Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Wrangler]

You've been shown many times the scriptures that support Christ's divinity. You ignore them.

No. I deny the claim that ‘supports’ is not the same as an actual explicit teaching.

 

[Wrangler]

I know the Son is not equal to God in all things.

A confession destroying the trinity. Thanks for your honesty.

 

[Justified]

Hebrews 1:8-10
But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

Very confusing scripture

No, it isn't. What is stated is stated plainly and clearly. Of course, I didn't post anything about most of verse 8 and all of verse 9. My point was clearly the beginning of verse 8--"But of the Son he says." That leads to verses 10-12, so that we know the Father is speaking when verse 10 begins with "And."

but what it does not say that Yeshua is Yahweh.

It strongly implies it, from the Father's own words no less.

The problem with this is that it re-writes the Old Testament.

Except that it doesn't. What you don't seem to realize, or believe, is that the Bible uses progressive revelation. That is, what we read in the NT provides additional information for clarification on much of the OT. That is why the writers of the NT so often apply OT passages to Jesus, that no one would connect if they hadn't said so. This is a plain and obvious fact.

So, in the Father saying that the Son is the creator and Yahweh, as mentioned in Ps. 102, the writer of Hebrews is bringing additional information that brings more clarification to just who Yahweh truly is. In this case, Yahweh is at least both Father and Son.

In the original Old Testament texts Yahweh by name is said to create everything.

In the current OT it says the same. Yet, in the NT, we have the Son also involved in the creation of everything. Of course, the Holy Spirit seemed to have been involved in creation according to Gen. 1:2.

And He said repeatedly that He was the only God and there was no one like Him.

Exactly. And that never changes in the NT.

On this I side with Yahweh.

Except that you don't. You contradict him, essentially calling him a liar.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, it isn't. What is stated is stated plainly and clearly. Of course, I didn't post anything about most of verse 8 and all of verse 9. My point was clearly the beginning of verse 8--"But of the Son he says." That leads to verses 10-12, so that we know the Father is speaking when verse 10 begins with "And."


It strongly implies it, from the Father's own words no less.


Except that it doesn't. What you don't seem to realize, or believe, is that the Bible uses progressive revelation. That is, what we read in the NT provides additional information for clarification on much of the OT. That is why the writers of the NT so often apply OT passages to Jesus, that no one would connect if they hadn't said so. This is a plain and obvious fact.

So, in the Father saying that the Son is the creator and Yahweh, as mentioned in Ps. 102, the writer of Hebrews is bringing additional information that brings more clarification to just who Yahweh truly is. In this case, Yahweh is at least both Father and Son.


In the current OT it says the same. Yet, in the NT, we have the Son also involved in the creation of everything. Of course, the Holy Spirit seemed to have been involved in creation according to Gen. 1:2.


Exactly. And that never changes in the NT.


Except that you don't. You contradict him, essentially calling him a liar.

Safe to say we disagree on this verse, but it is still interesting.
Here are few commentaries on them.

Hebrews 1:8 Commentaries: But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

biblehub.com

 

[soberxp]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was manifested in the flesh, the Father or the Son?

Jesus was not possessed by the devil or Satan, but was possessed by God. Therefore, he manifested the image of God. Can this be understood in this way?The father is in me.

Why you always thinking about the another way and against all other verse in the Bible?

If you always think Jesus Christ is God,It makes the God as a liar, he cheated all of us.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Who was manifested in the flesh, the Father or the Son?

Not a very good translation....

How do other translations render that verse? There is quite a variety.

Other translations of 1 Tim 3:16

In the Interlinear (original Greek) there is no “God”.....and there is no “He”, rendering that verse without identifying the subject directly.

bible hub Interlinear

But, it is directly talking about “godliness” that was mysteriously revealed in Jesus Christ...the only sinless human born of woman mentioned in the whole Bible...that is what this verse is about....it is not identifying Jesus as “God”....it is describing the “godliness” of the Christ, Jesus.

 

[soberxp]

Not a very good translation....

How do other translations render that verse? There is quite a variety.

