Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Hiddenthings]

Certainly the Baptist Church I attended as an adolescent believed that. I listened to John MacArthur's Grace to You; he believed that. I listened to a lot of Evangelical teachers on the radio, I bought a lot of theology books, and I daresay most of Evangelicalism believes only Christians are saved.

When I first came here 5 years ago, I expressed the opinion that the Sheep and Goats parable MAY be saying that the Son of Man will sovereignly decide to save non-believers who treat those whom He considers "the least of my brethren" with kindness and compassion. Oh my. Did I get blasted. Salvation by works. Semi-Pelagian heresy. Can't remember if you-know-who brought up ecumenicalism. I've long been considered a heretic.

Acts 4:12 is where it's at on this subject however understanding the name is clearly important.

 

[Wrangler]

Did you actually read the entire thing thoroughly?

Yes.

From the article:

"What is striking about John 1:18 is that the earliest texts we possess of John 1:18 all read the same: μονογενὴς θεὸς [God]. Yet, the vast majority of all texts say μονογενὴς υἱός [Son]. So here we have the earliest attested reading standing against most of the rest of the tradition."

Perhaps you are reading this in a way that makes it seem your take is correct, when it’s not. The tradition that you espouse is wrong, the majority of texts say son.

For some reason, you keep making Appeal to Majority. Is the word in the source material referring to offspring or creator of all? Again, rather than address the point I make, you deflect. Got nothing to say ON POINT.
The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John.

 

[Wrangler]

Yet even Jesus himself said:

Jesus himself said the Father is the only true God. You just ignore this.

 

[Wrangler]

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

You are pretending lIke this is referring to 1 person rather than two persons.

 

[Lambano]

Acts 4:12 is where it's at on this subject however understanding the name is clearly important.

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

In the case of the Sheep and Goats parable (prophecy?) it is the Son of Man (Christ Himself) who sovereignly decides to save the non-believing sheep. That's pretty straight-forward. I think Acts 4:12 is covered there.

 

[Grailhunter]

What's your definition of "person"?

Well in this case it means individual.

JOH 20:28 Thomas answered him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God!"

Am I misunderstanding your statement above?

Yes were talking about Yeshua saying He was a God.....
The Apostles usually referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. In the case above doubt Thomas realized He was a God.

Agreed.
MAT 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Didn't make sense to me for years, because "name" wasn't pluralized????
Also agree that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are not names. Struggled with that too, for years. Finally came to the understanding that those are simply 'titles'. Been asking 'Brethren' for years what their Father's name was. Not one has ever said; "Father".

LOL It might surprise you to know that the names of God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is not in the Bible. They remove God the Father's name around 2600 years ago. God the Son's name was never in the Bible.....The word they use for His name Iēsous Ἰησοῦς actually means healer and no Greek was usually referred to with that unless they were a doctor. And of course the name of the Holy Spirit has never been revealed.

And nothing can be translated to Jesus, for one thing no one knows where it came from. No J's in the scriptures and where the name Jesus came from is anyone's guess.

 

[Grailhunter]

Probably more nit picking, but; I believe 'president' is also a 'title'. And Presidency is a 'position'.

correct

 

[Hiddenthings]

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

In the case of the Sheep and Goats parable (prophecy?) it is the Son of Man (Christ Himself) who sovereignly decides to save the non-believing sheep. That's pretty straight-forward.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27 And he (God) has given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Why does Christ being the Son of Man give him the authority to judge man?

 

[Lambano]

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27 And he (God) has given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Why does Christ being the Son of Man give him the authority to judge man?

Jesus just presents the parable/prophecy like it was common knowledge that the Son of Man HAS that authority.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus just presents the parable/prophecy like it was common knowledge that the Son of Man HAS that authority.

Because he never once doubted the promise of his Father.

Everything we learn about him shows not that he is God or that he pre-existed, but that, like us, he lived by faith and overcame with the same intensity we are called to manifest.

 

[NayborBear]

Name those churches.

By denomination?
Or?
Ones I've attended? Or used to attend?

Well? Usually, most Non-Denominational, Evangelical, NT churches.
Usually the Baptist or Southern Baptist churches do.
And?
Usually!
Most every new church "plant" iregardless of denomination under the pretense of the Great Commission!

And?
Nope! Not going to tell you of those churches I've attended. Although, I think there was a catholic church I attended that did. But that was long ago and don't quite remember.

 

[NayborBear]

And no, if some church is coloring eggs for Easter day, it does not mean such church is apostate.

It doesn't??!!
Pray tell! What does it mean then?

 

[Justified]

Yes.

No, you didn’t.

Perhaps you are reading this in a way that makes it seem your take is correct, when it’s not. The tradition that you espouse is wrong, the majority of texts say son.

Again, the source you provided says that the oldest manuscripts say "God." That means

For some reason, you keep making Appeal to Majority.

Yet it was you who literally just stated: "the majority of texts say son." Once again, please don't use things like "Appeal to Majority" when you clearly don't know how to apply it.

