Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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Wrangler

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Again, the source you provided says that the oldest manuscripts say "God."

Not what I quoted from the source:

Nope. Sorry. Can't feed your relying into bad translations. From Examining the Textual Variant in John 1:18 | Ezra Institute
The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John.

For some reason, you want to disregard that consistency throughout John. The article I sourced also states:
a brief note should be offered here. Irenaeus (late 2nd century) would be considered earlier than B and contemporaneous with 75. The Latin text of Irenaeus’ writings reads “Son”

Other posters have made this point, which you seem have no problem skipping over, the verse in context. NOG No one has ever seen God. God’s only Son, the one who is closest to the Father’s heart, has made him known. No one has ever seen God is how the verse begins. For some reason, you think the verse contradicts itself as it continues. Let me repeat. No one has ever seen God. Many have seen Jesus. How you conclude the verse must be referring to Jesus as God from that is quite the display of mental gymnastics.

What is sad is the extent you are willing to go in eisgesis, in reading into unitarian text your trinitarian doctrine. You just don't see it. Let me repeat from my source ... The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John. And again, it's funny to see you just ignore the 4 points I made back on page 55. No point-by-point reply.

They do provide plural-scriptures precisely because it is NOT a Biblical teaching. Because there is a verse that teaches what day Adam was created, only one verse is needed.

Because no verse teaches what day Eve was created on, they rely on artificial synthesis, group unrelated verses, read into it what they want, change the meaning of words, do math or substitution. Whala! You can 'support' ANY doctrine this way.

I keep going back to the motive. What is the motive to claim the Bible "supports" what it does not explicitly teach? They make it seem the only thing we have to go on are these vague glimpses, which is totally not true. Scripture explicitly teaches teaches there is one God, whose name is YHWH, who we relate to as Father. Jesus affirms this is the only true God.
  1. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for them?
  2. Why do Jesus followers teach what Jesus did not?
  3. No Scripture says believing the trinity is a salvation issue. So, why do they have this burning passion for what is NOT a salvation issue?
  4. Why do they make this wholly contradictory idea - contrary to the Bible, contrary to logic, contrary to definition, contrary to language usage - seem like it's the central message of the Bible that one's salvation depends on when it's not?
Rev 1:1, the resurrected Jesus sitting on God's throne in heaven, given all authority in heaven and Earth is STILL not God as God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus the revelation. Not "the Father." God - in his unitarian nature gave this to Jesus.

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NayborBear

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Hebrews 1 is almost entirely about the superiority of the Son to the angels. In making the case that that is so, the writer of Hebrews has the Father strongly implying that the Son is also Yahweh, being the agent of creation, by saying that Ps. 102:25-27 is speaking of the Son.


Jesus was God, the Son, in human flesh; two natures, one person. That is the consistent witness of the NT.


What is this even supposed to mean?

Yet in chapter 2 Paul is showing us the contradiction of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (only begotten Son of Yah'-uh-'Vay) TO the angels. As well another place in the Bible.

Psalm 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Ok!
What happens in the "prophetic" words of Paul in verse 2 of Hebrews 1:
Hebrews 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
This?
Hasn't occurred.......YET!

Meaning?
This hasn't occurred.......YET!
Isaiah 4:2
In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Because?
This hasn't occurred.....YET!
Psalms 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So this war and these attempts by Yah'-uh-'Vays faithful warriors in making Psalms 110:1 come to pass?
RAGES ON!
 

NayborBear

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Don't have time now.
But you're saying that CONSTANTINE invented the Easter bunny and Halloween candy?

And what's wrong with celebrating the birth of JESUS CHRIST our GOD AND SAVIOR?
Titus 2:13

You're upset because it might not be the correct date?

It's a whole lot better than having someone define themselves as Christian who does not believe Jesus is God.

And your church history is sorely lacking.
If you've read early church HIStory? You would've seen that in the world PRE Contantine?
The "Church" was in the "war for its existence" AGAINST the Pagans as well as non-believing Jews and/or Israel.
So?
No! Constintine did NOT invent that which was already present amongst the pagans!
He DID however, FORCIBLY MAKE both sides (and I HATE to say it. but I have to, because it IS HIStory)

COMPROMISE!! Under penalties of ultimate proportions!

