WWJD with LGBTQ?

[St. SteVen]

The next question probably ought to be "what is causing gender dysphoria?"

Typically, an imbalance in estrogen and testosterone levels.
Which leads me to conclude that there is a physical, or medical aspect to this.
The dysphoria plays out in the mind, but a person likely can't just shake this off.
It is already effecting their social life. Same-sex attraction can be a part of that.

 

[Wick Stick]

Typically, an imbalance in estrogen and testosterone levels.

Yes

Which leads me to conclude that there is a physical, or medical aspect to this.

I think it's partly dietary. We're eating more soy and soybean oil, and that promotes higher estrogen.

I also read an interesting article that found higher prevalence of intestinal parasites in homosexual people. Anecdotal evidence was provided of a few cases where anti-parasite medicine was administered and homosexual urges were curbed.

The dysphoria plays out in the mind, but a person likely can't just shake this off.
It is already effecting their social life. Same-sex attraction can be a part of that.

I don't know that gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction are quite the same thing. They live in the same henhouse, but I think they might be different chickens.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't know that gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction are quite the same thing. They live in the same henhouse, but I think they might be different chickens.

The world of today is full of endocrine disrupters, so yes, this problem is exacerbated by environmental factors in these last days…..but homosexuality is old….some ancient cultures embraced it and promoted it, but sexual orientation is governed by factors that are apparent even in young children. I have a nephew who showed very feminine traits from early childhood….and grew up to be homosexual. It was not a choice for him, but something he was born with. Do we condemn those who are born this way?

Since the Bible does not condemn the sinner but condemns the sin, if these ones remain celibate throughout their lives, because they are sacrificing themselves for God, can we say that they are unworthy of God’s love? Wouldn’t God commend them all the more for that sacrifice?

The whole “gay pride” movement is to flaunt the sexuality and to promote illicit sex between same sex couples…..that is a whole different kettle of fish. Sex is reserved for married couples (there is no sanction for same sex marriage in the Bible) and it is for the production of children which same sex couples cannot produce without a third party, which is also condemned in the Bible.

The lines are clear…no need to redefine them or cross them…..God has spoken and he will not change his mind.
Seeing the churches of Christendom in turmoil over this issue is telling….well known denominations are splitting up over it. What does that show? Whose voice are they obeying?

 

[quietthinker]

it would be if it leads one to doubt or even deny what Gender God created them as being

I wonder if thalidomide children wonder why God made them without or crippled limbs?

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't know that gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction are quite the same thing. They live in the same henhouse, but I think they might be different chickens.

LOL
I agree, but if you feel like you are in the wrong body, an obvious side-effect would be same-sex attraction.
And same-sex attraction is not homosexuality unless it is acted on.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have a nephew who showed very feminine traits from early childhood….and grew up to be homosexual. It was not a choice for him, but something he was born with. Do we condemn those who are born this way?

That's a good question.
Christians tend to treat this as a black and white issue, but it is far more complicated than that.

 

[JesusFan]

Why would doubt be a sin?

If it leads one to try to undue th gender God created them to be

 

[Hillsage]

Think that God knew which gender He intended each Human to be born as and to stay in

it would be if it leads one to doubt or even deny what Gender God created them as being

What makes you believe God determines gender? We are not talking about Adam and Eve

A fetus is the product of 2 seeds. 1 from the father called a sperm and one from the mother called an egg. Each of the mother's eggs contributes 23 chromosomes. Two of those are X chromosomes. The father's sperms 'all' contributes 23 chromosomes also. But his individual sperms contain 'either' 1Y chromosome or 1X chromosome. Two XX's (one from male and one from female) make a female baby. One X (from the female egg), and one Y (from from the male sperm) make a male. So the father's X or Y sperm determines the normal male or female sex of a baby. That is not God's doing, it is the doing of the man/male and the woman/female.

God contributes his 'seed' to that union after the sperm has penetrated the egg, determining the sex of the fetus. His seed is 'the spirit' of a human....male or female. And the spirit has no sex, associated with it.

When Jesus declared "Ye (male/female) are gods" it was in reference to the human contribution/creation of a human body. God only 'knits together in the womb', 'that' which Father/Mother created and give to the fetus. God did not create a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome....that was on the mother. Other genetics contribute other screwed up physical deformities of babies. That is NOT GOD. That is the consequence of SIN since Adam.

