Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Grailhunter]

Yes , JESUS the CHRIST does define this .
And yet HIS OWN words
I AM THE FIRST and the LAST
no other angel , no other prophet , no king of israel
EVER DARED to utter such words about himself .
BUT JESUS DID .
SO whether or not one understands the GODHEAD
STOP denying what is written .
AND IT DID NOT say a word or a god .
IT SAID THE WORD and it said WAS GOD . Its not me changing what was written
ITS MEN doing it with wise greek words and etc . They decieve this people.
And of course WE call him THE SON OF GOD . but just dont deny HIS words . leave it alone

I agree except you have to understand the words....
The word God is not specific deity, it is a divine title or position.
For example the Hebrew word for God can be God or god. The same word is used for Yahweh and Pagan gods. For that reason the word God did not appear often in the original Old Testament texts. If it did it usually appeared as Yahweh your God. It appears a lot more in our Bibles because Yahweh's name or YHWH was removed 6,800 times and replaced with the words God or Lord or both.

Now there is a conflict with how many Gods were in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament Yahweh repeatedly said He was the only God and there was no one like Him and He created everything. And in the Old Testament the reference to the Holy Spirit was Yahweh's spirit. In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is a God. The confusion caused by not revealing the name of the Holy Spirit.

And in the New Testament, particularly in John's writings Yeshua is said to exist from the beginning and that He created everything. On this I side with Yahweh and note that Yeshua or the Son of God as a God is not mentioned or that events are not contributed to Him. So I believe that Yahweh was the only God in the Old Testament and He created everything. I have theories on what the New Testament means by Yeshua pre-existing but the scriptures do not explain the contradiction so it is only theories.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who defines orthodox Christianity?
I think Yeshua defined what it was to be a Christian and it was not about a word that is not in the scriptures.

Who defines Christianity?
The very question is problematic.


THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE APOSTLES
THE EARLY CHURCH

They have defined orthodox Christianity.
Certainly Not those that come up with their own theories.

New theories cannot be orthodox precisely because they are NEW.

Don't you believe that there should be a definition for CHRISTIAN?

Some on here are saying that they believe in Jesus but not as God.
Muslims believe in Jesus but not as God.

So what's the difference??

What distinguishes Christianity from other religions??

 

[Grailhunter]

Who defines Christianity?
The very question is problematic.


THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE APOSTLES
THE EARLY CHURCH

They have defined orthodox Christianity.
Certainly Not those that come up with their own theories.

New theories cannot be orthodox precisely because they are NEW.

Don't you believe that there should be a definition for CHRISTIAN?

Some on here are saying that they believe in Jesus but not as God.
Muslims believe in Jesus but not as God.

So what's the difference??

What distinguishes Christianity from other religions??

The Protestants did not think that the Catholics were Christians.
With 30,000 Protestant denominations some Protestant denominations do not recognize other Protestant denominations as Christians and some believe only their beliefs are Christian. It is a slippery slope.

The term Christian came about defining those that believed in Christ. The Jewish-Christian, basically most of the Apostles and the Gentile-Christians from the Apostle Paul's ministry had different beliefs and practices but both believed in Yeshua and were Christian. So I believe that even though their beliefs are different the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and the Protestants are Christians.

From there it is matter of which set of beliefs are correct. As we see on this forum interpretations and asserted interpretations can vary and then you have doctrines that are not necessarily interpretations but are believed over and above scriptures. People as a whole did not have Bibles in their hands until the 16th/17th century and were told by the Catholic Church what to believe and the power of doctrines were elevated over the scriptures. It is not too funny that at one time you could be killed for owning a Bible.

Then the Guttenberg printing press was invented and the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and shortly after they started to fracture into denominations. So mostly again it is about which set of beliefs are more correct or mostly wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones I would question if they are Christians.....more like Yahwists. Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists are Christians, they just got it way wrong. And that is not to say that Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists will not go to Heaven, it is what their beliefs cause them to do that might send them to Hell.

If you believe that Grace is a license to sin and if you preach that to others and cause them to sin that might award you to Hell.

 

[Wrangler]

Who defines Christianity?
The very question is problematic.


THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE APOSTLES
THE EARLY CHURCH

None of these and the question is not problematic at all - once you divest yourself of theologically loading words. Sure, there are authorities like a dictionary but also usage defines a word that eventually gets added to the authoritative reference. Classic example is aint.

Used to be 'aint aint a word,' not in the dictionary. Now it is.

 

[Wrangler]

It is not too funny that at one time you could be killed for owning a Bible.

Control was at risk. Just like we see now from @GodsGrace.