Christ
mas verses santa claus? (can you say traditions of man?)
(even though there are rumors about saying that Dec.25th is more the date of Christ's conception, which is STILL a good reason to celebrate)
 

HealthyShape

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It doesn't??!!
Pray tell! What does it mean then?
Cultural influence, of course. They do not worship pagan gods. Like you do not worship pagan gods just because you use English names for the days of the week or for planets that are derived from the names of pagan gods.

To be apostate, you really need to deny basic truth of Christianity, like the deity of Christ. A colored egg will not make you apostate, use some common sense.
 
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HealthyShape

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“No one has ever yet seen God.”...seems a pretty clear statement. How many people saw Jesus?... Can you tell me how “God” can be “begotten”? “
The verse explicitly says what it says. Jesus is God. Your "how can it be" is irrelevant, it is not an argument. We are not here to explain mechanisms, we are here to believe.

What is this saying?
If no one ever went to heaven before Jesus
It says Jesus came from heaven, so it reveals His preexistence.

What does it mean “fullness of deity”?.... It doesn’t say “Jesus is God”.
I think that the word "deity" is clear enough, nothing to debate here.

If you read that in Greek...it doesn’t say what is translated into English.
I read that in Greek (and I do not need any interlinear as you do) and it says what it says - Jesus is God.

Nowhere does it say that these three are one God.
It shows that all three are in baptism as separate distinct persons.

You said that Yahweh is talking about himself in the third person
No, I said that YHWH is talking about God in the third person, I did not say He is talking about himself. Both the Son and the Father are called both YHWH or God, interchangeably, throughout the Old Testament.
 
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HealthyShape

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For some reason, you keep making Appeal to Majority. Is the word in the source material referring to offspring or creator of all? Again, rather than address the point I make, you deflect. Got nothing to say ON POINT.
The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John.
I do not know if you are trolling or really so confused, but it is you who is making Appeal to Majority. The NIV is the most popular Bible version today. Does it mean it has to have every word and verse right, just because it is the most popular version?

Of course not. That is why the committees of experts constantly weight all the evidence we have, both internal and external, to reconstruct the original text and to create standard Greek editions for translators and scholars to use - Nestlé Aland, UBS. "It is the most common medieval reading of the verse" is not something that cancels everything else. Your own source says that.
 
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CTK

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Reflective narrative:

One God, Three Persons: How and why the First Three Commandments must be obeyed and why they are given to us separately​

For two thousand years Christians have tried to speak faithfully about the one God who has made Himself known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Israel was right to guard against any thought of multiple gods, for there is only one true God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet from the very beginning, that one God has chosen to reveal Himself in three distinct ways. This is not a Christian invention. It is the story Scripture itself tells: before Sinai, at Sinai, and after Sinai with the coming of the Messiah.

Before Sinai: Three Revelations Already Given

Long before Moses stood on the mountain, God was already making Himself known in three inseparable ways.

The Father, unseen.

The God of Abraham called His people out of idolatry, demanding their undivided allegiance (Gen 12:1–3; Exod 12:12). He revealed Himself as El Shaddai—God Almighty (Gen 17:1). Yet He warned, “You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” (Exod 33:20). The Father is the unseen source of all, the one true God who alone is worthy of worship.

The Spirit, drawing near.

From the beginning, God’s Spirit was active: hovering over the waters at creation (Gen 1:2), breathing life into Adam (Gen 2:7), filling Joseph with wisdom (Gen 41:38), leading Israel as a pillar of cloud and fire (Exod 13:21–22). Moses’ first encounter at the burning bush was a voice from fire, not an image (Exod 3:2–6). Israel later heard, “You heard a voice but saw no form” (Deut 4:12). The Spirit was God’s chosen way of being present with His people, without image or idol.

The Son, foreshadowed in visible form.

Even before the incarnation, God sometimes appeared in human likeness, pointing ahead to Christ, the true Image of God. The Angel of the LORD spoke with God’s own authority, and Hagar declared, “You are the God who sees me” (Gen 16:13; cf. Exod 3:2–6).

