and man.

A mere man could not pay for the sins of the whole world.

1. Exaltation is meaningless if Christ already possessed divine authority, the Name, and a heavenly throne, true reward requires that these be granted, not assumed.

I don't understand.
I would have thought that you would make the opposite argument.
Jesus, as a man, was given authority...
when a man He was, for example, not omnipresent, as He was as the 2nd Person of the Trinity,,, as the Logos of God.

1. High priests are taken from among men; this is why Paul emphasizes that it is the man Christ Jesus who serves as mediator.

In fact, Jesus was a Priest. He is our High Priest, right? Hebrews.
Jesus is:
A PROPHET
A PRIEST
A KING

1. If Christ received (granted) eternal life from God his Father, this necessarily implies that he did not previously possess it, which in turn supports points 1 and 3.

What do you mean by: JESUS WAS GRANTED ETERNAL LIFE?

Jesus IS eternal life.
I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.

Now if Christ being one of us in nature obeyed to the death all that is written about him in terms of what he "became" makes perfect sense and is logical. The Trinity is totallu illogical on all these points which the Apostles clearly teach about the promised Messiah.

Please post some scripture supporting what you're saying here:

The Trinity is totallu illogical on all these points which the Apostles clearly teach about the promised Messiah.

WHAT did the Apostles teach that is clearly illogical re the Trinity?

'night

 

[Wrangler]

Our Father in Heaven says this to His Son:
"But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." HEB. 1:8

Obviously, you are introducing a verse not under discussion and reading something into Heb 1:8 - and ignoring the preceding verses - as well as disregarding my question of Revelation.

Your throne, of God (your father) is forever and ever. Not sure what you are reading into that. But the preceding verses deserve examination:
1 God, having spoken from old time to our ancestorsa through the prophets in many parts and in many ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He has given form to the ages,
3 who is the reflection of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature, and is upholding all things by his powerful word. After he had accomplished the cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did he say at any time, You are my Son; today I have become your Father?b And again, I will be to him a Father, and he will be to me a Son?

To re-iterate my Revelation questions:

• Doesn't Rev 1:1 say explicitly that God gave Jesus the revelation?
• And doesn't Rev 3:12 mention Jesus referring to his God 4 x?