WWJD with LGBTQ?

[shepherdsword]

What did happen?

A navy seal that transitioned into a female, thought better of it, and transitioned back.

 

[shepherdsword]

St. SteVen said:

Let's say there's a wonderful Christian family in your church.
At some point in adolescence one of their children realizes they are different.
Since an early age they have been attracted to same sex relationships.
Social pressures are pushing them toward opposite sex relationships.
This causes a crisis in the child and in the family.
The church is unsupportive, so they leave the church.

I already answered this. What would I do? I would pray for them in private, preach the gospel to them in public and comfort them with the fact Jesus died for every sin and one can overcome any temptation if they walk with him.

So now I am going to throw the ball back to you...what would you do?

 

[JesusFan]

Right. - LOL
Tell that to a 6'-5" 250 lb female with masculine features.
Or a 5"-2" effeminate male that weighs 98lbs wet.

Would still come back to the biological truth that God only created 2 genders, as even when a man become a woman, still biological has male genetic trits

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, God recognizes two genders, so do people with gender dysphoria.
Problem being, they have both of them.

Only 2 genders

 

[St. SteVen]

Would still come back to the biological truth that God only created 2 genders, as even when a man become a woman, still biological has male genetic trits

What are "male genetic trits"? - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Let's say there's a wonderful Christian family in your church.
At some point in adolescence one of their children realizes they are different.
Since an early age they have been attracted to same sex relationships.
Social pressures are pushing them toward opposite sex relationships.
This causes a crisis in the child and in the family.
The church is unsupportive, so they leave the church.

I already answered this. What would I do? I would pray for them in private, preach the gospel to them in public and comfort them with the fact Jesus died for every sin and one can overcome any temptation if they walk with him.

So now I am going to throw the ball back to you...what would you do?

They are already a wonderful Christian family.
Why are you preaching the gospel to them? They know Jesus died for every sin
and they can overcome any temptation if they walk with him.
This does little for the gender dysphoria crisis they are faced with.

They obviously need counseling for the teen and the family. (parents)
Medical intervention may be needed as well. (hormonal imbalance)
This is the kind of support they need.

 

[Button]

But I don't understand HOW a church could really help anyone.
I've been involved IN the church.
I don't see a mechanism for this help to be offered.

I think that even Christians are at the mercy of society.
I'm sorry to have to say this but I believe it to be true.

Agreed.

But then on the other side we have actual pastors stating that homsosexual ACTIVITY is not sinful.
Not sinful to live with one of the SS.
NOTHING is a sin to them and how they understand scripture...
stating that the very term homos meant something different in OT times.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to making a statement that it's OK to be married and have affairs?
Aren't heteros also held to a standard in the Christian religion?

(and yes I think we need to get back to calling it RELIGION and not FAITH because it's two totally different ideas).

Your first statement is surprising. You don't know how the church can help LGBTQ?

The Gospel Coalition (TGC)

The Gospel Coalition’s mission is to help renew and unify the contemporary church in the ancient gospel.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[St. SteVen]

Your first statement is surprising. You don't know how the church can help LGBTQ?

The Gospel Coalition (TGC)

The Gospel Coalition’s mission is to help renew and unify the contemporary church in the ancient gospel.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

There it is.

1. Make it easy to talk about.​

Pastors as well as church members need to know homosexuality is not just a political issue but a personal one, and that there will likely be some within their own church family for whom it is a painful struggle. When the issue comes up in the life of the church, you must recognize that this is an issue Christians wrestle with too, and the church needs to be ready and equipped to walk alongside such brothers and sisters.

Many Christians still speak about homosexuality in hurtful and pejorative ways. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve heard Christians (even some in positions of church leadership) use phrases like “That’s so gay” to describe something they don’t like. Such comments are only going to make their Christian brothers and sisters struggling with SSA feel unable to open up. When I first began to share my experiences with friends at church, I was struck by how many mature Christians felt they needed to apologize for comments they’d made in the past about homosexuality, which they now realized may have been hurtful.

Key to helping people feel safe about sharing issues of SSA is having a culture of openness about the struggles and weaknesses we experience in general in the Christian life. Tim Keller has said that churches should feel more like the waiting room for a doctor and less like a waiting room for a job interview. In the latter we all try to look as competent and impressive as we can. Weaknesses are buried and hidden. But in a doctor’s waiting room we assume everyone there is sick and needs help. And this scene is much closer to the reality of what is going on in church.

