Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

More dishonesty..
Changing the context of the discussion again.

See post no. 881

 

[Beebster]

Just want everyone reading along to know that we get JUDGED at the time of our death.
If universalism is correct
JUDGEMENT IS NOT NECESSARY since we will all be saved.

Completely false.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. (Heb 9:27)

The fact is, we must all die and be judged. Either now in this age or later in the age to follow.

 

[GodsGrace]

What you said was:

GodsGrace:
God's word creates.
NOT the spoken word.

You conveniently removed "NOT the spoken word." after you were proven wrong.

More dishonesty on your part.

See post no. 881

 

[GodsGrace]

But that's not what you said is it?

Here's what you said:

GodsGrace:
:Sir,,,there are conditions to being saved.
Conditions you most probably do not accept."

I'm starting to think you're a dishonest person.

I stand by what I said.

But you REALLY should read post no. 881

 

[GodsGrace]

And a few paragraphs later you say:

Perhaps if you are honest moving forward "some new Christian reading along" might actually believe you.

Hmmm.
Guess you don't know about sarcasm.

See post 881

 

[GodsGrace]

Completely false.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. (Heb 9:27)

The fact is, we must all die and be judged. Either now in this age or later in the age to follow.

Since you like to keep your belief system, which is most probably not biblical,
a mystery....

This ends our conversation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I apply your definition "Begotten: To come forth from,,,To be generated from,,, (biblical language)" to the narrative of Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. So I do not know what you are suggesting by your next comments:

If you POST the scriptures you've MENTIONED,
I'll be very happy to reply to them.
Unfortunately, I don't have the NT memorized.

Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 describe the begettal of the human Jesus, the Son of God because God the Father is the father and the son of Mary as his mother. This describes how Jesus came forth and was generated.

I do believe I agree with that.
But do you agree that the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed BEFORE that Person was generated in the way you describe?

The word "Christian" first occurs in Acts 11:26 and is applied to the warm fellowship of the Jews and Gentiles of Antioch, who shared the teaching of Barnabas and Paul.

Kind regards
Trevor

That's when the word Christian was first used.
You again did not POST the scripture you mentioned so I will have to look it up:


Acts 11:26
26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they [a]met with the church and taught [b]considerable numbers of people; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Now look Trevor:
For a whole year Barnabas and Peter stayed in Antioch to teach the new christians.

I'm sure there was a lot of fellowship but there's was a lot of teaching too.

If we go back to Acts 10:42-43 we read that they taught that Jesus is the one who was approved by God as judge of the living and the dead. Who can judge but God Himself?

Also that it was jesus...the one of whom all the prophets bore witness.
This is becasuse Jesus fulfilled many of the OT prophecies.

And all who believe in Him will receive forgiveness of sins.
Only God can forgive sins.

And interesting that this comes after the stoning of stephen.
Why was stephen stoned?
This was done when Stephen cried out to his accusers:
BEHOLD, I SEE THE HEAVENS OPENED UP AND THE SON OF MAN STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

They covered their ears because they knew Stephen was blaspheming by calling Jesus the Son of Man (Daniel 7)...they knew what this implied.

And so they stoned Stephen for blasphemy

Here is the scripture:


Acts 10:42.43
42 And He ordered us to [a]preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43 All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”


Luke 24:25-27 Jesus explains how HE fulfilled scripture in the OT.
25 And then He said to them, “[a]You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary for the [b]Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?”
27 Then beginning [c]with Moses and [d]with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.


The stoning of Stephen for blasphemy:
Stephen speaking:

Acts 7:51-60
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
52 "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.
55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.
58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I do believe I agree with that.

But many Trinitarians do not apply "only begotten of the Father" to this narrative.

But do you agree that the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed BEFORE that Person was generated in the way you describe?

No.

Why was stephen stoned?
This was done when Stephen cried out to his accusers:
BEHOLD, I SEE THE HEAVENS OPENED UP AND THE SON OF MAN STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

Yes, Stephen saw a vision of Jesus similar to the prophecy of Psalm 110:1 which teaches that Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne Revelation 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

But many Trinitarians do not apply "only begotten of the Father" to this narrative.

No.

Then you believe that the 2nd Person of the Trinity was created.
That is not a Christian belief.

Who was Jesus anyway?
Was He just a man?
Did He come into existance at His birth as Jesus?

Then WHAT became flesh in John 1:14 which is referring to John 1:1?

John 1:1, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Yes, Stephen saw a vision of Jesus similar to the prophecy of Psalm 110:1 which teaches that Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne Revelation 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

Actually THE SON OF MAN is referring to:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


Revelation 1:13
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[a] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.


Revelation 14:14
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.


Revelation is referring to Jesus...The Son of Man.

 

[Lambano]

I wouldn't attempt to use Hebrews to show anything except that JESUS IS GOD.

The original quote is from Psalm 2, which Paul also quotes in the synagogue in Antioch Pisidia to show that Jesus is the Son of God (Acts 13:33).

I guess poetry is good for doctrine after all.

 

[GodsGrace]

The original quote is from Psalm 2, which Paul also quotes in the synagogue in Antioch Pisidia to show that Jesus is the Son of God (Acts 13:33).

I guess poetry is good for doctrine after all.

LOL
No.
It's using Psalm 2 to SUPPORT the fact that Jesus is God.

Does the writer of Psalm believe that Jesus is God?
See. It's the other way around.
The doctrine comes first...
it is PROVEN by OT poetic scripture.

