Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[Spiritual Israelite]

I base that on these locusts, for example. While they are in the pit it is as if they don't even exist.

Nonsense! The locusts represent fallen angels. Do you think the fallen angels do nothing at all until the fifth trumpet sounds?

There is not one hint of them doing what they do when they are released, when they are in the pit.

Is what they are described as doing after they are released from the pit the only thing they do? Hardly. Why would you think that? It's ridiculous.

In their case, the pit appears to do what it is designed to do---imprison with no way to escape until the pit is opened.

Taking all of that literally is ludicrous. Why do you try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible as literally as you possibly can? Your approach to interpreting the book of Revelation is just plain terrible. You read it like you would read a news article that just contains literal facts all written in chronological order. That's not the kind of book that Revelation is.

Otherwise, why does the pit need to be opened before they can do what they are commanded to do once it is open?

It's all symbolic. They are prevented from doing what they are described as doing after it opens, but why in the world would you think that's the only thing they ever do?

If the pit is not literal in some sense, what's preventing anyone commanding them to do what they end end up doing?

Hello? Does God need to put fallen angels or people in a literal prison in order to be in control of what's happening? Clearly not.

The point is this, in this case. This debate would be over as far as I'm concerned if there was proof prior to ch 20 in Revelation that satan is bound, a resurrection has occurred, and that a reigning of the saints have followed. Granted, you don't take the resurrection meant in Revelation 20:4-6 to be meaning a bodily resurrection of the saints. But even so, there is no hint of any resurrection, in any sense, having taken place anywhere in the chapters that precede chapter 19 and 20.

Does the rest of the Bible mean nothing to you when you interpret the book of Revelation? Again, your approach to interpreting the book is just downright terrible. Why would you not want to take all of scripture into account when interpreting any part of the book? Other scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). Why would you not want to take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20?

Maybe Amil should try a different angle?

LOL. You mean like the ridiculous angle that you use to interpret Revelation 20? No, thanks.

Or maybe Amil already has? That angle being this--Revelation 20:7-9---and if there is proof prior to chapter 19 and 20 that it is involving this same era of time.

The battle described in Revelation 20:7-9 that results in the destruction of the wicked is also described in Revelation 16 and Revelation 19.

For example, the pit is opened in Revelation 20:7 and Revelation 9, except I don't see there being a connection based on what I have been arguing above.

You don't see a connection because of the ridiculous way that you interpret Revelation 9. What you would need to do to support your interpretation of Revelation 9 is show that Apollyon/Abaddon is not another name for Satan and that the locusts don't represent all of the fallen angels. I don't believe you can do that. And I doubt that you will even try.

Is there anything else prior to chapter 19 that could prove Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after the 2nd coming like Premils tend to think?

Of course. We see a description in Revelation 16:12-21 of the wicked throughout the world being gathered for battle after which they all are destroyed and that matches the same gathering for battle, resulting in them all being destroyed that we read about in Revelation 20:7-9.

I see Revelation 9 being relevant during the 1260 days the 2Ws are prophesying. Except I don't see it being reasonable that the beast ascends out of the pit during their allotted 1260 days, when it is not until those days are fulfilled first that the beast then makes war with them, overcomes them, then eventually kills them.

The two witnesses symbolically represent the church. They are said to be two olive trees. The two olive trees are the natural and wild olive trees that Paul referenced in Romans 11 where the natural branches of the natural olive tree represent the Israelite believers who remained in the kingdom of God with the wild branches from the wild olive tree that were grafted into the natural or good olive tree representing Gentile believers who are joined in "one body" with Israelite believers in the kingdom of God and the body of Christ. The 1260 days are not a literal 1260 days. None of the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation are literal.

Your view that the beast being in the bottomless pit makes it completely incapacitated is false. If that was the case, then why does Revelation 17:10 says one of its heads (representing kingdoms) "is" at the time the book was written? It says that because the kingdom that existed at the time was the Roman empire and we know the Roman empire was not completely incapacitated at the time the book was written. Please address this instead of going on tangents that don't address my arguments.

 

[Davidpt]

One might ask: If God has allowed Satan--to expose him, when is God not reigning?