Is the word in the source material referring to offspring or creator of all? Again, rather than address the point I make, you deflect. Got nothing to say ON POINT.
The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John.

Not only did you not read the article, which was your own source, you didn’t read the quotes I provided from it. The author clearly states that he prefers "God," since it is in the oldest manuscripts. Just because "Son" is in the majority does not make it correct. Either way, as the author points out, the end meaning is not affected.

You are pretending lIke this is referring to 1 person rather than two persons.

Pretending? Is that why you literally ignored all the evidence I gave?

You have continually and repeatedly ignored evidence. I don't know if I've ever met such a dishonest debater, although this forum seems particularly full of such persons.

Jesus himself said the Father is the only true God. You just ignore this.

Not at all. In context, Jesus says that eternal life is knowing both him and the only true God. Then, just two sentences later he says:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

This is just one of many times Jesus claims that he actually preexisted with the Father, and that's aside from his claim to absolute existence, in John 8:58, which is something God alone has. So, we have to take a whole lot of other stuff into account in order to understand what he is saying in John 17:3. In no way whatsoever does it mean that he isn't also truly God.

 

[soberxp]

What's your definition of "person"?


JOH 20:28 Thomas answered him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God!"

Am I misunderstanding your statement above?

My lord It was said to Jesus Christ.
My God It was said to God.
If Jesus Christ is the God, Why not just saying that "My lord God" or "my God".

 

[Justified]

Yes you did

Prove it.

You don't know how Hebrews uses the word "better?"

I've already asked you to stop being so vague. I have no idea what you're getting at. Learn to make an argument using an actual sentence. Be precise and clear, otherwise there is no point in saying anything.

God "appointed (Christ) the heir of all things Heb 1:2.

There is nothing in this passage to support the claim that the Son was an “eternal person” within a Godhead. The Son is described as “appointed heir” (verse 2), showing that his position of power and authority is delegated, not innate.

Likewise, it is by inheritance (verse 4) that he has obtained a more excellent name, not by virtue of being a supposed co-equal person within a triune deity.

The phrase “by whom [through whom, RSV] he made the worlds” does not refer to the physical universe. The Greek word translated “worlds” is not kosmos but aiōn, meaning age, dispensation, or indefinite period of time. The passage is therefore speaking of the ages, not planets or galaxies.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone of all ages, antediluvian, patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile, and Millennial. The Seed was promised to Eve (Genesis 3:15), Abraham rejoiced to see Christ’s day by faith (John 8:56; cf. Galatians 3:8), and the sacrifices under the Law of Moses derived their meaning only because they pointed forward to Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:4, 10). The Law served as a custodian to bring people to Christ (Galatians 3:24). In this sense, the ages were constituted through Christ, since in Him they find their purpose and ultimate fulfillment.

Although Christ was the chief cornerstone in God’s purpose (1 Peter 2:6), foreordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20), He was not formed or manifested until “these last times.” He had no personal existence prior to being born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:31–35).

Thus, “he made the worlds” refers to the new creation, not the original creation. This is clarified in Hebrews 2:5:

“It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.”

The writer is explicitly addressing the world to come. Jesus is the creator of this coming order. The redeemed are described as a new creation, with Christ as their creator. It is Christ who will bring about the new heavens and new earth, wherein righteousness dwells.

No. There is no other meaning that can be had than the Son was the agent of the creation of all things. This is affirmed in John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Col. 1:16-17, and, more importantly, in Heb. 1:10-12, which means that Heb. 1:2 is also talking about the same thing.

Heb. 1:10-12 is absolutely clear that the Father says the Son created everything. It has absolutely nothing to do with "new creation":

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

This is initial creation, not "new creation."

New Creation is in view as clearly stated above - Hebrews 2:5.

You need to follow the authors arguments.

I'm following them. Heb. 2:1 begins with "Therefore," meaning that what is about to be said is based on all that came before.

There is no other meaning for Heb. 1:10-12 than that of the Father attributing Ps. 102:25-27 to the Son; a passage which clearly speaks of the original creation of all things.

 

[Wrangler]

Even in John 1, Jesus is not God.

 

[soberxp]

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;

The foundation of the earth in the beginning that is made human beings in the image of God.Even the earth is made in the image of God.

 

[Justified]

My lord It was said to Jesus Christ.
My God It was said to God.
If Jesus Christ is the God, Why not just saying that "My lord God" or "my God".

No, Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." The Greek literally says: "Answered Thomas and said to him the Lord of me and the God of me." And that was in a specific context that must not be ignored. Thomas clearly calls Jesus both his Lord and his God, for which Jesus offers no correction or rebuke.

Thomas's statement could perhaps be said to be the climax of John's gospel. From beginning to end John repeatedly shows us that in addition to being truly man, Jesus is truly God, just as the Father is, yet that he is not the Father nor another God.

 

[Justified]

The foundation of the earth in the beginning that is made human beings in the image of God.Even the earth is made in the image of God.View attachment 79100

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 

[soberxp]

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

Maybe just for you that is nonsense.