 

[Beebster]

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach

Some folks think that by changing the word "specially" to the word "especially" somehow makes salvation exclusive.
It does not.

Either way God is the Saviour off ALL men.

Believers are "specially saved" as in they are the those of the first resurrection and they have a purpose.
That purpose is to judge the rest of humanity and to bring them to salvation.

The MANY will not be chosen for this task because they do not command and teach these things.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Then you believe that the 2nd Person of the Trinity was created.
That is not a Christian belief.

There is no such entity. You are using your man made definition of Christian.

Who was Jesus anyway? Was He just a man?

He was a unique man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Did He come into existance at His birth as Jesus?

Yes, at his conception and birth. He was begotten of the Father.

Then WHAT became flesh in John 1:14 which is referring to John 1:1?

The LOGOS are the thoughts, plans, purpose of God that came into fruition when the only begotten of God was conceived, born, grew and ministered and John the Apostle beheld his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth.

Actually THE SON OF MAN is referring to: Daniel 7:13-14

The Son of Man goes back firstly to Psalm 8:4-6, Psalm 80:17, the descendant of Adam who was also begotten by God, the firstborn of the New Creation, in whom God's Logos, plan and purpose in creation has been and will be fulfilled.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lambano]

Then you believe that the 2nd Person of the Trinity was created.
That is not a Christian belief.

How about if someone believes the Son was "begotten of the Father, not created"? (The language comes directly from the Nicene creed.)

 

[Beebster]

Hi TrevorHL, nice to meet you.

He was a unique man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

I believe Jesus Christ was more than a unique man. I do believe he is God just not God the Father.
Everything was and is created through Christ.
He is the beginning of God's creation (before Adam).
He was created and is still being created.
And, no I am NOT a trinitarian.

Peace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

There is no such entity. You are using your man made definition of Christian.

Here's the problem Trevor....
You claim to be Christian but do not adhere to Christian beliefs.
You can believe what you want to about Jesus
BUT
You cannot change the nature of Jesus and the teachings of the gospel
and still claim to be Christian.

Jesus said:

John 8:24
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Who is Jesus?

Jesus asked the Apostles AND WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?

Matthew 16:15
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”


The New Testament warns us against believing in a false God:


2 Corinthians 11:4
4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.


A false Jesus will have no power to save.

And a false Jesus is NOT the Christian Jesus.

The Jesus Christians believe in is GOD Himself and has the power to save.


Note:

Titus 3:4-6
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,


Verse 4 states that GOD OUR SAVIOR APPEARED.

Verse 6 states JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR.

So God appeared.
In the Person of Jesus Christ.

God has never been seen...
but Jesus said:


John 14:9
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’

Whoever has seen the Son has seen the Father.
He has seen GOD.

He was a unique man, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

No sir. NOT by birth.
Please explain how the above verses fail to show that JESUS IS GOD.

God cannot be created.
One of the attributes of God is that He is eternal.

Yes, at his conception and birth. He was begotten of the Father.

The Son of God always existed.

God cannot be created and Jesus is God.
You are trusting in something or someone that is not recognized in the Christian religion.

The LOGOS are the thoughts, plans, purpose of God that came into fruition when the only begotten of God was conceived, born, grew and ministered and John the Apostle beheld his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth.

So did God NOT have His thoughts, plans, purpose UNTIL the Son was born?
God ALWAYS had His thoughts, plans and purpose...
God always had the Logos.

The Son of Man goes back firstly to Psalm 8:4-6,

In Psalm 8:4 the son of man means literally mankind.
It is NOT mankind that will be coming in the clouds....it will be Jesus as in Daniel 7:13-14

Psalm 80:17,

It is referring to David's son or Israel as a community but is also a prophetic reference to Jesus.

I used Daniel 7 because it specifically is referring to one that will come in the clouds...which will be Jesus.

We must distinguish between son of man as a human being
and
Son of Man as Jesus as prophecied.


Matthew 24:30
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[b]


Revelation 1:7
7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[a]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[b]
So shall it be! Amen.

the descendant of Adam who was also begotten by God, the firstborn of the New Creation, in whom God's Logos, plan and purpose in creation has been and will be fulfilled.

Kind regards
Trevor

Adam was not begotten.
Adam was created.
Adam was never a PART OF GOD that was generated at some point.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Here's the problem Trevor....
You claim to be Christian but do not adhere to Christian beliefs.

The Trinity is not the teaching of Barnabas and Paul. Again, what you have posted is your estimate of the Trinity. Most of what you state could be easily answered if I wanted to spend the time and effort, but I have mentioned sufficient.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Wrangler]

See. It's the other way around.
The doctrine comes first...

Then where does the doctrine come from if not the revealed word of God through the prophets?

 

[soberxp]

.

Adam was not begotten.
Adam was created.
Adam was never a PART OF GOD that was generated at some point.

God made man in his own image.
Jesus Christ is the second Adam and the image of God.
Jesus Christ is the image of God, and you think that he is God, but he is the image of God made by God.

 

[GodsGrace]

God made man in his own image.
Jesus Christ is the second Adam and the image of God.
Jesus Christ is the image of God, and you think that he is God, but he is the image of God made by God.

Man was made in the image of God.
Does this mean that we are like Jesus?
Can we heal persons?
Forgive their sins?

Does being made in the image of God mean that we have the nature of God?