At the oaks of Mamre, Abraham lifted his eyes and saw three men standing before him; yet the narrative says, “the LORD appeared to him” and Abraham spoke with one of them as with God Himself (Gen 18:1–2, 22–33).

Jacob wrestled with a “man” and said, “I have seen God face to face” (Gen 32:30).

These were not idols fashioned by human hands, but living revelations given by God Himself—anticipations of the day when His Son would come as the perfect Image, showing the Father fully (John 14:9).

At Sinai: The Pattern Inscribed in the Commandments

When God gave His commandments, He could have given Moses one long sentence: “Worship Me alone, make no images, do not take My Name in vain.” Instead, He divided them into three separate words (Exod 20:3–7). Why? Because He was revealing the same three ways He had already drawn near, and would draw near again.

First Word — Who we worship (the Father).

“You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exod 20:3). The Father claims undivided loyalty: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD is one” (Deut 6:4–5). He is the God and Father of His people (Deut 32:6; Isa 63:16).

Second Word — How we approach (the Spirit).

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image” (Exod 20:4). Israel heard a voice but saw no form (Deut 4:12). God comes near on His own terms—by His Spirit who fills, guides, convicts, and indwells. The command protects His chosen way of presence from our attempts to control Him with man-made substitutes.

Third Word — How we bear His Name (the Son).

“You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exod 20:7). At Sinai God was already preparing His people for the true Image who bears His Name. He promised His Messenger with “My Name in him” (Exod 23:20–21), and then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders saw the God of Israel and ate and drank in His presence (Exod 24:9–11)—as Christians understand as the pre-incarnate Son, the visible One who can be seen without destroying the beholder. The prophets deepen this: a child called Mighty God (Isa 9:6) and the Son of Man given everlasting dominion (Dan 7:13–14). The command teaches God’s people to carry His Name truthfully, not emptily—fulfilled perfectly in the Son who bears the Father’s Name and manifests it to us (John 17:6), and who by His Spirit forms us into His image so we bear that Name with integrity.

After Sinai: The Messiah and the Full Revelation

In the fullness of time, the same three ways became complete in Christ and His sending of the Spirit.

The Father sent His Son, and Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father in heaven” (Matt 6:9). The one true God was revealed as Father of all who believe.

The Son came as the perfect Image: “Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). In Him the invisible God became visible without destroying us, because He came in human flesh to redeem.

The Spirit was poured out to indwell believers (Acts 2:1–4), convict of sin, guide into truth, and seal God’s people as His own (John 16:13–14; Eph 1:13–14).

Thus the pattern was not broken but fulfilled: the same God who revealed Himself before Sinai, and inscribed His revelation at Sinai, now reveals Himself fully in Christ and the Spirit poured out.

The Wisdom of Order

The sequence of the first three commandments is deliberate.

At Sinai (before the Messiah):

Allegiance to the Father (first).

Nearness by the Spirit, not images (second).

Bearing the Name, foreshadowing the Son (third).

Here the Spirit’s place before the visible Image guarded Israel against filling the gap with idols. God withheld the true Image until the appointed time.

In the Messiah (at the time of the cross):

The Father still claims allegiance.

The Son now comes first in visible glory, showing us the Father perfectly.

Only then does the Spirit indwell believers, empowering them to bear the Name.

The shift is purposeful: once Christ came, the danger of counterfeit images was ended, because the true Image was now revealed. Idolatry is silenced by fulfillment, not just prohibition.

One God, Not Three

This is not a new invention, nor a plurality of gods. From Eden onward, the one true God has revealed Himself in three personal ways:

The Father, who cannot be seen directly.

The Spirit, who draws near without form.

The Son, who shows us the Father perfectly.

The first three commandments were never meant to be just the first three “thou shalt nots.” They are God’s own explanation of how He would draw near to us, reveal His true Image, and make us bearers of His Name. And so, whether Jew or Gentile, we are not asked to invent clever illustrations of the Trinity or to reduce the mystery of God into a triangle, a chord, or three candles burning as one. Nor are we asked to solve the puzzle of “three Gods in one.” God Himself has already given us His definition—clear, sufficient, and living—in His first three commandments. They are not arbitrary prohibitions, but revelations of how the one true God draws near: the Father who claims us, the Spirit who indwells us, and the Son who shows us the Father perfectly.