Some of us are not saying Christ is not currently reigning. What some of us are saying is that He is not reigning bodily in the earth yet. That He is not sitting in the throne of His glory yet. But when He returns He will be doing just that. IOW, His reign began 2K years ago but it doesn't cease when He returns. He still reigns in the same manner until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Except when he returns He is reigning bodily, not unseen like now.

And that He will continue reigning in a manner involving judgment and justice until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. At that point judgment is no longer necessary. Yet Christ reigns forever and ever. Just not in the manner He is now. Since no one would argue that once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, judgment is still necessary all throughout eternity, for instance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does Revelation 20:1-6 refer to Jesus reigning and His followers being His priests? Well, yes, it does. Is that referenced anywhere previously in the book? Well, yes, it is.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare to:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If Revelation 20:6 isn't a recap of Revelation 1:5-6, then I don't know what a recap is.

@Davidpt Please address what I said here. I don't know what the reason is that you avoid addressing most of the arguments that Amils make, but if you want to be taken seriously, then you need to specifically address them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is satan bound in the way Revelation 20 defines during the church age?

Amil claim. Binding = restriction, not elimination.

But Revelation 20:3 says---so that he should deceive the nations no more. Earlier in Revelation it says satan deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

I already addressed this and I get nothing but silence from you in response. Revelation 12:9 is talking about what he was able to do BEFORE being cast out of heaven. It does not describe him as doing that right after being cast out of heaven. Instead, it describes him as becoming angry and going out to persecute Christians.

Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and after he was cast out he was no longer able to accuse believers before God in heaven day and night as he had done before. This is why Paul, in Romans 8:33, asks who can lay any charge (make any accusation) against God's elect/chosen with the answer being no one. Clearly, Satan did not deceive the whole world after being cast out of heaven. That would contradict Revelation 7:9 which describes a great multitude of people that no one can count from all nations being saved. Before he was bound and cast out of heaven, Satan deceived the whole world to the extent that Paul said Gentiles in Old Testament times had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Please address what I'm saying here instead of just ignoring it and acting as if it says Satan deceives the whole world after being cast out of heaven, which it does not.

Deceives earth dwellers (Revelation 13:14) Gathers nations for battle (Revelation 16:14)

The gathering for battle occurs during Satan's little season after he is loosed (Rev 20:7-9), so Amils don't claim that he is in the pit during that time.

To be fair, if satan doesn't deceive the nations during the thousand years, that means there are 2 options concening the above passages I submitted. Either it's meaning before he was bound or it's meaning after he is bound then loosed. Those are the only 2 times when he is deceiving the nations if we stick to the text in Revelation 20:3--that he should deceive the nations no more, till---where that obviously means the opposite of deceiving the nations.

Except Amil apparently thinks it means the same thing, the fact they have satan in the pit these past 2k years and that reality shows that satan has still been deceiving the nations the past 2k years. Yes, and I realize how Amil reasons that, such as, the pit is not literal, so on and so on, yet that is beside the point.

It's always beside the point for you to actually address what Amils believe. Unbelievable. I have to go for now, so I'll address the rest of your post later.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Some of us are not saying Christ is not currently reigning. What some of us are saying is that He is not reigning bodily in the earth yet. That He is not sitting in the throne of His glory yet. But when He returns He will be doing just that. IOW, His reign began 2K years ago but it doesn't cease when He returns. He still reigns in the same manner until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Except when he returns He is reigning bodily, not unseen like now.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 indicates that He will reign until the last enemy, death, is defeated, and scripture says that will happen when He returns which is when death will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54). Paul said the end will come when Jesus returns (1 Corinthians 15:22-24), but you have it occurring 1,000+ years after He returns instead.

And that He will continue reigning in a manner involving judgment and justice until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. At that point judgment is no longer necessary. Yet Christ reigns forever and ever. Just not in the manner He is now. Since no one would argue that once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, judgment is still necessary all throughout eternity, for instance.

What in the world are you even talking about here? Tell us exactly what you mean by referencing 1 Corinthians 15:28 in a way that people can actually understand. Quote the verse and tell us exactly why you think it supports your view rather than Amil.

 

[Davidpt]

Nonsense! The locusts represent fallen angels. Do you think the fallen angels do nothing at all until the fifth trumpet sounds?