There are 100 cases of "A rare sex chromosome aneuploidy: 48,XXYY syndrome". The statement in your post above, above is false. God did not create these 100 humans who have defied normal births where one is either male or female. They are both.

They are not 'freaks of God'....they are 'freaks of nature'....the sin nature of man.

A rare sex chromosome aneuploidy: 48,XXYY syndrome - PMC

48,XXYY syndrome is a rare sex chromosome abnormality. Although some physical features are similar to Klinefelter syndrome(47,XXY), 48,XXYY is typically associated with different neuropsyhciatric symptoms and phenotypic findings. Approximately 100 ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Why would doubt be a sin?

If it leads one to try to undue th gender God created them to be

That's a BIG "If".
Can you now see that the gender dysphoria itself is not a sin?

It's a circumstance like so many others.
- Being too tall, or too short.
- Too fat, or too skinny.
- Plain featured or, gorgeous.
- Smart, or stupid.

BTW: Undue, should be spelled undo in your post.

 

[Wick Stick]

I have a nephew who showed very feminine traits from early childhood….and grew up to be homosexual. It was not a choice for him, but something he was born with. Do we condemn those who are born this way?

Possibly. It depends on his behavior rather than his nature. Is he in a stable, monogamous relationship? Part of a community that does positive things in the world?

The Gay Community usually isn't that. I don't know if you've had any contact with it, but that "community" is usually centered on something between quick hook-ups, and outright sexual predation. How can a "community" built around sex end up as something that isn't depraved? The rates of crime, especially violent crimes and sex crimes against children are markedly higher there.

I suspect that most men automatically view gay and trans-women (biological men) with suspicion. We are hard-coded to protect women and children the way a dog protects the yard, and they look an awful lot like foxes and smell of weasels.

Conversely, I (we?) don't view lesbians and trans-men (biological women) that way. Women still register as something to protect, rather than predators (even when they don't think they're women).

Since the Bible does not condemn the sinner but condemns the sin, if these ones remain celibate throughout their lives, because they are sacrificing themselves for God, can we say that they are unworthy of God’s love? Wouldn’t God commend them all the more for that sacrifice?

Celibacy has traditionally been practiced by the church. Unfortunately, I can probably say the same for homosexuality.

The whole “gay pride” movement is to flaunt the sexuality and to promote illicit sex between same sex couples…..that is a whole different kettle of fish. Sex is reserved for married couples (there is no sanction for same sex marriage in the Bible) and it is for the production of children which same sex couples cannot produce without a third party, which is also condemned in the Bible.

Seems like we're on the same page. Homosexuals do not reproduce after the natural function. They "reproduce" by preying on other men, often those who are young. That's a problem.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What makes you believe God determines gender? We are not talking about Adam and Eve

I’m glad you brought that up.....so many labor under the misapprehension that we are all individually created by God, which is utter nonsense. God gave our original parents the ability to procreate, which ability is passed on to each generation, as it is with all life on this planet.....it’s the way God planned the perpetuity of all his creatures....to enjoy life....but only humans were created in God’s image and likeness. Only they were to be granted everlasting life here on this earth. This is not immortality, but the ability given to mortal beings to evade death. (Gen 3:22-24)

When genetic abnormalities become obvious, who can point a finger at God and blame him for the poor quality of life that these abnormalities often lead to? Why would he create imperfect humans when he designed them after himself, with characteristics and qualities that are not present in other sentient creatures? Humans had a role here....to represent their Creator and take care of their environment as well as looking after the creatures who would share life with them.

Why would the violent act of rape result in a pregnancy if God was creating us individually?
Why would God prevent pregnancy when a woman is designed to produce offspring and desires to be a mother.....It makes no sense. We are the creation of our parents, each contributing genetic traits, physical and mental function, and personality to the resulting progeny.

Adam’s sin is what messed up everything......it is the only thing that is responsible for all “abnormalities”....the word itself describing what is “not normal” or what is not expected from a pregnancy.

God contributes his 'seed' to that union after the sperm has penetrated the egg, determining the sex of the fetus. His seed is 'the spirit' of a human....male or female. And the spirit has no sex, associated with it.