Look no further. In these three words, God has already told us who He is and how He will be known.
 
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Hiddenthings

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Reflective narrative:

One God, Three Persons: How and why the First Three Commandments must be obeyed and why they are given to us separately​

For two thousand years Christians have tried to speak faithfully about the one God who has made Himself known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Israel was right to guard against any thought of multiple gods, for there is only one true God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet from the very beginning, that one God has chosen to reveal Himself in three distinct ways. This is not a Christian invention. It is the story Scripture itself tells: before Sinai, at Sinai, and after Sinai with the coming of the Messiah.

Before Sinai: Three Revelations Already Given

Long before Moses stood on the mountain, God was already making Himself known in three inseparable ways.

The Father, unseen.

The God of Abraham called His people out of idolatry, demanding their undivided allegiance (Gen 12:1–3; Exod 12:12). He revealed Himself as El Shaddai—God Almighty (Gen 17:1). Yet He warned, “You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” (Exod 33:20). The Father is the unseen source of all, the one true God who alone is worthy of worship.

The Spirit, drawing near.

From the beginning, God’s Spirit was active: hovering over the waters at creation (Gen 1:2), breathing life into Adam (Gen 2:7), filling Joseph with wisdom (Gen 41:38), leading Israel as a pillar of cloud and fire (Exod 13:21–22). Moses’ first encounter at the burning bush was a voice from fire, not an image (Exod 3:2–6). Israel later heard, “You heard a voice but saw no form” (Deut 4:12). The Spirit was God’s chosen way of being present with His people, without image or idol.

The Son, foreshadowed in visible form.

Even before the incarnation, God sometimes appeared in human likeness, pointing ahead to Christ, the true Image of God. The Angel of the LORD spoke with God’s own authority, and Hagar declared, “You are the God who sees me” (Gen 16:13; cf. Exod 3:2–6).

At the oaks of Mamre, Abraham lifted his eyes and saw three men standing before him; yet the narrative says, “the LORD appeared to him” and Abraham spoke with one of them as with God Himself (Gen 18:1–2, 22–33).

Jacob wrestled with a “man” and said, “I have seen God face to face” (Gen 32:30).

These were not idols fashioned by human hands, but living revelations given by God Himself—anticipations of the day when His Son would come as the perfect Image, showing the Father fully (John 14:9).

At Sinai: The Pattern Inscribed in the Commandments

When God gave His commandments, He could have given Moses one long sentence: “Worship Me alone, make no images, do not take My Name in vain.” Instead, He divided them into three separate words (Exod 20:3–7). Why? Because He was revealing the same three ways He had already drawn near, and would draw near again.

First Word — Who we worship (the Father).

“You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exod 20:3). The Father claims undivided loyalty: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD is one” (Deut 6:4–5). He is the God and Father of His people (Deut 32:6; Isa 63:16).

Second Word — How we approach (the Spirit).

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image” (Exod 20:4). Israel heard a voice but saw no form (Deut 4:12). God comes near on His own terms—by His Spirit who fills, guides, convicts, and indwells. The command protects His chosen way of presence from our attempts to control Him with man-made substitutes.

Third Word — How we bear His Name (the Son).

“You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exod 20:7). At Sinai God was already preparing His people for the true Image who bears His Name. He promised His Messenger with “My Name in him” (Exod 23:20–21), and then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders saw the God of Israel and ate and drank in His presence (Exod 24:9–11)—as Christians understand as the pre-incarnate Son, the visible One who can be seen without destroying the beholder. The prophets deepen this: a child called Mighty God (Isa 9:6) and the Son of Man given everlasting dominion (Dan 7:13–14). The command teaches God’s people to carry His Name truthfully, not emptily—fulfilled perfectly in the Son who bears the Father’s Name and manifests it to us (John 17:6), and who by His Spirit forms us into His image so we bear that Name with integrity.

After Sinai: The Messiah and the Full Revelation

In the fullness of time, the same three ways became complete in Christ and His sending of the Spirit.