So you then think these locusts make up all fallen angels? Obviously, not all fallen angels are in the pit yet some are. That's why you are confused here, because I'm not denying that fallen angels are roaming around free. I'm denying that all fallen angels are being imprisoned. Some are, some aren't.

Think of it like this. There is such a thing as criminals who are roaming around free and there are criminals who are locked up. Not all criminals are locked up just because they are criminals. Maybe some of them haven't got caught yet. Or maybe they have but no one can do anything about it. Trump and his DOJ come to mind. Some of the biggest criminals in America in plain sight and no one is doing anything to stop them. But let's don't get into that debate. I'm only using them as an example. They are clearly criminals yet they are not locked up. BTW, I'm a Republican, so it's not like I'm being biased here.

 

[Marty fox]

Is satan bound in the way Revelation 20 defines during the church age?

Amil claim. Binding = restriction, not elimination.

But Revelation 20:3 says---so that he should deceive the nations no more. Earlier in Revelation it says satan deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9). Deceives earth dwellers (Revelation 13:14) Gathers nations for battle (Revelation 16:14)

To be fair, if satan doesn't deceive the nations during the thousand years, that means there are 2 options concening the above passages I submitted. Either it's meaning before he was bound or it's meaning after he is bound then loosed. Those are the only 2 times when he is deceiving the nations if we stick to the text in Revelation 20:3--that he should deceive the nations no more, till---where that obviously means the opposite of deceiving the nations.

Except Amil apparently thinks it means the same thing, the fact they have satan in the pit these past 2k years and that reality shows that satan has still been deceiving the nations the past 2k years. Yes, and I realize how Amil reasons that, such as, the pit is not literal, so on and so on, yet that is beside the point.

Does Revelation ever show saints reigning in the Revelation 20’s sense during the church age? Revelation 20:4–6---thrones----judgment authority---resurrection language(They came to life and reigned)

Church age elsewhere in Revelation--saints suffering---saints being killed---saints crying for vindication.

Yes, saints are said to reign positionally (Revelation 1:6), but Revelation 20 describes post victory authority, not ongoing persecution.

Does Revelation prepare the reader earlier for a millennium already in progress?

If recap is true, we should see---hints of satan’s binding---hints of saints reigning with Christ on earth---hints of a prolonged inter-advent age described as triumphant

Instead we see---escalating deception---escalating persecution---No thousand years language anywhere else

Revelation 20 uses the same came to life phrase for both resurrections---ties reigning to resurrection--oontrasts the rest of the dead did not live

The alleged Premil millennium population problem---After Revelation 19---beast destroyed---armies destroyed----Survivors? Unclear from Revelation 19 alone when there is the OT to factor in as well. Yet during the millennium---nations exist---people rebel at the end (Revelation 20:7–9)---death still occurs (implied elsewhere)

So the question is---who populates the millennium---and how do mortals and resurrected saints coexist? The text itself implies mixed populations---saints reign (Revelation 20:4---thus they are in immortal bodies)----nations exist (Revelation 20:3, 8--thus they are mortals)---satan deceives nations after release.

So Premil isn’t inventing this---Revelation 20 demands it---the OT anticipates it---Zechariah 14---survivors of nations come to worship---disobedience punished during Christ’s reign--and that this is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, yet is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, obviously. And guess what? Zechariah 14:12 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Anyone who might argue otherwise is being absurd, and that no one in their right mind would ever agree it has already been fulfilled.

every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King.

Regardless what that might look like when fulfilled, one thing is for certain, it is impossible to go up from year to year to worship the King in a single day or less. And no, by placing this post the 2nd coming does not mean animal sacrificing resumes. It is absurd to think animal sacrificing resumes, period. Let alone after Christ has returned.

Three times I have been terrorized in the middle of the night by demonic beings. It was so frightening that I also experienced sleep paralysis I could feel the demonic presence all around me.

Each time was different with one event a spirit of fear another a spirit of trickery and finally I was suffocating. It was only claiming the authority of scripture that helped me.

Thus I used the great chain the truth and power of scripture to bind satan that’s one reason I know we are in the thousand year binding and reigning I actually experienced it that how I know my view is truth

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why it’s spiritual it’s forever the body is mortal and will die?

