Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

Then where does the doctrine come from if not the revealed word of God through the prophets?

WHICH doctrine Wranger?

 

[Wrangler]

WHICH doctrine Wranger?

Any doctrine. You said doctrine comes before Scripture. So, I asked where does this doctrine come from?

 

[GodsGrace]

Any doctrine. You said doctrine comes before Scripture. So, I asked where does this doctrine come from?

I did NOT say that a doctrine comes before scripture.
Go back and read.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then where does the doctrine come from if not the revealed word of God through the prophets?

Doctrine comes from the revealed word of God.

This convo has gone a little awry.
It does NOT come from poetic language in the OT.
THAT language is used to SUPPORT a doctrine,
not to create it.

 

[Wrangler]

I did NOT say that a doctrine comes before scripture.
Go back and read.

I did.

See. It's the other way around.
The doctrine comes first...

 

[GodsGrace]

I did.

Whateva Wrangler.
I don't have the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

The Trinity is not the teaching of Barnabas and Paul. Again, what you have posted is your estimate of the Trinity. Most of what you state could be easily answered if I wanted to spend the time and effort, but I have mentioned sufficient.

Kind regards
Trevor

You're very confused to say the least.

The APOSTLES taught that Jesus is God.

I do not make up doctrine...
I only FOLLOW Christian doctrine.

And you are not responding to the corrections I made to your understanding of the verse you had posted.

What you mention is not Christian theology. What you mention is NOT sufficient.
I asked you what defines a Christian and you answered something about fellowship.

Is that what Jesus died for?
I could have fellowship at the pizza parlor on Friday evening.

And it's not what I state Trevor.
Maybe some on these Forums state what THEY believe to be doctrine...
I just state the NT and what the Apostles taught.

I do not make doctrine...as some seem to think that THEY make Christian doctrine as if it
didn't already exist.

It didn't take me much time to put together my post because the truth is simple.
Not too much needed.

It's much more difficult when scripture is twisted to make it say what a person wants it to say.
Auntie Jane does this too. Pages and pages of heresy.

So.
OK...believe what you will.
Just get the title Christian removed from under your avatar.

 

[Wick Stick]

I find it problematic that a person can call themselves a Christian and yet believe that Jesus is not God,,,
which, basically, would be idolatry...

And why would anyone want to follow a man who thought He was God?

So why do we debate the Trinity on these forums?

The Trinity and the Belief in the Divinity of Jesus Christ are two different things. Seems like the opening post confutes them.

There are plenty of non-Trinitarians who believe Jesus is God

 

[GodsGrace]

The Trinity and the Belief in the Divinity of Jesus Christ are two different things. Seems like the opening post confutes them.

There are plenty of non-Trinitarians who believe Jesus is God

The Trinity explains how/why Jesus is God.

How can one be a non-trinitarian and still believe Jesus is God??

We have a member on here that believes that Father is God and Son is God and that makes two Gods.
This is not Christianity.

Any other examples??

 

[Wick Stick]

The Trinity explains how/why Jesus is God.

How can one be a non-trinitarian and still believe Jesus is God??

I can think of a couple ways off the top of my head.

One could be a binitarian. This works just like Trinitarian belief, except that it holds that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father, and not a separate person.

One could be an emanationist. In this view, Father refers to God in His capacity as ruler of the Heavens above, while Jesus refers to God by His earthly avatar here below. As above, so below.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can think of a couple ways off the top of my head.

One could be a binitarian. This works just like Trinitarian belief, except that it holds that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father, and not a separate person.

I know about this.
The NT portrays Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Persons.
The Holy Spirit being the spirit of God would work except for the fact that He is portrayed as a He.

This is from Gemini...it's quick and it's a really good explanation:

Key Aspects of the Holy Spirit's Personhood:

• Attributes of a Person: The Holy Spirit has a mind, can be grieved, and makes decisions (1 Corinthians 2:10–11, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Corinthians 12:7–11).
• Actions of a Person: He teaches, commands, speaks, and testifies (John 14:26, Acts 13:2, 16:6-7).
• Relational Nature: The Spirit can be lied to, insulted, and obeyed, indicating a personal relationship with believers (Acts 5:3-4, Hebrews 10:29).
• Scriptural Evidence: While the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is neuter, the New Testament often uses masculine pronouns ("He") to emphasize His personality (John 16:13-14).

Although some traditions, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, view the Holy Spirit as God's active force or energy rather than a distinct person, traditional Christian theology affirms the Holy Spirit is a divine, personal agent active in the world and within believers.

One could be an emanationist. In this view, Father refers to God in His capacity as ruler of the Heavens above, while Jesus refers to God by His earthly avatar here below. As above, so below.

Never heard of this.
Do they believe Jesus always existed?
Or that He was created for this purpose?
And I'd love to see the verses that support this idea.

I've just come to the conclusion (pretty recently) that we cannot allow non-believers of the Christian faith (and I mean those that call themselves Christian) to destroy the faith that so many died for in horrible ways in the early church.

 

[soberxp]

Man was made in the image of God.
Does this mean that we are like Jesus?
Can we heal persons?
Forgive their sins?

Man was Made in the image of God before the serpent said something to Eve, then they not obey the word of God, and became not the image of God as we are now.

Only Jesus Christ is the only one image of God than human beings. He Only obey the will of God.