By definition, Christians are weak. We depend on the grace and generosity of God. We are the “poor in spirit” (Matt. 5:3). It’s a mark of a healthy church that we can talk about these things, and we need to do all we can to encourage a culture of being real about the hard things of the Christian life.

But there is a caution: having made it easy for someone to talk about their sexual struggles, we must not then make the mistake of always talking to them about it. They may need to be asked about how things are going from time to time, but to make this the main or only thing you talk about with them can be problematic. It may reinforce the false idea that this is who they really are, and it may actually overlook other issues that they may need to talk about more. Sexuality may not be their greatest battle.

2. Honor singleness.​

Those for whom marriage is not a realistic prospect need to be affirmed in their calling to singleness. Our fellowships need to uphold and honor singleness as a gift and take care not unwittingly to denigrate it. Singles should not be thought or spoken of as loose ends that need tying up. Nor should we think that every single person is single because he’s been too lazy to look for a marriage partner.

I remember meeting another pastor who, on finding out I was single, insisted I should be married by now and proceeded to outline immediate steps I needed to take to rectify this situation. He was forthright and only backed down when I burst into tears and told him I was struggling with homosexuality. It’s not an admission I should have needed to make. We need to respect that singleness is not necessarily a sign that someone is postponing growing up.

3. Remember that church is family.​

Paul repeatedly refers to the local church as the “God’s household” (for example, 1 Tim. 3:15). It’s the family of God, and Christians are to be family to one another. So Paul encourages Timothy to treat older men as fathers, “younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters” (1 Tim. 5:1-2). The church is to think of itself as immediate family.

Nuclear families within the church need the input and involvement of the wider church family; they are not designed to be self-contained. Those who open up their family life to others find that it is a great two-way blessing. Singles get to experience some of the joys of family life; children get to benefit from the influence of other older Christians; parents get to have the encouragement of others supporting them; and families as a whole get to learn something of what it means to serve Christ by being outward-looking as a family.

4. Deal with biblical models of masculinity and femininity, rather than cultural stereotypes. ​

Battles with SSA can sometimes be related to a sense of not quite measuring up to expected norms of what a man or woman is meant to be like. So when the church reinforces superficial cultural stereotypes, the effect can be to worsen this sense of isolation and not quite measuring up.

For example, to imply that men are supposed to be into sports or fixing their own car, or that women are supposed to enjoy crafts and will want to “talk about everything,” is to deal in cultural rather than biblical ideas of how God has made us. This stereotyping can actually end up overlooking many ways in which people are reflecting some of the biblical aspects of manhood and womanhood that culture overlooks.

5. Provide good pastoral support.​

Pastoral care for those with SSA does not need to be structured, but it does need to be visible. Many churches now run support groups for members battling with SSA; others provide mentoring or prayer-partner schemes.

Those with SSA need to know that the church is ready to support and help them, and that it has people with a particular heart and insight to be involved in this ministry. There may be issues that need to be worked through, and passages from the Bible that need to be studied and applied with care and gentle determination. There may be good friendships that need to be cultivated and accountability put in place, and there will be the need for long-term community. These are all things the local church is best placed to provide.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's very controversial. There are arguments on both sides of the issue.
My position is that God is sovereign over all creation.
He didn't create evil, but He did create the possibility for it to happen.

Actually, you're stating what Christianity teaches.
Also, there is really no controversy...
the sin nature is recognized in all denominations and I've never heard of a "controversy".
Maybe you mean by this that God created evil?
As I've said...ONLY the reformed believe God created evil.
No other denomination believes this and the Apostles and early church did not teach this.
Augustine began this heresy in the 5th century.
Even the CC had denied it - even though he was a high ranking Catholic theologian.

But yes, God did create man to have free will.
Man's free will caused him to break the rapport between himself and God.
Sin entered into the world and was passed on to each human and even to nature.

Romans 8:21-22
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Fair enough.
We are also born with many fine attributes too.
Genetics and family bloodlines play a part as well.

Of course!
The sin nature does not reign supreme.
And once a person is born again,,,it is put under submission to the Holy Spirit.

Many of the issues we face show up unannounced.
A person with gender dysphoria has a realization that they are different.
But they usually have no idea why. And are fearful to share with anyone.

This is where the church can help. If a youth pastor talks to youth about it,
a child in that situation will not feel alone and will probably confide in someone.

But if the church claims it is sin and demonic influence, the child will keep it to themselves.
They will be trapped in a private life. Homosexuality used to be like that. Still is somewhat.