The Amil sees us "reigning" in mortal bodies that will die. Christian nations fail. Israel fails.
The Premil sees us "reigning" in immortal bodies that will no longer die. But we will be resurrected and reign over mortal nations on earth that will no longer fail.
The difference is that the Premil recognizes a victory over Satan that is not yet evident in the present age. It will be imposed on earth in the Millennial age.

Resurrected, glorified Christians may reign from heaven over the earth like angels. We come back with Christ not to live on the earth for a thousand years, but rather, to impose Christ's reign on the earth. My view only...

The Christian's victory over Satan in the present age is very limited. Christians are persecuted, and Christian nations fall. Israel is unable to get back on her feet as a nation of faith.

The Christian's victory over Satan in the Millennial age is more comprehensive. People still die on earth, being mortal still. But at that time the Church of the present age has entered into immortality and will impose a kind of reign on earth in which Christian nations are fulfilled, including Israel.

At that time, Satan is no longer allowed to persecute mortal Christians on earth, and he is no longer allowed to inspire international discord that obstructs God's Christian fulfillment among the nations. I believe the Bible speaks of a time when *mortal humanity* experiences a measure of peace on earth that is enduring, completing the promise God made to Abraham of having many natioins of faith.

 

[Marty fox]

The Amil sees us "reigning" in mortal bodies that will die. Christian nations fail. Israel fails.
The Premil sees us "reigning" in immortal bodies that will no longer die. But we will be resurrected and reign over mortal nations on earth that will no longer fail.
The difference is that the Premil recognizes a victory over Satan that is not yet evident in the present age. It will be imposed on earth in the Millennial age.

Resurrected, glorified Christians may reign from heaven over the earth like angels. We come back with Christ not to live on the earth for a thousand years, but rather, to impose Christ's reign on the earth. My view only...

The Christian's victory over Satan in the present age is very limited. Christians are persecuted, and Christian nations fall. Israel is unable to get back on her feet as a nation of faith.

The Christian's victory over Satan in the Millennial age is more comprehensive. People still die on earth, being mortal still. But at that time the Church of the present age has entered into immortality and will impose a kind of reign on earth in which Christian nations are fulfilled, including Israel.

At that time, Satan is no longer allowed to persecute mortal Christians on earth, and he is no longer allowed to inspire international discord that obstructs God's Christian fulfillment among the nations. I believe the Bible speaks of a time when *mortal humanity* experiences a measure of peace on earth that is enduring, completing the promise God made to Abraham of having many natioins of faith.

You say mortal nations on earth that will no longer fail but they do fail don’t they?

Our spiritual reigning never ends

 

[Davidpt]

What in the world are you even talking about here? Tell us exactly what you mean by referencing 1 Corinthians 15:28 in a way that people can actually understand. Quote the verse and tell us exactly why you think it supports your view rather than Amil.

Presently He is reigning on the right hand of power. What all does that involve? It involves judgment, justice, and death, for one. But once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, He is no longer reigning in that manner, yet He reigns for ever and ever. Just not in the manner involving judgment, justice, death, etc. As to the saints that reign with Him a thousand years, that is meaning when He has returned to the earth bodily and is then sitting upon His throne of glory until judgment, justice, and death has been satisfied and put away.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


How can any objective person not see that 'my throne', meaning Christ's throne, is not meaning His Father's throne? How can any objective person not see that 'my throne' is meaning His throne of glory He sits upon when He bodily returns in the end of this age? How can any objective person not see that this---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne---is meaning when He sits upon His throne of glory when He returns and is, therefore, meaning during the millennium?

How can any objective person not see that both Matthew 19:28 and Matthew 25:31 prove this?

How can any objective person deny that you fully overcome first, then you are rewarded later for having fully overcome? How can one fully overcome unless they do that all the way up unto the end? Keeping in mind there is such a thing as falling away, except a lot of Amils deny it, but not all Amils deny it. How can any objective person not see that Christ fully overcame first, thus He never fell away before He died and that He was then rewarded with being set down with His Father in His Father's throne?