 

[amigo de christo]

The Protestants did not think that the Catholics were Christians.
With 30,000 Protestant denominations some Protestant denominations do not recognize other Protestant denominations as Christians and some believe only their beliefs are Christian. It is a slippery slope.

The term Christian came about defining those that believed in Christ. The Jewish-Christian, basically most of the Apostles and the Gentile-Christians from the Apostle Paul's ministry had different beliefs and practices but both believed in Yeshua and were Christian. So I believe that even though their beliefs are different the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and the Protestants are Christians.

From there it is matter of which set of beliefs are correct. As we see on this forum interpretations and asserted interpretations can vary and then you have doctrines that are not necessarily interpretations but are believed over and above scriptures. People as a whole did not have Bibles in their hands until the 16th/17th century and were told by the Catholic Church what to believe and the power of doctrines were elevated over the scriptures. It is not too funny that at one time you could be killed for owning a Bible.

Then the Guttenberg printing press was invented and the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and shortly after they started to fracture into denominations. So mostly again it is about which set of beliefs are more correct or mostly wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones I would question if they are Christians.....more like Yahwists. Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists are Christians, they just got it way wrong. And that is not to say that Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists will not go to Heaven, it is what their beliefs cause them to do that might send them to Hell.

If you believe that Grace is a license to sin and if you preach that to others and cause them to sin that might award you to Hell.

If you believe that Grace is a license to sin and if you preach that to others and cause them to sin that might award you to Hell.;
There is no might . its will .
Will award you to hell .
For unto he or she who do so , ITS TOTAL PR OOF they NE VER KNEW HIM . And i mean NE VER KNEW HIM .
Any who can preach a gospel of beleif and unbelief ALSO never knew him .
THUS GET every man , woman , child and pets OUT TA that eucmenical realm and RIGHT NOW .
Before unbelief becometh their god of love . I DID warn us . I TRULY did . many through false love
are making unbeleif their god and savoir . I did warn , can none say i did n ot warn .

 

[amigo de christo]

The Protestants did not think that the Catholics were Christians.
With 30,000 Protestant denominations some Protestant denominations do not recognize other Protestant denominations as Christians and some believe only their beliefs are Christian. It is a slippery slope.

The term Christian came about defining those that believed in Christ. The Jewish-Christian, basically most of the Apostles and the Gentile-Christians from the Apostle Paul's ministry had different beliefs and practices but both believed in Yeshua and were Christian. So I believe that even though their beliefs are different the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and the Protestants are Christians.

From there it is matter of which set of beliefs are correct. As we see on this forum interpretations and asserted interpretations can vary and then you have doctrines that are not necessarily interpretations but are believed over and above scriptures. People as a whole did not have Bibles in their hands until the 16th/17th century and were told by the Catholic Church what to believe and the power of doctrines were elevated over the scriptures. It is not too funny that at one time you could be killed for owning a Bible.

Then the Guttenberg printing press was invented and the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and shortly after they started to fracture into denominations. So mostly again it is about which set of beliefs are more correct or mostly wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones I would question if they are Christians.....more like Yahwists. Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists are Christians, they just got it way wrong. And that is not to say that Universalists and OSAS and Calvinists will not go to Heaven, it is what their beliefs cause them to do that might send them to Hell.

If you believe that Grace is a license to sin and if you preach that to others and cause them to sin that might award you to Hell.

Pray and think about this next question my friend . And see if you can solve the riddle .
How is it possible through love to fall in love with the god of unbelief .
Its a real simple answer . Pray . And see what cometh into your mind .
For through love have many fallen IN LOVE with a god of unbelief .
Again pray . I will bring the answer soon . Just wanted to see if perhaps the answer might be revealed to you first .

 

[amigo de christo]

Who defines Christianity?
The very question is problematic.


THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE APOSTLES
THE EARLY CHURCH

They have defined orthodox Christianity.
Certainly Not those that come up with their own theories.

New theories cannot be orthodox precisely because they are NEW.

Don't you believe that there should be a definition for CHRISTIAN?

Some on here are saying that they believe in Jesus but not as God.
Muslims believe in Jesus but not as God.

So what's the difference??

What distinguishes Christianity from other religions??

a riddle of truth has been given .
I want to know if you can solve this riddle . do pray about it .
How it is possible through love to fall in love with a god of sin and unbelief .
Its more simple than you think . Remember we were warned specially by john and by james . that is a hint .

 

[amigo de christo]

Control was at risk. Just like we see now from @GodsGrace.

a riddle of truth has been given .
I want to know if you can solve this riddle . do pray about it .
How it is possible through love to fall in love with a god of sin and unbelief .
Its more simple than you think . Remember we were warned specially by john and by james . that is a hint

 

[Beebster]

Beebster
I've been saying this for 47 pages now.
I'll try again:
If a person does not believe in orthodox Christianity, which includes the Trinity,
they cannot define themselves as Christian.