The Father sent His Son, and Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father in heaven” (Matt 6:9). The one true God was revealed as Father of all who believe.

The Son came as the perfect Image: “Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). In Him the invisible God became visible without destroying us, because He came in human flesh to redeem.

The Spirit was poured out to indwell believers (Acts 2:1–4), convict of sin, guide into truth, and seal God’s people as His own (John 16:13–14; Eph 1:13–14).

Thus the pattern was not broken but fulfilled: the same God who revealed Himself before Sinai, and inscribed His revelation at Sinai, now reveals Himself fully in Christ and the Spirit poured out.

The Wisdom of Order

The sequence of the first three commandments is deliberate.

At Sinai (before the Messiah):

Allegiance to the Father (first).

Nearness by the Spirit, not images (second).

Bearing the Name, foreshadowing the Son (third).

Here the Spirit’s place before the visible Image guarded Israel against filling the gap with idols. God withheld the true Image until the appointed time.

In the Messiah (at the time of the cross):

The Father still claims allegiance.

The Son now comes first in visible glory, showing us the Father perfectly.

Only then does the Spirit indwell believers, empowering them to bear the Name.

The shift is purposeful: once Christ came, the danger of counterfeit images was ended, because the true Image was now revealed. Idolatry is silenced by fulfillment, not just prohibition.

One God, Not Three

This is not a new invention, nor a plurality of gods. From Eden onward, the one true God has revealed Himself in three personal ways:

The Father, who cannot be seen directly.

The Spirit, who draws near without form.

The Son, who shows us the Father perfectly.

The first three commandments were never meant to be just the first three “thou shalt nots.” They are God’s own explanation of how He would draw near to us, reveal His true Image, and make us bearers of His Name. And so, whether Jew or Gentile, we are not asked to invent clever illustrations of the Trinity or to reduce the mystery of God into a triangle, a chord, or three candles burning as one. Nor are we asked to solve the puzzle of “three Gods in one.” God Himself has already given us His definition—clear, sufficient, and living—in His first three commandments. They are not arbitrary prohibitions, but revelations of how the one true God draws near: the Father who claims us, the Spirit who indwells us, and the Son who shows us the Father perfectly.

Look no further. In these three words, God has already told us who He is and how He will be known.
Wow @Lambano, why is it that 3in1 believers limit God’s manifestation to three, when it’s clear there are innumerable angels, one of whom even carried the Name of Yahweh, along with all the saints?

It's a sad read and even sadder is the ignorant love filled eyes who are clearly drunk on credal wine.

1770021941842.png
When will they learn?
 
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Hiddenthings

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Reflective narrative:

One God, Three Persons: How and why the First Three Commandments must be obeyed and why they are given to us separately​

For two thousand years Christians have tried to speak faithfully about the one God who has made Himself known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Before the birth of Christ there was The Father, The Holy Spirit Power, The Angelic Host.

Let me instruct you on the later.

“Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.” (Exodus 23:21, ESV)

This single statement “My name is in him” is one of the most profound declarations in all of Scripture. It tells us that God placed His own divine authority, character, and purpose within the one He sent before Israel. In Hebrew thought, the Name is never a mere label; it represents God’s very being, His power, holiness, and saving intent. To carry God’s Name is to act with God’s full authorization @Lambano.

Here, that authority rested upon the angel of the LORD. He did not operate independently, nor merely as a messenger repeating instructions. He spoke with God’s voice, carried God’s judgment, and demanded obedience because God Himself was present in him. This is why rebellion against this messenger was treated as rebellion against God.

This principle does not stop in Exodus. It unfolds across the entire biblical story.

Israel itself was separated for the Name: “So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel, and I will bless them.” (Numbers 6:27)

Later, James explains that God is gathering a people for His Name (Acts 15:14). And Revelation looks forward to the day when that Name will be written in fullness upon the faithful:

“I will write on him the name of my God.” (Revelation 3:12)

The trajectory is clear: God places His Name first on a messenger, then on a people, and ultimately on those who overcome.

But the center of this revelation is Christ.