Except Amil has things backwards when it comes to them. Before they have even proved they have fully overcome first, they already have themselves being rewarded, thus sitting with Christ in Christ's throne, when they know very good and well that Christ didn't do it in that order Himself. So why do Amils think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter when it wasn't true of Christ? He had to overcome first, then He was rewarded. That chronological order hasn't changed. It's still the same--overcome first--get rewarded later. Even the rewards involving the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 prove this, that one overcomes first, they are then rewarded later.

Amil theology is like being in a race and being rewarded with a victor's prize before the race is even run first. Totally backwards.

 

[WPM]

At that time, Satan is no longer allowed to persecute mortal Christians on earth, and he is no longer allowed to inspire international discord that obstructs God's Christian fulfillment among the nations. I believe the Bible speaks of a time when *mortal humanity* experiences a measure of peace on earth that is enduring, completing the promise God made to Abraham of having many natioins of faith.

Not true. Deception is rampant in the Premil millennium because there are countless people that reject Christ in their heart and are forced to give feigned worship in Jerusalem to Christ or they will be swiped with Christ's rod of iron? You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust! It is a sham. I am glad it will never occur.

The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

So much for the age of Aquarius and the historic peace! I wonder how the saints that have experienced centuries of true heavenly peace and perfection would feel knowing they are going to be subjected to the Premil scenario of more sin, more death, more wicked, more rebellion, more war and more Satan. This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for your war-free millennium!!!

The feigned devotion that marks the vast bulk of the millennial inhabitants takes a thousand yrs to be uncovered; by that time the amount of phonies has swamped the millennial earth to a number as vast as the sand of the sea. This certainly is in stark contrast to the victorious millennial earth that most Premils portray in their writings, arguments and sermons.

Premils imagine a future millennial age on earth that is vastly different from our day and only slightly less-perfect than the new heavens and new earth. When the reality is in fact that it is little different from our present day.

 

[WPM]

So you then think these locusts make up all fallen angels? Obviously, not all fallen angels are in the pit yet some are. That's why you are confused here, because I'm not denying that fallen angels are roaming around free. I'm denying that all fallen angels are being imprisoned. Some are, some aren't.

Think of it like this. There is such a thing as criminals who are roaming around free and there are criminals who are locked up. Not all criminals are locked up just because they are criminals. Maybe some of them haven't got caught yet. Or maybe they have but no one can do anything about it. Trump and his DOJ come to mind. Some of the biggest criminals in America in plain sight and no one is doing anything to stop them. But let's don't get into that debate. I'm only using them as an example. They are clearly criminals yet they are not locked up. BTW, I'm a Republican, so it's not like I'm being biased here.

• Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
• Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
• Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

 

[WPM]

Obviously, not all fallen angels are in the pit yet some are.

Says who? You! 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Rev 9 and 20 does not say that.

You are always adding unto Scripture to support your error.

 

[WPM]

Is satan bound in the way Revelation 20 defines during the church age?

Amil claim. Binding = restriction, not elimination.

But Revelation 20:3 says---so that he should deceive the nations no more. Earlier in Revelation it says satan deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9). Deceives earth dwellers (Revelation 13:14) Gathers nations for battle (Revelation 16:14)

To be fair, if satan doesn't deceive the nations during the thousand years, that means there are 2 options concening the above passages I submitted. Either it's meaning before he was bound or it's meaning after he is bound then loosed. Those are the only 2 times when he is deceiving the nations if we stick to the text in Revelation 20:3--that he should deceive the nations no more, till---where that obviously means the opposite of deceiving the nations.

Except Amil apparently thinks it means the same thing, the fact they have satan in the pit these past 2k years and that reality shows that satan has still been deceiving the nations the past 2k years. Yes, and I realize how Amil reasons that, such as, the pit is not literal, so on and so on, yet that is beside the point.

Does Revelation ever show saints reigning in the Revelation 20’s sense during the church age? Revelation 20:4–6---thrones----judgment authority---resurrection language(They came to life and reigned)

Church age elsewhere in Revelation--saints suffering---saints being killed---saints crying for vindication.

Yes, saints are said to reign positionally (Revelation 1:6), but Revelation 20 describes post victory authority, not ongoing persecution.

Does Revelation prepare the reader earlier for a millennium already in progress?