Does being made in the image of God mean that we have the nature of God?

Our nature of Satan not God.....human is not the image of God anymore, but image of Satan.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

You're very confused to say the least.
The APOSTLES taught that Jesus is God.
I do not make up doctrine...
I only FOLLOW Christian doctrine.

Perhaps I am getting tired of your continual claim that the Trinity is Christian doctrine, and here Apostolic doctrine and those that do not accept this are not "Christian".

And you are not responding to the corrections I made to your understanding of the verse you had posted.

We have discussed or stated many Scriptures and I am not sure which of the many you are speaking about. Even when I do answer some of your references, and with an answer that I consider more than acceptable, you do not respond directly to my answer, but move on with another reference.

Take for example your following reference.

Why was stephen stoned?
This was done when Stephen cried out to his accusers:
BEHOLD, I SEE THE HEAVENS OPENED UP AND THE SON OF MAN STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

Do you still believe that this proves that the APOSTLES (and Stephen) taught that Jesus is God?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Man was Made in the image of God before the serpent said something to Eve, then they not obey the word of God, and became not the image of God as we are now.

Only Jesus Christ is the only one image of God than human beings. He Only obey the will of God.


Our nature of Satan not God.....human is not the image of God anymore, but image of Satan.

You'll have to explain what it means to be made in the image of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Perhaps I am getting tired of your continual claim that the Trinity is Christian doctrine, and here Apostolic doctrine and those that do not accept this are not "Christian".

You might be getting tired of it Trevor...and I'm more tired of it than you are...
but guess what?
The Trinity IS a Christian doctrine -whether YOU care to accept it or not.

And, yes sir, those that do not accept the Trinity cannot be Christian because
Christians believe that Jesus is God.

It's important for you to know that you are NOT following the Christian religion.

We have discussed or stated many Scriptures and I am not sure which of the many you are speaking about. Even when I do answer some of your references, and with an answer that I consider more than acceptable, you do not respond directly to my answer, but move on with another reference.

Oh.
I usually reply DIRECTLY to scripture.
Please do post scripture that proves that Jesus is not God.
I'll be happy to reply.

Take for example your following reference.

Do you still believe that this proves that the APOSTLES (and Stephen) taught that Jesus is God?

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes sir.
I DO accept that the scripture I posted proves that Jesus is God.

I'll be happy to explain it again:

Stephen's killing is a very interesting part of Acts.

We'd have to go back to chapter 5 where an important Pharisee made an interesting comment:

Acts 5:27-39
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,
28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."
29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Gamaliel's Counsel​

33 But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them.
34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.
35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men.
36 "For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
37 "After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.

38 "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."


Peter and John were witnessing about Jesus.
They were imprisoned and told to stop preaching in His name.
They refused and were brought before the council.
Where Gamaliel stated what is in Verses 38-39

Then we move on to chapter 6...the story of Stephen.
Some pagans from different countries told the Council that he was preaching blasphemy.

So Stephen was brought before the Council of the Sanhedrin.


Stephen proceeded to tell of the story of Jesus beginning with Abraham's story.
The Sanhedrin listened calmly.

When did the sanhedrin get mad at stephen?
When he said this:

Acts 7:51-53
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—
53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.

But they still did not stone him.

THIS is when they stoned stephen:
When he said these words:


Acts 7:56
56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


THIS is when they ordered Stephen to be stoned to death.

Because they, being well-versed in the OT, knew that he was saying that Jesus IS THE SON OF MAN....
and the Son of Man was God coming to earth, as in Daniel 7 and Revelation...God coming in the clouds.

And Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of Man.


Mark 2:10
10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man,


Matthew 8:20
20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”


Mark 14:62
62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


and more...

Yes sir.
Jesus is God.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Because they, being well-versed in the OT, knew that he was saying that Jesus IS THE SON OF MAN....
and the Son of Man was God coming to earth, as in Daniel 7 and Revelation...God coming in the clouds.

I suggest that this is where you uniquely superimpose your particular Trinity view on Acts 7 and Daniel 7 and ignore the obvious allusion to Psalm 110:1 which clearly refutes the Trinity. Also Daniel 7 is not the Son of Man coming to earth, but the Son of Man going to heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I suggest that this is where you uniquely superimpose your particular Trinity view on Acts 7 and Daniel 7 and ignore the obvious allusion to Psalm 110:1 which clearly refutes the Trinity. Also Daniel 7 is not the Son of Man coming to earth, but the Son of Man going to heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why not post Psalm 110:1 and show me where I'm wrong on what the church has been teaching for 2 thousand years.

And could you PLEASE stop telling me it's MY view on the Trinity.

The Trinity has been taught from the beginning.

And could you please show how Daniel 7 is someone going UP TO HEAVEN?

Thanks.

 

[Lambano]

 

[GodsGrace]

Reformation forever?
What does it mean?

 

[Wick Stick]

Never heard of [emanationism].
Do they believe Jesus always existed?
Or that He was created for this purpose?

Emanationism holds that Jesus existed in eternity past, but not separately from the Father. At some point, He was... emanated... and that's where the distinction is drawn.

And I'd love to see the verses that support this idea.

John 1, I'm not sure what else.

Anyway, the Catholic church officially condemned emanationism as a heresy in the 1960s. That late date is kind of funny, since the belief has been around since... the 2nd century? Maybe earlier?