Other translations of 1 Tim 3:16

In the Interlinear (original Greek) there is no “God”.....and there is no “He”, rendering that verse without identifying the subject directly.

bible hub Interlinear

But, it is directly talking about “godliness” that was mysteriously revealed in Jesus Christ...the only sinless human born of woman mentioned in the whole Bible...that is what this verse is about....it is not identifying Jesus as “God”....it is describing the “godliness” of the Christ, Jesus.

Yeah, right.
They don't understand the “godliness” is the image of God,also the deity, but never about "one true God himself".

 

[HealthyShape]

No, you didn’t address one that I mocked; you ignored the specifics to just re-iterate a general conclusion.

A nonsensical post, like many of yours.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Justified

Hebrews 1 is showing you the distinction between the Son of Man, who has companions and the all-powerful Sovereign God. God was not masquerading as a Son who loves righteousness and hates lawlessness. Only a mortal man, subject to death’s dominion, can be exalted beyond it.

Find the distinction and you will find the truth!

 

[HealthyShape]

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - Son of Man.
J 3:13

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
Col 2:9

"...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13

make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Mt 28:19

I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodoma and Gomorrha, and ye became as a brand plucked out of the fire: yet not even thus did ye return to me, says Yahweh.
Am 4:11 (Yahweh is talking about God in the third person)

 

[Hiddenthings]

"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - Son of Man.
J 3:13

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
Col 2:9

"...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13

make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Mt 28:19

I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodoma and Gomorrha, and ye became as a brand plucked out of the fire: yet not even thus did ye return to me, says Yahweh.
Am 4:11 (Yahweh is talking about God in the third person)

None of these verses contain a Trinitarian formula. While Jesus is shown to be perfected and justified by the Spirit, it’s easy to see how later readers constructed non-biblical notions from these texts.

God cannot grant life to God , only mortals receive eternal life from the Uncreated One.

 

[GodsGrace]

Most of that was not true.
The early Church was the WAY.
A favored collection of texts were chosen before the 4th century Ecumenical Councils. The Councils just accepted the list and it eventually was called a Canon.
The Catholic Church defined heresies as any belief that was different than theirs and was determined to promote one belief.....theirs. With Emperor Constantine at the head of the Church he considered anyone of another belief an enemy of the state.....and they were killed. Protestant would have definitely been considered heretics.

How many beliefs do you think Christianity should have?

This is EXACTLY the problem I'm speaking to....

 

[GodsGrace]

He did not use it as a title. It was a description.

A description that described the church at the time and
which description became the name of the early church.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the many big lies of history according to the Catholics.

Those that do not understand succession have a big problem.

If I'm the starter of a corporation
and my son is the President of said corporation
and I die
and pass title of CEO to my son
is that succession?

This is what happened with the Apostles.
Did the Apostles just die or did they pass on what they taught?

Did Jesus bless them with the Holy Spirit in John 20:23
and did this laying on of hands not pass down to others?


Acts 6:6
6 And they brought these men before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 13:1-3
1Now there were prophets and teachers at Antioch, in the church that was there: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were [a]serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set Barnabas and Saul apart for Me for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, when they had fasted, prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.


Laying on of hands was practiced by the Apostles.
It passed on AUTHORITY to the next generation.


And this has been practiced ever since.

 

[GodsGrace]

After Constitine saw the symbol of Christ in the sky he had the symbol painted on the shields of his army. He fought a vastly larger army but symbol on the shield struck fear in the hearts of the other army. (I cannot explain why) Either way he won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge on 28 October AD 312. At which point Christ became an important part of his pantheon of Gods he believed in.

Then around February 3rd 313 AD he issued the Edict of Milan. Which stopped the persecution of Christians and directed toleration.

In the year before the First Council of Constantinople in 381, Nicene Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire when Theodosius I, emperor of the East, and Gratian, emperor of the West, and Gratian's junior co-ruler Valentinian II issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380, which recognized the catholic orthodoxy, as defined by the Council of Nicaea, as the Roman Empire's state religion

Agreed on all.

All Constantine did, after his conversion, was to stop persecution of Christians.

Let's be clear:
The Christian religion existed before Contantine.