If recap is true, we should see---hints of satan’s binding---hints of saints reigning with Christ on earth---hints of a prolonged inter-advent age described as triumphant

Instead we see---escalating deception---escalating persecution---No thousand years language anywhere else

Revelation 20 uses the same came to life phrase for both resurrections---ties reigning to resurrection--oontrasts the rest of the dead did not live

The alleged Premil millennium population problem---After Revelation 19---beast destroyed---armies destroyed----Survivors? Unclear from Revelation 19 alone when there is the OT to factor in as well. Yet during the millennium---nations exist---people rebel at the end (Revelation 20:7–9)---death still occurs (implied elsewhere)

So the question is---who populates the millennium---and how do mortals and resurrected saints coexist? The text itself implies mixed populations---saints reign (Revelation 20:4---thus they are in immortal bodies)----nations exist (Revelation 20:3, 8--thus they are mortals)---satan deceives nations after release.

So Premil isn’t inventing this---Revelation 20 demands it---the OT anticipates it---Zechariah 14---survivors of nations come to worship---disobedience punished during Christ’s reign--and that this is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, yet is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, obviously. And guess what? Zechariah 14:12 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Anyone who might argue otherwise is being absurd, and that no one in their right mind would ever agree it has already been fulfilled.

every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King.

Regardless what that might look like when fulfilled, one thing is for certain, it is impossible to go up from year to year to worship the King in a single day or less. And no, by placing this post the 2nd coming does not mean animal sacrificing resumes. It is absurd to think animal sacrificing resumes, period. Let alone after Christ has returned.

Just like blindness and darkness are attributed to the Gentiles (without qualification) prior to the cross, it didn’t mean that every single Gentile was blind and in darkness. Scripture often described the Gentiles as a collective whole. That did not mean the Gentiles were all the same. Scripture, like us, makes generalities. Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry the heathen nations were viewed as being in wholesale ignorant and therefore outside of God’s plan of salvation. Could I suggest this was simply a general observation about the overall condition of the Gentiles as a broad mass, not an attempt to represent every single Gentile?

If we were to take many of the sweeping general statements re the blindness and darkness of the Gentiles in the OT hyper-literally it would negate the salvation of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5). Were these not Gentiles? Where these not “God's people”? The fact is this general assertion did not apply to every single Gentile. Likewise, when Scripture speak about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced in the Old Testament.

Let me illustrate.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

 

[WPM]

Is satan bound in the way Revelation 20 defines during the church age?

Amil claim. Binding = restriction, not elimination.

But Revelation 20:3 says---so that he should deceive the nations no more. Earlier in Revelation it says satan deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9). Deceives earth dwellers (Revelation 13:14) Gathers nations for battle (Revelation 16:14)

To be fair, if satan doesn't deceive the nations during the thousand years, that means there are 2 options concening the above passages I submitted. Either it's meaning before he was bound or it's meaning after he is bound then loosed. Those are the only 2 times when he is deceiving the nations if we stick to the text in Revelation 20:3--that he should deceive the nations no more, till---where that obviously means the opposite of deceiving the nations.

Except Amil apparently thinks it means the same thing, the fact they have satan in the pit these past 2k years and that reality shows that satan has still been deceiving the nations the past 2k years. Yes, and I realize how Amil reasons that, such as, the pit is not literal, so on and so on, yet that is beside the point.

Does Revelation ever show saints reigning in the Revelation 20’s sense during the church age? Revelation 20:4–6---thrones----judgment authority---resurrection language(They came to life and reigned)

Church age elsewhere in Revelation--saints suffering---saints being killed---saints crying for vindication.

Yes, saints are said to reign positionally (Revelation 1:6), but Revelation 20 describes post victory authority, not ongoing persecution.

Does Revelation prepare the reader earlier for a millennium already in progress?

If recap is true, we should see---hints of satan’s binding---hints of saints reigning with Christ on earth---hints of a prolonged inter-advent age described as triumphant

Instead we see---escalating deception---escalating persecution---No thousand years language anywhere else

Revelation 20 uses the same came to life phrase for both resurrections---ties reigning to resurrection--oontrasts the rest of the dead did not live

The alleged Premil millennium population problem---After Revelation 19---beast destroyed---armies destroyed----Survivors? Unclear from Revelation 19 alone when there is the OT to factor in as well. Yet during the millennium---nations exist---people rebel at the end (Revelation 20:7–9)---death still occurs (implied elsewhere)

So the question is---who populates the millennium---and how do mortals and resurrected saints coexist? The text itself implies mixed populations---saints reign (Revelation 20:4---thus they are in immortal bodies)----nations exist (Revelation 20:3, 8--thus they are mortals)---satan deceives nations after release.