I agree.
But every church would have to have a Christian psychologist/psychiatrist on board and then I fear you'll be complaining that the child is being manipulated into submission to the Christian ideal.

But I do agree that some kind of help should be available.
I believe our churches are woefully inadequate to respond to the needs of their laity./members.

 

[St. SteVen]

But there is a caution: having made it easy for someone to talk about their sexual struggles, we must not then make the mistake of always talking to them about it. They may need to be asked about how things are going from time to time, but to make this the main or only thing you talk about with them can be problematic. It may reinforce the false idea that this is who they really are, and it may actually overlook other issues that they may need to talk about more. Sexuality may not be their greatest battle.

This is a great insight.
Over the years God gave me many divorced men to minister to.
I just got together with them to hang out. I never talked about divorce unless they brought it up.
I only wanted to be a friend to them. A safe space where they would not be judged.

 

[GodsGrace]

A TomBoy may reject being a girl. No dresses, or playing with dolls.
A PinkBoy may be interested in dresses and playing with dolls.

More likely WANTS to be female. Rejecting his maleness.
This leads to transgenderism.

WANTS?

You're saying that some boys WANT to be a girl?

Outside of the problem of dysphoria?

 

[shepherdsword]

St. SteVen said:


They are already a wonderful Christian family.
Why are you preaching the gospel to them? They know Jesus died for every sin
and they can overcome any temptation if they walk with him.
This does little for the gender dysphoria crisis they are faced with.

You say it does little but what experience do you actually have in this area? How many have you counseled? How many have you actually sent for medical treatment for hormonal imbalance? What is your success rate? If they already know the Lord then they already have all they need to overcome. They just need to be encouraged to do so.

 

[Button]

Original Hebrew Isaiah 45:7 יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־ אֵֽלֶּה" (Yotzer or u'vore choshech, oseh shalom u'vore ra', ani Yahweh oseh kol-eleh), which translates to, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create {calamity/woe/evil}; I the LORD do all these things".

 

[GodsGrace]

The damage begins early. A boy growing up without a father in the house often causes boy to identify with mom, which can lead to confusing feelings and perceptions, who then encounters this culture assuring him that this is normal, and "you were born that way".

Much love!

It's a deep topic.

First, you make it sound like every boy who grows up without a father will become gay.
Boy are exposed to other men besides the father figure.

We also have to state, at some point, the non-orthodox sexual relations are not good for society as a whole.
It disrupts the "normal" routine of a civilized society, causes families to fall apart because there are no longer any moral standard with which to live by and because it's led to what we have today: Young people living together instead of getting married because they have no desire to create a family.

But back to the problem:
So a person figures out that they're gay at some point.
What do we expect from them?

It was better in the past when these relationships existed but they were kept quiet and personal.
I was shocked to find out that Rock Hudsom was gay.
A macho man of the 50's and 60's.
It was also shocking to hear George Michael say that he could get anyone he wants.
The young are exposed to this way of thinking.

Do you have a SOLUTION?
I don't have one.
What if it were you?
You're 18 and realize you're going to have to spend your life alone
and not be able to share it with anyone....
Do we really ever consider this?

I'm very torn by this.
But I know that a gay life style is not good.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say it does little but what experience do you actually have in this area? How many have you counseled? How many have you actually sent for medical treatment for hormonal imbalance? What is your success rate? If the already know the Lord then they already have all they need to overcome. They just need to be encouraged to do so.

I don't think it's this easy S.
Please read my post just above.

 

[GodsGrace]

We'll leave and shard in a lunch as new millionaires.

You're buying. lol

I think Jesus said to share and share alike.

 

[Button]

I think Jesus said to share and share alike.

Oh ok,I'll cover the tip.

 

[marks]

First, you make it sound like every boy who grows up without a father will become gay.

That of course is not so. But it is a common factor.

Boy are exposed to other men besides the father figure.

That can help, but does not replace the daily personal presence of Dad.

We also have to state, at some point, the non-orthodox sexual relations are not good for society as a whole.
It disrupts the "normal" routine of a civilized society, causes families to fall apart because there are no longer any moral standard with which to live by and because it's led to what we have today: Young people living together instead of getting married because they have no desire to create a family.

Marriage was instituted by God to be the closest human experience to exemplify what He wants with us, and perverting that is a denial and rejection of God Himself, whether wittingly or unwittingly.

But back to the problem:
So a person figures out that they're gay at some point.
What do we expect from them?