Jesus explicitly said: “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me.” (John 17:6)

I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known.” (John 17:26)

Christ did not merely speak about God’s Name, He embodied it. Paul confirms this with unmistakable clarity:

“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.” (Colossians 1:19) See the issue @Lambano ?
“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)

What was foreshadowed in Exodus, God placing His Name in a sent one, reaches its complete expression in Jesus. The angel bore the Name by delegation; Christ bears it in fullness. He is not simply authorized by God; He is the living manifestation of God’s character, purpose, and saving power in human form.

And remarkably, this is not where it ends.

Paul tells believers that this same fullness is God’s intention for us:

“That you may be filled with all the fullness of God.” (Ephesians 3:19) See the issue @Lambano ????

Just as the Name was in the angel, and just as it dwelt bodily in Christ, so now God works to place His Name upon His people through Christ by the Spirit. We are being shaped into living carriers of that Name, representatives of God’s authority and character in the world.

This reveals a consistent divine pattern:

God places His Name in whom He sends.
God reveals Himself through that vessel/agent.
God then extends that same calling to His people.

So Exodus 23:21 is not an isolated curiosity. It is a cornerstone. It shows us how God works: He does not remain distant. He puts His Name in a messenger, His fullness in His Son, and His life in those who belong to Christ.

To belong to Him, then, is not merely to believe certain doctrines, it is to become a people marked by His Name, transformed by His fullness, and sent in His authority.

That is the true power of “My name is in him.”

Will CTK understand these profound truths?
No...they won’t.

Will @GodsGrace understand them either?
No....they won’t.

Why not?
Because their thinking is already shaped by error, and that misunderstanding spills over into this forum.
 
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Lambano

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1. Should Christianity be defined or not?
2. Who should decide the definition of Christian?
So, why do you think Christianity needs to be defined? Christianity hasn't been monolithic since the Dark Ages. If it was even then. "Christianity" is currently an umbrella covering 45,000 denominations per Duck Duck Go's AI search assist.
 
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Lambano

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We could have the Trinity wrong (which we don't) but it's a way of explaining that Jesus is God without creating TWO GODS.
Yep, this whole goat rodeo is Christianity's attempt to do a logical work-around for the polytheism charge. But worship is a relationship, and we worship PERSONS, not "Divine Essences". People know this at the gut level, which is why this subject won't go away.
 

Hiddenthings

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Yep, this whole goat rodeo is Christianity's attempt to do a logical work-around for the polytheism charge. But worship is a relationship, and we worship PERSONS, not "Divine Essences". People know this at the gut level, which is why this subject won't go away.
This is why many people in mainstream Trinitarian churches avoid creedal language: their faith is lived as a relationship, not as abstract theology. In fact, many believers wouldn’t even recognize the Trinity the way it’s discussed here.
 
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Aunty Jane

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The verse explicitly says what it says. Jesus is God. Your "how can it be" is irrelevant, it is not an argument. We are not here to explain mechanisms, we are here to believe.


It says Jesus came from heaven, so it reveals His preexistence.


I think that the word "deity" is clear enough, nothing to debate here.


I read that in Greek (and I do not need any interlinear as you do) and it says what it says - Jesus is God.


It shows that all three are in baptism as separate distinct persons.


No, I said that YHWH is talking about God in the third person, I did not say He is talking about himself. Both the Son and the Father are called both YHWH or God, interchangeably, throughout the Old Testament.
I’m sorry but you really haven’t replied to anything I said...you doubled down and gave me excuses to believe what you want those verses to say....that is your call...I can’t tell you what to believe....but, at the end of the day when we all have to render an account to God’s appointed judge, no one will be able to say, “no one told me”.

There is not a single verse in the whole Bible where either Jesus or his Father clearly and unequivocally state that they are all part of one Godhead with the Holy Spirit. There is no godhead....those who introduced the trinity invented it.

To worship a false god of man’s making is to break the first Commandment. The god of Christendom doesn’t exist. The God of Jesus Christ is Yahweh...”the only true God”, identified by Jesus himself. (John 17:3) Jesus is the one he “sent”....if you don’t “know” them...really know them, salvation is lost.
Yahweh remains the God of Jesus even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

Jesus told us that an apostasy would overtake the Christian Faith after his death...Christendom pretends that it never happened. If an apostasy went on to become the accepted truth, then it would spread out into the whole world, characterised by disunity (1 Cor 1:10) and conflict because of “friendship with the world” (James 4:4) They will have blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15)

Step back and see what God sees.
 