So Premil isn’t inventing this---Revelation 20 demands it---the OT anticipates it---Zechariah 14---survivors of nations come to worship---disobedience punished during Christ’s reign--and that this is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled, yet is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, obviously. And guess what? Zechariah 14:12 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Anyone who might argue otherwise is being absurd, and that no one in their right mind would ever agree it has already been fulfilled.

every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King.

Regardless what that might look like when fulfilled, one thing is for certain, it is impossible to go up from year to year to worship the King in a single day or less. And no, by placing this post the 2nd coming does not mean animal sacrificing resumes. It is absurd to think animal sacrificing resumes, period. Let alone after Christ has returned.

Jesus said in John 3:19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus shined the light and it dispelled the darkness. In fact, wherever this light shines it removes ignorance and deception and enlightens and sets men free. No one could surely deny that this light has been shining strong upon the Gentiles for 2,000 year. The evidence is there for all to see.

When Paul was given an assignment to invade the nations with the Gospel in Acts 26:17-18, it went like this,

Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Did this mean that the deception that blinded the Gentiles would finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Jesus, here, directly links the spiritual darkness enveloping the Gentiles to the power of Satan. He connects the Gentiles turning from darkness to light through the advance of the great commission to the deliverance of the Gentiles from the bondage or chains of Satan. This is how the gross darkness would be (and was) removed that hung over the Gentiles throughout the old covenant period. This is how they were delivered from the power of Satan to God to liberty in Christ.

Satan hates us shining a light. He knows that the reception of that light breaks the bondage of sin and sets men free.

The reason Satan’s authority was overrun throughout the nations was the power of the Word of God. It is the same tonight – or an hour day.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

A result of the first Advent and the life, death and first resurrection of Jesus was that the ignorance was removed, the Gospel opportunity was widened out to the Gentiles. They no longer sat in darkness, ignorance and hopelessness deceived by the devil in their paganism.

Does this passage suggest there is no more darkness in this world any longer? Does this mean everyone is now enlightened? Of course not! This is a spiritual generality. This is common in Scripture. It is demonstrating the powerful result of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This is testifying of the massive change that occurred with the global assault upon the kingdom of darkness. This is showing the impact of the success of the great commission. Men throughout the nations are now without excuse. The truth has been spread to the uttermost parts of the earth. This is saying the exact same as Revelation 20:2.

Acts 17:30 says, “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Ephesians 2:11-12: "remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

Ephesians 5:8: "ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

 

[WPM]

I think the Amillennial position considers that Rev 20 sets the stage for the NT itinerary of events, and then reads that back into NT history. In other words, we see Christ's reign and Satan's rebellion in the Millennial age in Rev 20 and then we're supposed to read that back into the NT age as Christ's reign in the Church Age and Satan's rebellion in the Antichristian Rebellion.

The sequence is similar, but I think they are different ages.
Church Age: Christian kingdoms, and then apostasy and Antichristian rebellion
Millennial Age: Christ's eschatological Kingdom, and then Satanic rebellion

I don't think the Amil method is a legitimate way to do eschatology or theology, however. The explanation should not have to depend upon a small portion of Scription to have the NT age properly ordered and categorized.

In my view, Satan is quite involved in the present age--not just during the Reign of Antichrist but all through the NT age. And though it can be said that Christians demonstrate authority over Satan in matters like exorcism that hardly argues for unlimited power over Satan.

Quite the opposite, not only is Satan given to defeat the saints in the rebellion of Antichrist, but all through the Church age Christians are given over to persecution and suffering at times. This is hardly the "Reign of Christ," as depicted either in the OT Prophets or in the book of Revelation. Christ's 2nd Coming is what brings this glorious reign, and is not something that happened at Christ's 1st Coming.