Which is an opinion, not fact.

If you have a hererodox view of Christianity
your doctrine will NOT line up with Christian teaching -
which is orthodox -
and thus you cannot define yourself as Christian.

Lets try it this way:
All orthodox Christians are Christian, but not all Christians are orthodox.

No such thing as a heterodox Christian.
That would be like being MUSLIM
but not believing in MUHAMMAD.

No, it would be more like a Muslim that believes in Muhammad, but doesn't believe in marrying children.

Sir,
God is show to be plural all throughout the bible.

The definition of plural is not "three."

Since there is only one God....
And Jesus displayed qualities/attributes that only God has,,,
then it had to be explained.
The explanation is the Trinity.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:12)

That's not a trinity. Neither is this:

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? (Mat 10:24-25)

This is a simple concept.

Let's say you have a tummy ache.
You DO have a tummy ache.

You just don't know yet that it's called AN ULCER.

Same.

Until the doctor tells you your ulcer has always been there; that your body didn't create it.
It's an eternal ulcer!

Not so simple anymore is it?

You believe Jesus is God?
Why are we debating?
Do you believe Jesus BECAME God?
Not good enough.

Not good enough to be in your club?
I'm fine with that.

 

[JesusFan]

Who defines Christianity?
The very question is problematic.


THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE APOSTLES
THE EARLY CHURCH

They have defined orthodox Christianity.
Certainly Not those that come up with their own theories.

New theories cannot be orthodox precisely because they are NEW.

Don't you believe that there should be a definition for CHRISTIAN?

Some on here are saying that they believe in Jesus but not as God.
Muslims believe in Jesus but not as God.

So what's the difference??

What distinguishes Christianity from other religions??

true Christianity holds to the trinity

 

[Beebster]

Post no. 924 has BOTH the other member's reply
and my reply.

It explains perfectly why we are not allowed to change ANY
Christian tenet.

Example:
I state that Jesus was God and I believe in the Trinity.
BUT
I do not believe Jesus resurrected or that He died for the sins of the world.

Am I Christian?

Yes.
I would say you are an orthodox Christian.
And no I did not misunderstand your example.

 

[soberxp]

OK
This conversation will end here.

However, you MIGHT be Muslim for all I know.

And the Qur'an was from Muhammad.
Not to change the topic.

It's end where you never answered my post but tell here again and again that is Jesus Christ is the God.

How could that we can be God if Jesus Christ is God ?

 

[Beebster]

It is the Trinitarians who have preached another Jesus and another gospel.

Well said.

 

[Beebster]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 78796

I wonder why John didn't mention that third person?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Do you think I'm Catholic?
Not that there's anything wrong with it.

The reason why I raised the subject of Catholic, is partly because of your earlier statement:

If a person does not believe in orthodox Christianity, which includes the Trinity, they cannot define themselves as Christian.

Even though you have moved away from some of the Catholic beliefs you still endorse them as "Christian" and as such you differ from my position where I would limit the use of the word "Christian" to the Bible teaching that the true Christianity are those that share the fellowship, teaching and practises of Jesus and the Apostles.

Seeing you like to quote from Daniel 7, have you ever considered what or who is the little horn of the fourth beast who persecutes the faithful for 1260 years. I suggest that this is the Papacy who persecuted many faithful, and the reason for some of this, is that these faithful did not accept the authority of the Catholic Church and some of its teaching, and some of these did not accept the Trinity.

Yes, your insistence and judgemental attitude reminds me of this period of time where the Church had power to persecute the faithful. I understand the 1260 years to be from Justinian to the French Revolution, and from Phocas to 1870 when the Papacy lost its Temporal Power.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

true Christianity holds to the trinity

True Christians go by what God says about this in His Word.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

Glad we got this all settled.
This thread can now be closed!

 

[JesusFan]

True Christians go by what God says about this in His Word.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

Glad we got this all settled.
This thread can now be closed! View attachment 78824

One being, God, who eternal exists as 3 Persons

 

[JesusFan]

Yes.
I would say you are an orthodox Christian.
And no I did not misunderstand your example.

Not a christian nor saved, as one must affirm the Cross, and the resurrection

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

One being, God, who eternal exists as 3 Persons

But according to the Lord He is ONE person.

There aren't 3 persons. That's like saying there are three Gods.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Just believe 1 John 5:7

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Do you go around telling people "Hi, my name is JesusFan and I'm 3 persons!"

That's a good way to be taken in to custody and sent to the nut hut!