Lambano

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This is why many people in mainstream Trinitarian churches avoid creedal language: their faith is lived as a relationship, not as abstract theology. In fact, many believers wouldn’t even recognize the Trinity the way it’s discussed here.
Agreed. To even discuss it, I had to familiarize myself with Greek philosophical concepts such as morphe, ousia, hypostasis, and Logos. While the internet has made such information readily available, how many laymen are going to do that? To most people, that would just trip their BS detectors. BZZZZTTTTT!
 

Lambano

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If we need to define Christianity, we could do worse than the Apostles' Creed. Except that "Holy (universal) Church" clause is booby-trapped. Maybe the "communion of saints" and "resurrection of the body" too.
 
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HealthyShape

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So, why do you think Christianity needs to be defined? Christianity hasn't been monolithic since the Dark Ages. If it was even then. "Christianity" is currently an umbrella covering 45,000 denominations per Duck Duck Go's AI search assist.
There are rather like 10 really distinct denominations, the rest are just local names, but with the same theology. And Trinity is accepted in all of them.

All those thousands of small local "denominations" called Christ Church, Grace Church etc. are mostly some kind of evangelical or baptist churches, sometimes charismatic/pentecostal.
 
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HealthyShape

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I’m sorry but you really haven’t replied to anything I said...you doubled down and gave me excuses to believe what you want those verses to say....that is your call...I can’t tell you what to believe....but, at the end of the day when we all have to render an account to God’s appointed judge, no one will be able to say, “no one told me”.

There is not a single verse in the whole Bible where either Jesus or his Father clearly and unequivocally state that they are all part of one Godhead with the Holy Spirit. There is no godhead....those who introduced the trinity invented it.

To worship a false god of man’s making is to break the first Commandment. The god of Christendom doesn’t exist. The God of Jesus Christ is Yahweh...”the only true God”, identified by Jesus himself. (John 17:3) Jesus is the one he “sent”....if you don’t “know” them...really know them, salvation is lost.
Yahweh remains the God of Jesus even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

Jesus told us that an apostasy would overtake the Christian Faith after his death...Christendom pretends that it never happened. If an apostasy went on to become the accepted truth, then it would spread out into the whole world, characterised by disunity (1 Cor 1:10) and conflict because of “friendship with the world” (James 4:4) They will have blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15)

Step back and see what God sees.
I did not expect that a Jehovah Witness, who actually has no business to be active in Christians only section of this forums, would accept that Jesus is God. You will rather try to delete the verses from the Bible, as your New World translation does and based upon similarly bad and ignorant/uneducated arguments you are presenting.

But the orthodox Christianity and the standard Bible teaches that Jesus is God. Case closed.
 

Lambano

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There are rather like 10 really distinct denominations, the rest are just local names, but with the same theology. And Trinity is accepted in all of them.

All those thousands of small local "denominations" called Christ Church, Grace Church etc. are mostly some kind of evangelical or baptist churches, sometimes charismatic/pentecostal.
I was going to call them "sects", but that word has a homonym problem.

If we were to define "Christianity", most of us would probably define it so that includes all our own beliefs and excludes the other guys'. (I think I picked a bad week to give up being cynical.)
 
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HealthyShape

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I was going to call them "sects", but that word has a homonym problem.
It would not change the fact that those churches are basically the same denomination, just without a regular connection with each other. Very similar theology, the same core beliefs, frequently also the same structure with a pastor etc.
 

HealthyShape

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Agreed. To even discuss it, I had to familiarize myself with Greek philosophical concepts such as morphe, ousia, hypostasis, and Logos. While the internet has made such information readily available, how many laymen are going to do that? To most people, that would just trip their BS detectors. BZZZZTTTTT!
I think that you do not need to learn anything philosophical regarding "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is one God". Almost nobody here discusses concepts like ousia or hypostasis, most heretics just limit their attacks to trying to rewrite the Bible that "God" does not mean God. Nothing truly philosophical about that.
 
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