But will we resolve this for most in the Church? Of course not. Christians must decide for themselves what is most likely, and what the best arguments are. We should not get overly optimistic about our ability to agree, nor overly angry over our inability to agree. My opinion only...

Your cry is "what saith Revelation 20." That is the Premil mantra. Every other passage presented is dismissed if it disagrees with your opinion of Revelation 20. Premil has only got one string to their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.

Amils prefer the motto of Paul in Apostle in Romans 4:3: “For what saith the Scripture?"

 

[Davidpt]

The only way Amil survives is if only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't. Which would then mean everyone overcomes, regardless. Which then makes nonsense out of why does one need to overcome in order to be rewarded, if being saved alone automatically means having overcome, period? Some Amils of course can't comprehend that because of their heretical doctrine that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't. Notice what I said there. I did not say the doctrine of OSAS is heresy. I said the doctrine of--- that only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't, is heresy. Huge difference. Both are equally Biblical since it would be absurd to argue that Paul, for example, once he was saved he did not remain saved--thus = OSAS in his case.

Judas, OTOH, is an example of NOSAS. Or if we don't want to use him for an example, why would anyone dispute 2 Thessalonians 2:3, though? Unless there come a falling away first. Should we understand that in the lame manner that many Pretribbers do? That it means a departure from the earth? That it means a rapture before tribulation? Or should we take it to mean what it actually means? And that is, to fall away from salvation?

 

[WPM]

The only way Amil survives is if only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't. Which would then mean everyone overcomes, regardless. Which then makes nonsense out of why does one need to overcome in order to be rewarded, if being saved alone automatically means having overcome, period? Some Amils of course can't comprehend that because of their heretical doctrine that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't. Notice what I said there. I did not say the doctrine of OSAS is heresy. I said the doctrine of--- that only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't, is heresy. Huge difference. Both are equally Biblical since it would be absurd to argue that Paul, for example, once he was saved he did not remain saved--thus = OSAS in his case.

Judas, OTOH, is an example of NOSAS. Or if we don't want to use him for an example, why would anyone dispute 2 Thessalonians 2:3, though? Unless there come a falling away first. Should we understand that in the lame manner that many Pretribbers do? That it means a departure from the earth? That it means a rapture before tribulation? Or should we take it to mean what it actually means? And that is, to fall away from salvation?

Your hatred of OSAS and Amill eats you up. It prevents you from seeing the truth. If you would simply let the Holy Spirit lead you instead of your flesh you would see it.

You refuse to go to church (as Scripture demands) and refuse to make yourself accountable to godly leadership (as Scripture demands). That is because "you know it all." You are a loose cannon!

Jesus taught in John 17:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee ...
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11... Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled...
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me.

 

[ScottA]

Some of us are not saying Christ is not currently reigning. What some of us are saying is that He is not reigning bodily in the earth yet. That He is not sitting in the throne of His glory yet. But when He returns He will be doing just that. IOW, His reign began 2K years ago but it doesn't cease when He returns. He still reigns in the same manner until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Except when he returns He is reigning bodily, not unseen like now.

And that He will continue reigning in a manner involving judgment and justice until 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. At that point judgment is no longer necessary. Yet Christ reigns forever and ever. Just not in the manner He is now. Since no one would argue that once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, judgment is still necessary all throughout eternity, for instance.

Next question. One might ask: If Jesus is reigning in us, His body, is He not even now reigning bodily?

And the next. One might ask: Is 1 Corinthians 15:28 referring to Jesus reigning bodily being fulfilled, or does it rather refer to "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled?"

And the next. One might ask: Is Judgement still necessary if each person "but each one in his own order" has personally completed "for men to die once," --"but after this the judgment"--"after" being as "today you will be with Me in Paradise?” Which is to say--all things are only "future" for those to whom that time has not yet come as "today" personally--"each one in his own order." This is therefore the "but" that Paul inserted into his explaining the timing. "Therefore."

 

[Davidpt]

Next question. One might ask: If Jesus is reigning in us, His body, is He not even now reigning bodily?

Though, I see your point, and it is an interesting point at that, that is still not the same as He Himself being bodily upon the earth and that everyone can see He is bodily present the same way everyone could see He was bodily present when He walked the earth 2k years ago, for example. You don't perhaps think He will never bodily return do you?