You always make it sound as if HE invented it or defined it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

You are correct in a sense, but it is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, "I will be", "He will be" who came down in and through the human Jesus the Son of God by birth, character and then by resurrection. The vision of Psalm 110:1 does not show three persons sitting upon God the Father's Throne, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, or two with God the Holy Spirit hovering. Psalm 110:1 shows that the human Jesus is invited to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne Rvelation 3:20-21.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Revelation 3:20-22 (KJV) 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 110:1

the LORD said to my Lord....

Who is David speaking to?
Who is David's Lord?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, he was the leader of the 12. He moderated the Chistian meeting in Jerusalem in chapter 15 of Acts. He made the declaration and wrote the letter regarding the Gentile-Christians. Paul and Peter and Barnabus made their case to him for him to make a judgement.

As I've often stated...
history did continue after the book of Acts.

This is from Gemini
But you could look it up on your own because history is history:


Yes, James—specifically James the Just, known as the brother of Jesus—is widely regarded in Christian tradition as the first Bishop of Jerusalem. He served as a pivotal leader in the early church, presiding over the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), and was recognized for his ascetic lifestyle and righteousness before his martyrdom around 62–63 AD.
Key details regarding James as the Bishop of Jerusalem:

• Leadership Role: While the New Testament does not explicitly use the title "bishop" for him, he is described as a, if not the, primary leader of the Jerusalem church.
• Identity: He is often called "James the Just" or "James the Brother of the Lord". Early church traditions, such as those recorded by Eusebius, hold that Peter, James, and John did not fight for leadership but instead appointed James the Just as the first bishop.
• Significance: He played a critical role in early Christianity, particularly in bridging the gap between Jewish and Gentile converts.
• Martyrdom: According to tradition, he was martyred by being thrown from the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[GodsGrace]

the Catholic religion the original deception, the first group of people claiming to be Christians who departed from the Doctrine of Christ and started praying to mary and other such sinful foolishness.

Let's keep it real up in here homie. View attachment 79005

Here's what's real:
The CC is the original church.
You don't have to take my word for it...
you could look it up yourself.
We have the internet nowadays....
it's really easy.
Not like when we actually had to READ and STUDY.

You should repent of lusting after this guy.

Stop lusting after Wes Huff?
Are you crrrrrazy?
Did you get a load of how handsome and muscular that guy is?

Actually, I'm lusting after you BB.
Wes Huff is just a substitute.

You're one funny dude.
Do you ever leave the house?

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God is omnipresent so He can be in Christ while still being in Heaven at the same time.

Omnnipresent sounds good to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

*Disclaimer! I'm not reading through 62 pages of this thread (just too long) in replying........(yet, it'll be yet another attempt at chewing up meat that younger believers have, so as not to become so choked on it, that in their desperation of "breathing?" They relent as THIS takes place:
Ezekiel 13:22
Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
(So?)
The "Problem and Idolatry" issue, is not from thinking or believing that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God!
As the Father thought it not robbery that Jesus Christ of Nazareth sit on His right side ON His throne in Heaven!
The "PROBLEM" stems from when the "OVER ROMANTICISM" in allowing the Agapeo Love part of our human nature in the "dissuading" by means of a combination of "seducing, vexating, and familiar" spirits that "pollute and corrupt" the believer's Spiritual nature!

And THIS is where (and how) the author of confusion causes Idolatry!
By the conjoining with NO differences between Father and Son!

Your post makes no sense.

But I will repeat:
THERE IS ONLY ONE YAWEH.

Father is YAWEH.
Son is YAWEH.
Holy Ghost is YAWEH.

You can take it or leave it.
But if you leave it,,,,
you cannot define yourself as Christian.

And I DO believe I see the word CHRISTIAN under your avatar.

 

[GodsGrace]

Brakelite has yet to see the fullness of the truth Paul bases his exhortation on, and you’re reaching for thin air. Go to Isaiah! If you don't go you will never know.

You didn't post scripture from Isaiah.
Where exactly do you think I should run to?

Let's look at Philippians since that is under discussion:

Pilippians 2
2 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [a]affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete [b]by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing [c]from [d]selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility consider one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and [h]being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death [i]on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


And let's look at


Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


Paul says that every knee will bow to Jesus.
Isaiah states that TO ME every knee will bow.

Question:

WHO is the ME in Isaiah 45:23

WHO is Paul speaking of in Philippians 2:10