Not sure what this is intending to describe, but the “spirit” in both Hebrew and Greek are correctly translated as “breath”. This is the first miracle of life in a newborn......that first breath triggers functions of the heart and lungs that equip a new human to function outside of the life support system of its mothers womb. When Adam was created, it was “the breath (spirit) of life” that animated him.....and it is with the cessation of that ‘breathing’ that all humans and air breathing creatures die. (Eccl 3:18-20) We are the only creatures on earth who can contemplate our own demise......and it scares the heck out of us because death was not programmed in us. Death is as foreign to us now as it always was.....it’s why we grieve very deeply. It wasn’t supposed to happen.

When Jesus declared "Ye (male/female) are gods" it was in reference to the human contribution/creation of a human body.

When Jesus made that statement, he was explaining what the word “theos” (god/s) meant.
If you read that whole passage, (John 10:31-36) the Jews were accusing Jesus of blasphemy....not for claiming to be “God” (with a capital “G”) but by claiming to be “the Son of God”. He related what you quoted...that human judges in Israel were called “gods” (small “g”) because they were divinely authorised to judge his people on his behalf. Jesus himself was divinely authorised to be their Messiah.....but it didn’t make him “God” (with a capital “G”).

God only 'knits together in the womb', 'that' which Father/Mother created and give to the fetus. God did not create a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome....that was on the mother. Other genetics contribute other screwed up physical deformities of babies. That is NOT GOD. That is the consequence of SIN since Adam.

Again, what is “knit together in the womb” is entirely governed by the processes at work within the mother’s body. The end result is always defective (with sin) but sometimes things go amiss in the genetic code or with something ingested by the mother in the early stages, and things are not put together as they should be, making the child defective in more serious ways......but the defect of sin is always present, to a greater or lesser degree in all of us.

There are 100 cases of "A rare sex chromosome aneuploidy: 48,XXYY syndrome". The statement in your post above, above is false. God did not create these 100 humans who have defied normal births where one is either male or female. They are both.

They are not 'freaks of God'....they are 'freaks of nature'....the sin nature of man.

Yes...”freaks” of fallen human nature....not because God determined that some would be born with more obvious defects, but because we are living in a world where human nature and behaviour are governed by the sinful nature we inherited....in that fact, no one is immune.

The gender issues of today are exacerbated by so many environmental and genetic factors that simply magnify the defects that Adam passed on to all of us. This far away from perfection, the gene pool is now a cess pool....I am amazed that we can still produce normal looking human beings, but the genetic code inside them continues to deteriorate....the defects are not always obvious but are still death dealing.

Science has developed ways to keep humans alive, but their quality of life is often dependant on drugs that cost a fortune, but deliver only symptom control, guaranteeing a steady income for drug companies but not a great quality of life for the ones popping the pills. In this world the love of money dictates everything....and God warned us about that. (1 Tim 6:9-10)

 

[ProDeo]

Here are some specifics from the OP to respond to.

- There is a 40% suicide rate among gays, which is driven by societal rejection. (genocide)
- Parental testimony shows children indicating a transgender preference as early as 3 to 5 years old.
- 1 in 1,500 children are born intersex, meaning either both, or ambiguous genitalia.
- Birth sex is determined by what is between your legs; gender identity is determined by what is between your ears.
- Christian gays that come out are at risk of losing, family, friends, church, employment, housing...
- Many gay couples are monogamous, and great contributors to our society.

/

Of the population that identify as LGBTQ+, 56% identify as bisexual (Gallup 2021).

 

[The Learner]

read

 

[OneGospel]

Of the population that identify as LGBTQ+, 56% identify as bisexual (Gallup 2021).

Based on what Paul teaches (which I am starting to see is what applies to believers today), does he teach that level of sinning precludes a person from being saved even though they trust just the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus to forgive all their past, present and sins to come ?

 

[Hillsage]

I’m glad you brought that up.....so many labor under the misapprehension that we are all individually created by God, which is utter nonsense. God gave our original parents the ability to procreate, which ability is passed on to each generation, as it is with all life on this planet.....it’s the way God planned the perpetuity of all his creatures....to enjoy life....but only humans were created in God’s image and likeness. Only they were to be granted everlasting life here on this earth. This is not immortality, but the ability given to mortal beings to evade death. (Gen 3:22-24)

When genetic abnormalities become obvious, who can point a finger at God and blame him for the poor quality of life that these abnormalities often lead to? Why would he create imperfect humans when he designed them after himself, with characteristics and qualities that are not present in other sentient creatures? Humans had a role here....to represent their Creator and take care of their environment as well as looking after the creatures who would share life with them.