My contention is that we have to treat everyone as the real person they are, and not try to answer someone's online hypothetical.

At the end of the day, sin is sin, and we are to serve others out of our love for them. So the first thing to know, if I am in contact with someone who thinks of themself as homosexual, what I need to know is, do I in fact love them? Am I so concerned for their well being that it eclipses my concern for myself?

Not, what should I expect from another, but, what should I expect from myself?

If I am walking in love, the Holy Spirit will guide what I should do, and I don't think it's going to be a "cookie cutter" answer.

It was better in the past when these relationships existed but they were kept quiet and personal.
I was shocked to find out that Rock Hudsom was gay.
A macho man of the 50's and 60's.
It was also shocking to hear George Michael say that he could get anyone he wants.
The young are exposed to this way of thinking.

And it's not just this sort of thing, there is so much rampant sin in this world.

Do you have a SOLUTION?

If we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is the answer for all.

I don't have one.
What if it were you?
You're 18 and realize you're going to have to spend your life alone
and not be able to share it with anyone....
Do we really ever consider this?

I was an alcoholic, and I've not drank since 1986. That was what I had to do. We can do hard things.

I'm very torn by this.
But I know that a gay life style is not good.

I think a homosexual lifestyle is self-destruction.

To anyone caught up in a sinful lifestyle, I have the same answer. Bring it to Jesus, and trust in Him. Do what He says as best you can, and trust Him.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Your first statement is surprising. You don't know how the church can help LGBTQ?

The Gospel Coalition (TGC)

The Gospel Coalition’s mission is to help renew and unify the contemporary church in the ancient gospel.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Right.
2, 4 and 5 are good.
But how many churches do this?

It's good to have a church family.
But when the battles come we're alone.
It's me and God - friends don't really help much except for some emotinal support.
I'll be it's not enough in a llfe-long struggle.

Just a few months had passsed for the person in the article.
Let's go back 5 years from now.

life-long.
that's a long time to be in a battle.

 

[GodsGrace]

That of course is not so. But it is a common factor.

Is it common?
I know that a fatherless family has children that will more readily turn to crime.
This is a proven fact.
But if you have the stats, OK.

That can help, but does not replace the daily personal presence of Dad.

Agreed.
Much can be said about this.
Sometimes OTHER male models are BETTER than the dad.

Marriage was instituted by God to be the closest human experience to exemplify what He wants with us, and perverting that is a denial and rejection of God Himself, whether wittingly or unwittingly.

Yes sir. Agreed 100%

My contention is that we have to treat everyone as the real person they are, and not try to answer someone's online hypothetical.

Maybe it's a good idea to talk about this for some.
Personally, I tend to stay away from such personal discussion.
We cannot really know what a gay or trans person goes through.
We have God to help us and are able to depend on that help.
Not everyone does....not even every Christian.
Some even lose their faith over probllems that present themselves.
It's a complicated issue for sure.

At the end of the day, sin is sin, and we are to serve others out of our love for them. So the first thing to know, if I am in contact with someone who thinks of themself as homosexual, what I need to know is, do I in fact love them? Am I so concerned for their well being that it eclipses my concern for myself?

Right.
BUT
Do they WANT your help?
You cannot help a person that does not want to be helped.

Also, are they Christian?
If not,,,they'll be much more lost (or totally lost) and I mean in even a human way.

Honestly,,,I don't believe I'd be able to help a person in that situation.
I admire anyone that does because, yes, much help is needed.

Not, what should I expect from another, but, what should I expect from myself?

If I am walking in love, the Holy Spirit will guide what I should do, and I don't think it's going to be a "cookie cutter" answer.

Agreed.
And we don't know what we'd do until we're faced with the situation.
We're just talking here, I'd say.

And it's not just this sort of thing, there is so much rampant sin in this world.

Yes sir.
It's distressing.
And what is distressing too - is that most don't even believe it's sin...
or care that it's sin.

If we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is the answer for all.

I agree IF the person is Christian and IF they are blessed to be living with the Holy Spirit.

I was an alcoholic, and I've not drank since 1986. That was what I had to do. We can do hard things.

Stopping the drinking of alcohol
is not the same
as renouncing human intimacy.

I think a homosexual lifestyle is self-destruction.

Yes sir. Agreed 100%

To anyone caught up in a sinful lifestyle, I have the same answer. Bring it to Jesus, and trust in Him. Do what He says as best you can, and trust Him.

Right.
But not everyone believes in Jesus.
And some that do don't have the power of the Holy Spirit within them.