Why would the violent act of rape result in a pregnancy if God was creating us individually?
Why would God prevent pregnancy when a woman is designed to produce offspring and desires to be a mother.....It makes no sense. We are the creation of our parents, each contributing genetic traits, physical and mental function, and personality to the resulting progeny.

Adam’s sin is what messed up everything......it is the only thing that is responsible for all “abnormalities”....the word itself describing what is “not normal” or what is not expected from a pregnancy.

Not sure what this is intending to describe, but the “spirit” in both Hebrew and Greek are correctly translated as “breath”. This is the first miracle of life in a newborn......that first breath triggers functions of the heart and lungs that equip a new human to function outside of the life support system of its mothers womb. When Adam was created, it was “the breath (spirit) of life” that animated him.....and it is with the cessation of that ‘breathing’ that all humans and air breathing creatures die. (Eccl 3:18-20) We are the only creatures on earth who can contemplate our own demise......and it scares the heck out of us because death was not programmed in us. Death is as foreign to us now as it always was.....it’s why we grieve very deeply. It wasn’t supposed to happen.

When Jesus made that statement, he was explaining what the word “theos” (god/s) meant.
If you read that whole passage, (John 10:31-36) the Jews were accusing Jesus of blasphemy....not for claiming to be “God” (with a capital “G”) but by claiming to be “the Son of God”. He related what you quoted...that human judges in Israel were called “gods” (small “g”) because they were divinely authorised to judge his people on his behalf. Jesus himself was divinely authorised to be their Messiah.....but it didn’t make him “God” (with a capital “G”).

Again, what is “knit together in the womb” is entirely governed by the processes at work within the mother’s body. The end result is always defective (with sin) but sometimes things go amiss in the genetic code or with something ingested by the mother in the early stages, and things are not put together as they should be, making the child defective in more serious ways......but the defect of sin is always present, to a greater or lesser degree in all of us.

Yes...”freaks” of fallen human nature....not because God determined that some would be born with more obvious defects, but because we are living in a world where human nature and behaviour are governed by the sinful nature we inherited....in that fact, no one is immune.

The gender issues of today are exacerbated by so many environmental and genetic factors that simply magnify the defects that Adam passed on to all of us. This far away from perfection, the gene pool is now a cess pool....I am amazed that we can still produce normal looking human beings, but the genetic code inside them continues to deteriorate....the defects are not always obvious but are still death dealing.

Science has developed ways to keep humans alive, but their quality of life is often dependant on drugs that cost a fortune, but deliver only symptom control, guaranteeing a steady income for drug companies but not a great quality of life for the ones popping the pills. In this world the love of money dictates everything....and God warned us about that. (1 Tim 6:9-10)

As is often the case AJ, we do agree on lots of points. But once again, we also disagree on much of what you just shared also. But, as I've said before, you also write too much in your posts. So much I won't even attempt to respond to my disagreements. Sadly, I also can't just can't answer with one of those much easier 'post...thumbs up'. Oh well.

 

[ProDeo]

Based on what Paul teaches (which I am starting to see is what applies to believers today), does he teach that level of sinning precludes a person from being saved even though they trust just the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus to forgive all their past, present and sins to come ?

I think Scripture is crystal what will happen to people -- calling themselves Christians -- and deliberately sin and don't repent. It's not even about sexual immorality but part of a much broader spectrum, for instance as mentioned by Paul

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[OneGospel]

I think Scripture is crystal what will happen to people -- calling themselves Christians -- and deliberately sin and don't repent. It's not even about sexual immorality but part of a much broader spectrum, for instance as mentioned by Paul

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is Paul contradicting those verses with Rom 5v1, Rom 4v5, Titus 3v5-7, Gal 2v16, Eph 2v8-9 ?

 

[ProDeo]

My knowledge is pretty much outdated, it is more than a decade ago I read a scientific paper on the issue : the percentage of people born in the wrong body was said 3%. And IMO if you belong to that 3% and want to be a Christian you have a serious problem and may God have mercy on them as we are sexual beings with needs, it took me quite some time before that sank in.

 

[ProDeo]

Is Paul contradicting those verses with Rom 5v1, Rom 4v5, Titus 3v5-7, Gal 2v16, Eph 2v8-9 ?

No.

I don't believe in easy grace.

 

[OneGospel]

No.

I don't believe in easy grace.

What do believe these verses teach ?
Titu 3v5-7, Rom 3v28, Eph 2v8-9, Gal 2v16, Rom 5v1, Rom 4v8,